When did Zhou Bo Tong reach a great's level?

[Wuxiakid]

Just wondering because I havnt really read the novel. I know that Zhou Bo Tong was inferior to HYS before he entered the cave as he lost badly to him. Did he reach the great's level through his 15 years of training in the cave after developing left hand right hand technique and hongming fist? Or was it when he learned 9 ying from Guo Jing? Or was it during LOCH that he has reached this level? what proof was there?

[WuxiaMaster]

From what I know, he became great level after developing left-right technique, but did not realize this until meeting Guo Jing.

[Ken Cheng]

Chow Bak Tung was already nearly equal to the Greats when he first appeared in LOCH. The gap between them was not large, even the Greats still held a slight advantage over him (probably about as much as they did over Kau Cheen Yan). The discovery of the other volume of the 9 Yum Jen Ging in Gwok Jing's possession seemed to provide a breakthrough to him in the development of his Left/Right Hand Technique because shortly thereafter, Chow Bak Tung would never again find himself at a martial arts disadvantage vs. any of the Greats.

[ChronoReverse]

9 Yin had nothing to do with L/R or Vacuum Fists


WuxiaMaster is correct. ZBT achieved at least Great status after he invented Vacuum Fists and L/R technique. At this point he had lower internal energy but his technique was strong enough to put him at minimum par with the Greats (likely better in fact). ZBT just never realized he could apply L/R in combat against one opponent.

9 Yin put him rather above the rest of the Greats but at this point in the story he refused to fight so it was a moot point. Later, everyone had 9 Yin (except HYS lol) and ZBT still avoided using its techniques.

[Ken Cheng]

9 Yin had nothing to do with L/R or Vacuum Fists


WuxiaMaster is correct. ZBT achieved at least Great status after he invented Vacuum Fists and L/R technique. At this point he had lower internal energy but his technique was strong enough to put him at minimum par with the Greats (likely better in fact). ZBT just never realized he could apply L/R in combat against one opponent.

9 Yin put him rather above the rest of the Greats but at this point in the story he refused to fight so it was a moot point. Later, everyone had 9 Yin (except HYS lol) and ZBT still avoided using its techniques.

Chow Bak Tung might have consciously avoided using the 9 Yum techniques, and he might well succeeded in avoiding using specific techniques such as 9 Yum Divine Claws, but I don't think he was entirely successful in blocking out its subconscious influence on his martial arts. For years and years, Chow Bak Tung was unable to break through with his Left/Right Hand Technique and Vacant Fists to reach true parity with the Greats, but shortly after receiving the second half of the 9 Yum Jen Ging, he makes this breakthrough. Jin Yong might not have been explicit about this, but reading into the subtext, it's not such a stretch that this is what likely happened.

[ChronoReverse]

Nope, you need to read it. There was no break-through from 9 Yin because ZBT never used L/R at all against HYS. He didn't even consider it a combat technique.

It was GJ's insight that if he used L/R as two cooperating people against a single target that his technique would definitely be more than enough to beat HYS that ZBT realized he had already exceeded HYS.

Hence his exclamation that he was going to leave the cave and then beat up HYS.

Before this point, L/R actually reduced ZBT's fighting power because the two independent arms did not cooperate and even fought against each other.

[pannonian]

Zhou Botong did eventually consciously use 9 yin in a fight, Demon-subduing fist (sounds like a Shaolin art) against Yang Guo at Hundred Flowers valley.

[tape]

Officially, I don't think ZBT reached Great status until after he met Gou Jing -- the fact that he had unrealized potential shouldn't really matter much.

Linghu Chong for example is probably many times more powerful even before Dugu 9 Jian, from the simple statement of Feng Qingyang that he is allowed to adapt his moves. Yet we can't really say that he was just as powerful before then.

Yang Guo reached a higher level from GWM's advice to concentrate on his own personal form rather than using bits and pieces of everything else.


Arguably, Guo Jing had huge potential before he met Hong Qigong since his power increased many folds just from learning one stance in one day.

There are many characters that only needed that one sentence of insight to bring them to a much higher level, and until that happened, they could have struggled for years before reaching some sort of breakthrough. So no, ZBT was not equal to the greats before Guo Jing even if he had the tools to be.

[Dirt]

I wonder how influential reading the 1st part of 9 Yin had on Zhou Botong creating Vacant Fist and L/R Technique? I personally do not think Zhou Botong could have reached Great level (much less surpass them) without 9 Yin.

[tape]

I'd imagine it helped with Vacant Fists a little bit since they're both Taoist theories, but L/R technique probably had nothing to do with 9 Yin.

[Ren Ying Ying]

Officially, I don't think ZBT reached Great status until after he met Gou Jing -- the fact that he had unrealized potential shouldn't really matter much.

Linghu Chong for example is probably many times more powerful even before Dugu 9 Jian, from the simple statement of Feng Qingyang that he is allowed to adapt his moves. Yet we can't really say that he was just as powerful before then.

Yang Guo reached a higher level from GWM's advice to concentrate on his own personal form rather than using bits and pieces of everything else.


Arguably, Guo Jing had huge potential before he met Hong Qigong since his power increased many folds just from learning one stance in one day.

There are many characters that only needed that one sentence of insight to bring them to a much higher level, and until that happened, they could have struggled for years before reaching some sort of breakthrough. So no, ZBT was not equal to the greats before Guo Jing even if he had the tools to be.

These aren't equivalent examples of "unrealized potential". ZBT had unrealized potential in that one sentence can drastically change the way he fights and therefore make an instant impact the moment the insight was directed. ZBT was immediately able to use his new fighting skill upon the realization.

LHC was not many times more powerful before DG9J even if he had the talent to adapt his moves because essentially DG9J and its theories are what had made him. Unless he was able to instantaneously learn DG9J or re-create DG9J on his own "adaptation" or whim, then this is not the same "unrealized potential" we are referring to.

Yang Guo didn't immediately improve upon GWM's comments either. He just went about to train in a different way that may have led him to improve more than had he trained in his previous method. But this all takes time and there was no instant impact.

And GJ is an even lesser example because learning one stance of the palm is essentially what made him improve. Anyone who had the same level of training/internal power that GJ had would've had the same effect if they learned the same stance. If that's considered "unrealized potential", then everyone has unrealized potential. Unless you are someone like Xu Zhu/Shi Po Tian who had a huge amount of internal power but no idea how to use it, and suddenly learns one simple move and destroys everyone with it, it really should not be regarded in the same light as ZBT's "unrealized potential".

[tape]

These aren't equivalent examples of "unrealized potential". ZBT had unrealized potential in that one sentence can drastically change the way he fights and therefore make an instant impact the moment the insight was directed. ZBT was immediately able to use his new fighting skill upon the realization.

LHC was not many times more powerful before DG9J even if he had the talent to adapt his moves because essentially DG9J and its theories are what had made him. Unless he was able to instantaneously learn DG9J or re-create DG9J on his own "adaptation" or whim, then this is not the same "unrealized potential" we are referring to.

Yang Guo didn't immediately improve upon GWM's comments either. He just went about to train in a different way that may have led him to improve more than had he trained in his previous method. But this all takes time and there was no instant impact.

And GJ is an even lesser example because learning one stance of the palm is essentially what made him improve. Anyone who had the same level of training/internal power that GJ had would've had the same effect if they learned the same stance. If that's considered "unrealized potential", then everyone has unrealized potential. Unless you are someone like Xu Zhu/Shi Po Tian who had a huge amount of internal power but no idea how to use it, and suddenly learns one simple move and destroys everyone with it, it really should not be regarded in the same light as ZBT's "unrealized potential".

For Linghu Chong, that one sentence of connecting his moves allowed him to go 100+ stances with TBG when he previously was unable to last for dozens. I'm not sure how that's different.

The other two I see your point that they received guidance in a more traditional sense rather than GJ just randomly asking something and sparking his thoughts.

Regarding ZBT, I did say he always had the tools to be equal/better, but the fact is he wasn't without that one suggestion. There are a lot of things where I am physically able to, and always was able to, but never did, so I wouldn't say I knew how to do it before I actually did. (whew that was a strange sentence to write)

[Ren Ying Ying]

For Linghu Chong, that one sentence of connecting his moves allowed him to go 100+ stances with TBG when he previously was unable to last for dozens. I'm not sure how that's different.

But that was the essence of DG9J. He was taught a higher level of martial arts theory, even if there were no actual stance taught.

On the other hand, GJ only pointed out something random/common sense rather than a higher theory or martial arts. Of course ZBT and "common sense" weren't exactly good friends so perhaps you can say it is almost like a higher level of theory for him.

[tape]

I'd be interested to know what Yue Buqun would say if LHC didn't learn anything more than that one sentence, but just used his regular sword art in that new dynamic manner. Would he say he's going the evil sword route again and force him to be crappy again, or approve that LHC reached a higher understanding of swordsmanship?

[hyoyatika]

Chow Bak Tung was already nearly equal to the Greats when he first appeared in LOCH. The gap between them was not large, even the Greats still held a slight advantage over him (probably about as much as they did over Kau Cheen Yan).

This is not true. ZBT was soundly whipped by HYS, thus, the need to hide in the cave.