Do you believe that Dook Goo Kau Bai could have met/fought Wong Seung?

[Ken Cheng]

Jin Yong never stated or hinted that Dook Goo Kau Bai and Wong Seung (the inventor of the 9 Yum Jen Ging) ever met and fought each other, but do you believe it's possible? The timing (generally) seems about right because both legendary warriors lived during the century between DGSD and LOCH, but that's hardly a guarantee that they would ever encounter each other, let alone battle each other. Nevertheless, a meeting/confrontation between the two has been a popular matter of speculation at these forums over the years. What do you think?

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

Didn't the Sword Devil mention injuring an Honourable Swordsman in his writing?

Could this have been Wong Seung?

[Ken Cheng]

Didn't the Sword Devil mention injuring an Honourable Swordsman in his writing?

Could this have been Wong Seung?

It is possible, and some fans have indeed so speculated.

[tape]

Was there any period of time where Huang Shang was famous? Wasn't he just a imperial worker that wasn't involved in wulin at all until the Ming sect incident, and then fled and hid for 40 years?

There doesn't seem to be time for people to have heard of him, and actively seek him out for a duel.

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

Was there any period of time where Huang Shang was famous? Wasn't he just a imperial worker that wasn't involved in wulin at all until the Ming sect incident, and then fled and hid for 40 years?

There doesn't seem to be time for people to have heard of him, and actively seek him out for a duel.

Wasn't it said that HS's defeat of the Ming Sect rocked the Wulin world. If it did and he disappeared then its likely that the Sword Devil would seek him out knowing how obsessed the Sword Devil was about finding a worthy opponent.

This would also explain why the Sword Devil never mentioned him by name as he respected HS desire to remain hidden.

[Ken Cheng]

Wasn't it said that HS's defeat of the Ming Sect rocked the Wulin world. If it did and he disappeared then its likely that the Sword Devil would seek him out knowing how obsessed the Sword Devil was about finding a worthy opponent.

This would also explain why the Sword Devil never mentioned him by name as he respected HS desire to remain hidden.

I would call the fight between Wong Seung and the associates of the Ming Cult a draw; he killed many of them, but was seriously wounded in the fight himself (it makes you wonder if DGKB himself was an associate of the Ming Cult).

I'm also wondering if a *very* young Wong Chung Yeung (as in a child or adolescent) might also have been a contemporary of DGKB and/or WS.

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

I would call the fight between Wong Seung and the associates of the Ming Cult a draw; he killed many of them, but was seriously wounded in the fight himself (it makes you wonder if DGKB himself was an associate of the Ming Cult).

I'm also wondering if a *very* young Wong Chung Yeung (as in a child or adolescent) might also have been a contemporary of DGKB and/or WS.

Even if it was a draw it was still an amazing accomplishment.

Is the Ming Cult/Sect the same one as the one in HSDS?

If it was then I doubt the Sword Devil was directly linked to them as there was no record in the Cult of him. Surely if they had such a formidable fighter they would have remembered him.

[Ken Cheng]

Is the Ming Cult/Sect the same one as the one in HSDS?

Yep, though a good half dozen generations earlier.

If it was then I doubt the Sword Devil was directly linked to them as there was no record in the Cult of him. Surely if they had such a formidable fighter they would have remembered him.

Ming Cult records might have been pretty spotty pre-HSDS. Yeung Siu compiled a pretty comprehensive history of the Ming Cult for Cheung Mo Gei, but I wonder if any such text existed prior to that.

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

Yep, though a good half dozen generations earlier.



Ming Cult records might have been pretty spotty pre-HSDS. Yeung Siu compiled a pretty comprehensive history of the Ming Cult for Cheung Mo Gei, but I wonder if any such text existed prior to that.

The Cult's record seemed to be pretty good at remembering leaders and prominent members so its unlikely the Sword Devil was completely unrecorded.

Also didn't the Cult have the Great Universal Stance? I am surprised no one used it against WS.

[Ken Cheng]

The Cult's record seemed to be pretty good at remembering leaders and prominent members so its unlikely the Sword Devil was completely unrecorded.

Also didn't the Cult have the Great Universal Stance? I am surprised no one used it against WS.

You mean the Keen Kwun Dai Loi Yee? That technique has one very annoying limitation: it doesn't work if the opponent has higher inner power than the KKDLY user. If Wong Seung were using 9 Yum inner power at full capacity, perhaps nobody fighting on the Ming Cult's side would have enough inner power to match him, KKDLY or no KKDLY.

[pannonian]

You mean the Keen Kwun Dai Loi Yee? That technique has one very annoying limitation: it doesn't work if the opponent has higher inner power than the KKDLY user. If Wong Seung were using 9 Yum inner power at full capacity, perhaps nobody fighting on the Ming Cult's side would have enough inner power to match him, KKDLY or no KKDLY.

Imagine Xuzhu with Qian Kun Da Nuo Yi...

[Doc Kwok]

I would call the fight between Wong Seung and the associates of the Ming Cult a draw; he killed many of them, but was seriously wounded in the fight himself (it makes you wonder if DGKB himself was an associate of the Ming Cult).

This misinformation never seems to go away...

It was not mentioned that he sustained any injuries against the Ming Cult members (he may well have, but if so, they were not severe). The problem came later when the relatives and friends of those he killed ganged up on him, after the duels.

I don't think Huang Shang would have qualified as a 'virtuous warrior' - he was merely an obedient government official. As far as wulin goes, he would have been a pariah, since he blatantly violated wulin rules (even if it was out of ignorance). Hiding away for forty years to plot revenge is also hardly an example of virtuous behaviour.

[Ken Cheng]

This misinformation never seems to go away...

It was not mentioned that he sustained any injuries against the Ming Cult members (he may well have, but if so, they were not severe). The problem came later when the relatives and friends of those he killed ganged up on him, after the duels.

Hence, associates of the Ming Cult, *not* Ming Cult members. I chose the word "associates" for a very specific reason.

I don't like using the phrase "friends and relatives" in this context because somehow, the phrase just looks and sounds...lame. It sounds like Wong Seung was fighting the Ming Cult members' gossipy aunties or crazy old uncles, and that might very well have been true (we'll never really know), but calling them "associates" (e.g. not members, but people who were familiar with and close to the members) takes some of the semantic lameness out of it.

That OK with you, Doc?

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

Could someone tell me exactly what happened after HS first encounter with the Ming Cult?

[Doc Kwok]

Hence, associates of the Ming Cult, *not* Ming Cult members. I chose the word "associates" for a very specific reason.

I don't like using the phrase "friends and relatives" in this context because somehow, the phrase just looks and sounds...lame. It sounds like Wong Seung was fighting the Ming Cult members' gossipy aunties or crazy old uncles, and that might very well have been true (we'll never really know), but calling them "associates" (e.g. not members, but people who were familiar with and close to the members) takes some of the semantic lameness out of it.

That OK with you, Doc?

Semantics, semantics .

OK, fair enough, I missed that one word. Although replying to 'HS's defeat of the Ming Sect' with 'fight between Wong Seung and the associates of the Ming Cult' (which are separate but related fights) is a bit misleading...

[Ken Cheng]

Could someone tell me exactly what happened after HS first encounter with the Ming Cult?

The *associates* (or "friends and relatives", as Doc prefers) of the Ming Cult went after Wong Seung and his family to avenge the Ming Cult *members* whom Wong Seung slew or injured. Wong Seung's entire family apparently died in these assaults, and Wong Seung himself was gravely injured. Wong Seung went into hiding for the next forty years, to complete the development of the 9 Yum Jen Ging in preparation to avenge his family.

When he was finally ready, however, all of his former enemies had died of other causes. All that was left was one pathetic old lady, whom he felt so sorry for that he chose to adopt her into his household rather than kill her. Hence, though not "virtuous" by conventional wulin standards, Wong did seem develop a sense of compassion late in life.

[BlackRaven]

if Jin Yong is still up for writing another best seller, a short story about either DGQB or HS would be amazing. Even if the book is about DGQB, and HS makes a cameo, or vice-versa, that's fine too.

I don't think DGQB met/fought HS. Otherwise HS would have mentioned the fierceness of DG9J in his 9 Yin book, like he did when he recorded Heart Shattering Palms and White Bone Claws, techniques used by his opponents.

If HS dueled/sparred with DGQB, perhaps his 9 Yin manual would be even stronger? Maybe he would have written down some way to counter DG9J, if that is even possible. I'm not implying that HS and the current 9 Yin are inferior to DGQB's martial arts, I think the personal skill level of the user would determine the victor, both are wonderful skills.

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

Then I fail to see how he does not qualify.

Yes he worked for the government but he was not corrupt. The beggars guild often worked with the government and that never stained their name.

His disappearance to perfect his art in order a avenge his family was also in keeping with Wulin rules.

If he spent that time using slander or getting soldiers to help then yes that could be seen as unvirtuous, but he didn't.

His work also gives some indication of his virtue as the final part of 9 Yin was written in Sanskrit a language exclusively used by Buddhist.

So he was fully aware of how dangerous his work was and took precautions to ensure only someone well versed in Buddhist scriptures (so likely to be of high morality) would be able to learn it.

[Ken Cheng]

If he spent that time using slander or getting soldiers to help then yes that could be seen as unvirtuous, but he didn't.

When Wong Seung first went to the Ming Cult's headquarters (Gwong Ming Peak?) to challenge them, he brought the Sung army with him. During his confrontation with the Ming Cult leaders, however, Wong Seung agreed to one-on-one wulin style duels instead of using the army to overwhelm them. If not exactly virtue, Wong Seung at least had some pride and was willing to settle things the wulin way.

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

When Wong Seung first went to the Ming Cult's headquarters (Gwong Ming Peak?) to challenge them, he brought the Sung army with him. During his confrontation with the Ming Cult leaders, however, Wong Seung agreed to one-on-one wulin style duels instead of using the army to overwhelm them. If not exactly virtue, Wong Seung at least had some pride and was willing to settle things the wulin way.

If he brought the army to avenge a personal grudge then that would be violating wulin rules.

But he was acting on orders of the Emperor and was only a Civil Servant at the time so his actions cannot be seen as going against the rules of wulin.