Shades of Grey

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

Jin Yong has given us a lot of memorable villains, some powerful, others cunning and a few downright weird. But are any of his main villains ever black and white or is there always shades of grey in them.


Examples:


Western Venom: Completely amoral and ruthless. Get in his way and you are dead. But he was also a loving father to both his biological and adopted son.
Dongfang Bubai: Tyrant and sexual pervert (by the standards of the time). But died trying to protect his lover.
Golden Wheel Monk: Cowardly mercenary. But treated Guo Xiang well and sacrificed himself to save her in the latest edition.
Murong (father and son): Again amoral and ruthless even to those nearest to them. But their actions can be seen as patriotic.


Did JY ever give us a straight up evil villain or did he always give them some redeeming feature?

[pannonian]

Yue Buqun and Zuo Lengchan seemed pretty irredeemable. Gongsun Zhi also.

[yangguo_]

Was Yang Kang redeemable at the end?

[pannonian]

Was Yang Kang redeemable at the end?

He was a Jin patriot, and a competent leader at that. From his foster country's perspective, he was much better than most of the "heroes" in HSDS, who got praised for their heroism in the face of Mongolian coercion, and far better than Zhou Zhiruo, who is one of the more popular characters in the trilogy.

[BlackRaven]

Yue Buqun and Zuo Lengchan seemed pretty irredeemable. Gongsun Zhi also.

I agree that Yue and Zuo are both ambitious villains, but I think Yue is more ruthless than Zuo. Yue Buqun didn't bat an eye when his wife was threatened, he had no qualms about sacrificing her. It may be the case for his daughter as well.

On the other hand, Zuo at least cared for his son. When Ren Woxing threatened to murder the relatives of the assembled heroes in Shaolin, Zuo genuinely feared for his son.

[yangguo_]

Then was Miejue redeemable?

[pannonian]

Then was Miejue redeemable?

She cared about her sect, Compare with Yue Buqun who didn't give a cent about what happened to Huashan.

[Ian Liew]

Ding Chuqiu seemed like a two-dimensional pantomime villain.

[Trien Chieu]

In wuxia, I prefer black and white over shades of grey. I prefer villains like Kong Kum in The Twin where he is extremely evil including willing to eat his only son in order to learn powerful martial art.

[Ken Cheng]

He was a Jin patriot, and a competent leader at that.

I don't know how sincere his "patriotism" was. He had a great amount of self-interest tied into the Jin prevailing.

As for "competent leader," that doesn't quite fit either. Yeung Hong's schemes were all pretty quarter-baked and none ever really materialized into a victory.

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

I don't know how sincere his "patriotism" was. He had a great amount of self-interest tied into the Jin prevailing.

As for "competent leader," that doesn't quite fit either. Yeung Hong's schemes were all pretty quarter-baked and none ever really materialized into a victory.

True, but he did genuinely care about the women in his life even if he valued his privileges more.

I see him more as a weak spoilt child more than a villain.

[Ken Cheng]

True, but he did genuinely care about the women in his life even if he valued his privileges more.

Yeung Hong sincerely loved his mother; that's about as far as his sincerity went.

I *really* don't know about his treatment of the snake-charmer girl/Muk Lim Chi: I think he just saw them as sex objects.

I see him more as a weak spoilt child more than a villain.

I think he qualifies as a villain, but just a rather pathetic one.

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

Yeung Hong sincerely loved his mother; that's about as far as his sincerity went.

I *really* don't know about his treatment of the snake-charmer girl/Muk Lim Chi: I think he just saw them as sex objects.



I think he qualifies as a villain, but just a rather pathetic one.

I was thinking more of the second edition of the character. I agree the first edition version was pretty unlikable, but in later editions he showed genuine affection for MLC.

You can almost see him as a counter point to GJ, ie what happens when you have a mother that raises you wrong.

[pannonian]

I don't know how sincere his "patriotism" was. He had a great amount of self-interest tied into the Jin prevailing.

As for "competent leader," that doesn't quite fit either. Yeung Hong's schemes were all pretty quarter-baked and none ever really materialized into a victory.

Yang Kang managed to muster quite a force at the encounter at the Drunken Fairy Inn, and but for Ke Zhen E's sense of navigation, would have eliminated 3 potentially hostile Greats, the Quanzhen 6, and Guo Jing (the ambush was planned by Yang Kang).

As for his patriotism, even if there was a healthy amount of self-interest involved, it was still commitment to his national cause. Genghis reorganised the affairs of the steppes to revolve around himself, and he is one of the exemplars of "heroism" in LOCH. In his own way, Wanyan Honglie and to a lesser extent Yang Kang can also be seen as an equivalent hero for the Jin. In the later HSDS, the orthodox sects were praised for their patriotic duty and heroism in the face of danger, but until the attack on Shaolin, they always put their sect's interests ahead of the national cause. From that perspective, Yang Kang was more deeply committed to his national cause than the orthodox sects were to theirs in HSDS.

[Ian Liew]

That Yang Kang was still loyal to the Jin by the time things were going against his country indicates that he would have proudly fallen in battle with Wanyan Honglie. If he was at Samarkand, captured, and offered freedom by Guo Jing and Genghis Khan if he'd renounce his Jin heritage, I can see him choosing to die with Wanyan Honglie, even if Genghis were to offer him an official position.