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Thread: If Ng 3 Gwai's insurrection had succeeded, would he have restored Han cultural norms?

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default If Ng 3 Gwai's insurrection had succeeded, would he have restored Han cultural norms?

    I'm presently rewatching DUKE OF MT. DEER (1984 TVB edition), and it's caused me to consider this turning point of Chinese history:

    Ng 3 Gwai's insurrection against the Qing Dynasty failed, but what if the insurrection had succeeded? Ng 3 Gwai was an ethnic Han and previously a military leader in the Ming Dynasty. Had he succeeded in overthrowing the Qing and establishing his own dynasty, would Ng have restored Han cultural norms (e.g. abolition of the laws against Han-style dress and hairstyles), or would he have continued to perpetuate Manchurian norms?

    It would have been interesting had people in China dressed in traditional Han styles right up until the 20th Century.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    I'm presently rewatching DUKE OF MT. DEER (1984 TVB edition), and it's caused me to consider this turning point of Chinese history:

    Ng 3 Gwai's insurrection against the Qing Dynasty failed, but what if the insurrection had succeeded? Ng 3 Gwai was an ethnic Han and previously a military leader in the Ming Dynasty. Had he succeeded in overthrowing the Qing and establishing his own dynasty, would Ng have restored Han cultural norms (e.g. abolition of the laws against Han-style dress and hairstyles), or would he have continued to perpetuate Manchurian norms?

    It would have been interesting had people in China dressed in traditional Han styles right up until the 20th Century.
    My guess is that if he did succeed, then he would indeed abolish the Qing customs - not because of any loyalty towards the Han, but rather to cement the idea that he had defeated them in everyones' minds.

    I wonder what kind of emperor he would have become? My guess is that he would behave much like Zhu Yuanzhang, ruthless and paranoid, killing all his enemies, real and imagined. The result would, ironically, probably indeed be very much like a Ming dynasty Mark II, though the Ming loyalists would thoroughly deny it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Kwok View Post
    My guess is that if he did succeed, then he would indeed abolish the Qing customs - not because of any loyalty towards the Han, but rather to cement the idea that he had defeated them in everyones' minds.

    I wonder what kind of emperor he would have become? My guess is that he would behave much like Zhu Yuanzhang, ruthless and paranoid, killing all his enemies, real and imagined. The result would, ironically, probably indeed be very much like a Ming dynasty Mark II, though the Ming loyalists would thoroughly deny it.
    I also wonder if Ng 3 Gwai would have claimed the dynastic name of Ming for himself, to lend an air of (supposed) legitimacy to his rule. Though the true Ming diehards would object, the ignorant masses might embrace the idea of a "restoration" of the "old" dynasty (even though it wouldn't really be the old dynasty).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    I also wonder if Ng 3 Gwai would have claimed the dynastic name of Ming for himself, to lend an air of (supposed) legitimacy to his rule. Though the true Ming diehards would object, the ignorant masses might embrace the idea of a "restoration" of the "old" dynasty (even though it wouldn't really be the old dynasty).
    He claimed the name of 'Zhou' for his dynasty (which had already been used by a previous dynasty...).

    One of the main points of DOMD is that the masses generally don't care who sits on the throne as long as they are happy and well-fed. The horrors of both the fallen Ming dynasty and the rise of the Qing dynasty were still fresh on peoples' minds at the time, so while they might welcome an end to the Qing, they certainly would not want a return to the corrupt Ming. This was a point brought up by Li Xihua (cut completely from the '84 adaptation), who suggested that Chen Jinnan or a member of the Mu royalty take up the throne after expelling the Qing, rather than let an unworthy descendant of the Ming royalty take the throne just because of their ancestry. Needless to say, this idea was not well received. It showed that both Tiandihui and the Mu family were fighting mainly out of blind loyalty, nationalism and racism rather than out of serious concern for the people, which limits their support from the populace and doomed them to failure.

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