Would XLN be considered at Great

**Ken Cheng** · 05-18-15, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by tape

The context and author subtext was completely different. Both ZZR and XLN had lower inner power than their opponents, but ZZR was using a technique that wasn't even that great to begin with (Whip techniques and 9 Yin Claws), as well as taking a crash course in it. XLN on the other hand had as perfect a technique that could be imagined at that point, and used it flawlessly.

XLN is more like Linghu Chong than a Zhou Ziruo; using superior techniques to compensate for inner power up to a certain point. ZZR just flat out uses trickery and sneak attacks.

XLN also handily defeated Gongsun Zhi later whom Huang Rong/Li Mochou were not confident in taking down. In terms of "real martial arts" or whatever it's possible Huang Rong is better, but XLN would take it rather easily imo in an actual fight.

I think Little Dragon Girl was lucky (via author agency) that she pretty much avoided having to fight all the people in ROCH who *could* have beaten her (e.g. Gwok Jing, Chow Bak Tung, and likely East Heretic and South Emperor). Even the Golden Wheel Monk, who had sufficient power to defeat her, made the tactical error of trying to compete speed (her forte, not his) with her rather than fighting from his own strength, which just might have enabled him to win. I don't see Gwok Jing, Chow Bak Tung, Wong Yerk See, or 1 Deng making that same mistake.

But we'll never know; Jin Yong avoided having them fight, both because it wasn't necessary for the plot, and possibly because he would be able to avoid answering that question.

**pannonian** · 05-18-15, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by Ken Cheng

I think Little Dragon Girl was lucky (via author agency) that she pretty much avoided having to fight all the people in ROCH who *could* have beaten her (e.g. Gwok Jing, Chow Bak Tung, and likely East Heretic and South Emperor). Even the Golden Wheel Monk, who had sufficient power to defeat her, made the tactical error of trying to compete speed (her forte, not his) with her rather than fighting from his own strength, which just might have enabled him to win. I don't see Gwok Jing, Chow Bak Tung, Wong Yerk See, or 1 Deng making that same mistake.

But we'll never know; Jin Yong avoided having them fight, both because it wasn't necessary for the plot, and possibly because he would be able to avoid answering that question.

The Quanzhen Five came out specifically with the aim of using power to compensate for technique. Xiao Longnu rendered the strategy irrelevant with speed that made the technique indiscernable. Four of the five were wounded within a short while. There were no other factors during the fight with the Quanzhen masters, just a straight out fight between her and the five masters.

**Ken Cheng** · 05-18-15, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by pannonian

The Quanzhen Five came out specifically with the aim of using power to compensate for technique. Xiao Longnu rendered the strategy irrelevant with speed that made the technique indiscernable. Four of the five were wounded within a short while. There were no other factors during the fight with the Quanzhen masters, just a straight out fight between her and the five masters.

I'm not certain that the Cheun Jen 5 Elders, even collectively, have the equivalent inner power of a Great. When there were seven of them in LOCH, they certainly couldn't play the power game against a Great, and they were two down by that point in ROCH.

Additionally, Little Dragon Girl's Double Sword Technique was dependent on having swords in hand. If you're matching up two fighters...and one is dependent upon weapons, while weaponry is irrelevant for the other, I'd give the nod to the one for whom weaponry is irrelevant.

That was sort of Dook Goo Kau Bai's idea: the better he got, the less relevant the actual weaponry became. The better the Greats got, the less we saw them actually using their weapons.

**tape** · 05-18-15, 06:14 PM

Originally Posted by Ken Cheng

I'm not certain that the Cheun Jen 5 Elders, even collectively, have the equivalent inner power of a Great. When there were seven of them in LOCH, they certainly couldn't play the power game against a Great, and they were two down by that point in ROCH.

Additionally, Little Dragon Girl's Double Sword Technique was dependent on having swords in hand. If you're matching up two fighters...and one is dependent upon weapons, while weaponry is irrelevant for the other, I'd give the nod to the one for whom weaponry is irrelevant.

That was sort of Dook Goo Kau Bai's idea: the better he got, the less relevant the actual weaponry became. The better the Greats got, the less we saw them actually using their weapons.

1. In terms of pure power, I really do believe the 5 Elders (and 7 in LOCH) would absolutely be greater than the Greats. With just two Quanzhen members launching a palm attack against Mei Chaofeng, she instantly thought a Great level fighter had appeared because there was no way that amount of power could be generated otherwise. The problem against a Great level fighter is that they wouldn't foolishly match palms against them when they're standing together joining forces like in all those wuxia series.

2. This point is really moot if the weapon is a regular sword. I can accept it for the HIS, but these are fighters who live in the martial world. If a sword is their weapon, a sword will be nearby. Besides, what is this a counter-point to? I thought this argument was generally about XLN vs HR, and both are strongest with weapons.

3. The Greats didn't use weapons because they were so far above their competition. Once the going gets tough, it's directly quoted that Hong Qigong, Ouyang Feng, Golden Wheel Monk, and Yang Guo are all stronger with weapons. Dugu Qiubai is entirely different in that he somehow is reaching a level where he is stronger without the weapon.

**Dirt** · 05-19-15, 02:07 PM

The Quanzhen Elders had no chance against Xiao Longnu. The Elders were the epitome of Wang Chongyang's martial arts via 9yin theory that combined their internal power. But Xiao Longnu was the ultimate expression of Lin Chaoying's martial arts that combined Quanzhen and Gumu arts via Zhou Botong's L/R technique. This was the clearest indicator that Lin Chaoying defeated Wang Chongyang (in martial arts).

Wang = internal... Lin = external???

The possibilities were Wang's internal and Lin's external were combined together........ It just wasn't meant to be...

**Western Eccentric** · 08-16-19, 06:15 AM

Originally Posted by Ken Cheng

I think that the fight at the Chung Yeung Palace was a one-time overperformance, dependent upon specific circumstances, by Little Dragon Girl rather than an accurate reflection of her true martial arts level. She was fighting WAY above her actual level by utilizing the element of surprise to her advantage. What we saw Little Dragon Girl do at Chung Yeung Temple anticipates what we would see Chow Chi Yerk do at Shaolin a century later.

It's not "over perfomance" at all if We consider her fight against GSZ which even when "sick" (due to LMC poison) she could beat GSZ which at that time even LMC/HR couldn't handle GSZ 1 on 1..

**Ken Cheng** · 08-16-19, 10:19 AM