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Thread: Would XLN be considered at Great

  1. #21
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    The context and author subtext was completely different. Both ZZR and XLN had lower inner power than their opponents, but ZZR was using a technique that wasn't even that great to begin with (Whip techniques and 9 Yin Claws), as well as taking a crash course in it. XLN on the other hand had as perfect a technique that could be imagined at that point, and used it flawlessly.

    XLN is more like Linghu Chong than a Zhou Ziruo; using superior techniques to compensate for inner power up to a certain point. ZZR just flat out uses trickery and sneak attacks.

    XLN also handily defeated Gongsun Zhi later whom Huang Rong/Li Mochou were not confident in taking down. In terms of "real martial arts" or whatever it's possible Huang Rong is better, but XLN would take it rather easily imo in an actual fight.
    I think Little Dragon Girl was lucky (via author agency) that she pretty much avoided having to fight all the people in ROCH who *could* have beaten her (e.g. Gwok Jing, Chow Bak Tung, and likely East Heretic and South Emperor). Even the Golden Wheel Monk, who had sufficient power to defeat her, made the tactical error of trying to compete speed (her forte, not his) with her rather than fighting from his own strength, which just might have enabled him to win. I don't see Gwok Jing, Chow Bak Tung, Wong Yerk See, or 1 Deng making that same mistake.

    But we'll never know; Jin Yong avoided having them fight, both because it wasn't necessary for the plot, and possibly because he would be able to avoid answering that question.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    I think Little Dragon Girl was lucky (via author agency) that she pretty much avoided having to fight all the people in ROCH who *could* have beaten her (e.g. Gwok Jing, Chow Bak Tung, and likely East Heretic and South Emperor). Even the Golden Wheel Monk, who had sufficient power to defeat her, made the tactical error of trying to compete speed (her forte, not his) with her rather than fighting from his own strength, which just might have enabled him to win. I don't see Gwok Jing, Chow Bak Tung, Wong Yerk See, or 1 Deng making that same mistake.

    But we'll never know; Jin Yong avoided having them fight, both because it wasn't necessary for the plot, and possibly because he would be able to avoid answering that question.
    The Quanzhen Five came out specifically with the aim of using power to compensate for technique. Xiao Longnu rendered the strategy irrelevant with speed that made the technique indiscernable. Four of the five were wounded within a short while. There were no other factors during the fight with the Quanzhen masters, just a straight out fight between her and the five masters.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by pannonian View Post
    The Quanzhen Five came out specifically with the aim of using power to compensate for technique. Xiao Longnu rendered the strategy irrelevant with speed that made the technique indiscernable. Four of the five were wounded within a short while. There were no other factors during the fight with the Quanzhen masters, just a straight out fight between her and the five masters.
    I'm not certain that the Cheun Jen 5 Elders, even collectively, have the equivalent inner power of a Great. When there were seven of them in LOCH, they certainly couldn't play the power game against a Great, and they were two down by that point in ROCH.

    Additionally, Little Dragon Girl's Double Sword Technique was dependent on having swords in hand. If you're matching up two fighters...and one is dependent upon weapons, while weaponry is irrelevant for the other, I'd give the nod to the one for whom weaponry is irrelevant.

    That was sort of Dook Goo Kau Bai's idea: the better he got, the less relevant the actual weaponry became. The better the Greats got, the less we saw them actually using their weapons.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    I'm not certain that the Cheun Jen 5 Elders, even collectively, have the equivalent inner power of a Great. When there were seven of them in LOCH, they certainly couldn't play the power game against a Great, and they were two down by that point in ROCH.

    Additionally, Little Dragon Girl's Double Sword Technique was dependent on having swords in hand. If you're matching up two fighters...and one is dependent upon weapons, while weaponry is irrelevant for the other, I'd give the nod to the one for whom weaponry is irrelevant.

    That was sort of Dook Goo Kau Bai's idea: the better he got, the less relevant the actual weaponry became. The better the Greats got, the less we saw them actually using their weapons.
    1. In terms of pure power, I really do believe the 5 Elders (and 7 in LOCH) would absolutely be greater than the Greats. With just two Quanzhen members launching a palm attack against Mei Chaofeng, she instantly thought a Great level fighter had appeared because there was no way that amount of power could be generated otherwise. The problem against a Great level fighter is that they wouldn't foolishly match palms against them when they're standing together joining forces like in all those wuxia series.

    2. This point is really moot if the weapon is a regular sword. I can accept it for the HIS, but these are fighters who live in the martial world. If a sword is their weapon, a sword will be nearby. Besides, what is this a counter-point to? I thought this argument was generally about XLN vs HR, and both are strongest with weapons.

    3. The Greats didn't use weapons because they were so far above their competition. Once the going gets tough, it's directly quoted that Hong Qigong, Ouyang Feng, Golden Wheel Monk, and Yang Guo are all stronger with weapons. Dugu Qiubai is entirely different in that he somehow is reaching a level where he is stronger without the weapon.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Dirt's Avatar
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    The Quanzhen Elders had no chance against Xiao Longnu. The Elders were the epitome of Wang Chongyang's martial arts via 9yin theory that combined their internal power. But Xiao Longnu was the ultimate expression of Lin Chaoying's martial arts that combined Quanzhen and Gumu arts via Zhou Botong's L/R technique. This was the clearest indicator that Lin Chaoying defeated Wang Chongyang (in martial arts).

    Wang = internal... Lin = external???

    The possibilities were Wang's internal and Lin's external were combined together........ It just wasn't meant to be...
    Last edited by Dirt; 05-19-15 at 04:53 PM.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    I think that the fight at the Chung Yeung Palace was a one-time overperformance, dependent upon specific circumstances, by Little Dragon Girl rather than an accurate reflection of her true martial arts level. She was fighting WAY above her actual level by utilizing the element of surprise to her advantage. What we saw Little Dragon Girl do at Chung Yeung Temple anticipates what we would see Chow Chi Yerk do at Shaolin a century later.
    It's not "over perfomance" at all if We consider her fight against GSZ which even when "sick" (due to LMC poison) she could beat GSZ which at that time even LMC/HR couldn't handle GSZ 1 on 1..

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    It's not "over perfomance" at all if We consider her fight against GSZ which even when "sick" (due to LMC poison) she could beat GSZ which at that time even LMC/HR couldn't handle GSZ 1 on 1..
    Gung Sheun Tze isn't a Great. He's not even at the level of Gwok Jing from the end of LOCH.

  8. #28
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    Yeeeep but no one except Greats (and they peers) could defeat GSZ at that time even I don't think "full healthy" HR could beat this guy while XLN when "sick"/poisoned could beat GSZ so judging from her fight against Jinlun (at Chongyang Palace) and GSZ she is not "overrated" at all another point is she is even mentioned first by HYS to take central spot (from 5 Greats which she refuse) which mean she clearly superior than HR at the end of ROCH..

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    Yeeeep but no one except Greats (and they peers) could defeat GSZ at that time even I don't think "full healthy" HR could beat this guy while XLN when "sick"/poisoned could beat GSZ so judging from her fight against Jinlun (at Chongyang Palace) and GSZ she is not "overrated" at all another point is she is even mentioned first by HYS to take central spot (from 5 Greats which she refuse) which mean she clearly superior than HR at the end of ROCH..
    Gung Sheun Tze's martial arts are a bit weird, so upon first encounter, he might be a little difficult to get a hold of for anyone who isn't at Greats level, but if you're better than him, you can figure him out reasonably soon. Wong Yung would likely defeat him too after she figures out what his game is. His techniques aren't better than Dog Beating Stick Technique or Peach Blossom Island techniques, unless one is practicing those skills at a very low level (e.g. pre-16 years Ching Ying).

  10. #30
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    It's might be true DBS ~ Yin/Yang Twin Blade and if We assume post 16 years HR vs pre 16 years GSZ is a bit unfair IMHO since HR have a more time for "improve" while GSZ not..

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    It's might be true DBS ~ Yin/Yang Twin Blade and if We assume post 16 years HR vs pre 16 years GSZ is a bit unfair IMHO since HR have a more time for "improve" while GSZ not..
    I'm pretty confident that Dog Beating Stick Technique is superior as an art to Yin/Yang Double Blades, as long as there isn't too great a discrepancy in the levels of the combatants.

  12. #32
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    But GSZ once see DBS (when YG use against him) and HR also once see Yin/Yang Blade so there is no "suprise factor" anymore beetwen them which mean they on par at their "peak"..

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    But GSZ once see DBS (when YG use against him) and HR also once see Yin/Yang Blade so there is no "suprise factor" anymore beetwen them which mean they on par at their "peak"..
    Yeung Gor only lost to Gung Sheun Tze using the Dog Beating Stick Technique due to relative inexperience and inferior weapon. Given an equal weapon and more experience, I expect Yeung Gor to take that duel using Dog Beating Stick.

  14. #34
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    DBS alwayz aim to opponets accupuntur points which seems quite useless against GSZ even if he is being hit by DBS..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    DBS alwayz aim to opponets accupuntur points which seems quite useless against GSZ even if he is being hit by DBS..
    It also seeks to disarm the opponent, taking the weapon out of the opponent's hands.

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    But the problem is could HR "disarmed" GSZ since her actual strength weaker than GSZ so deadlock☺️☺️☺️☺️

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    But the problem is could HR "disarmed" GSZ since her actual strength weaker than GSZ so deadlock☺️☺️☺️☺️
    Yeah, I think she could. Gung Sheun Tze fails to impress me.

  18. #38
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    Did to "disarm" someone We must have stronger inner strength than our opponets even people with equal strength couldn't "perfectly" disarm his/her opponets i.e when YG's sword clash head on with Jinlun's wheel which YG sword was broken and Jinlun's wheel was "disarm" and hit 2 Mongolian soldier under GX tower..

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