Dragon Sabre vs Heavy Iron Sword

[MrWErD]

I'm currently watching Heavenly Sword and Dragon Sabre(2009), and an old question popped into my head.

Ever since I found out that Guo Jing and Huang Rong melted down the Heavy Iron Sword to make the Dragon Sabre, I've wondered whether they've actually made a better weapon or simply destroyed a masterpiece for an inferior creation.

Dragon Sabre's powers were much more obvious and is able to boost its wielder's ability by quite a bit so long as they have the strength to swing the blade, but once Yang Guo realized the potential of the Heavy Iron Sword and trained himself in the correct methods to unlock its true power, he also became a complete beast with it, to the point where he would completely owned a Great level fighter after about a month of training. The gains from using the Heavy Iron Sword seems to be much greater than using the Dragon Sabre. While its powers were more subtle, the Heavy Iron Sword seems superior to that of the Dragon Sabre.

Am I the only one who thinks the Guo couple were too rash in destroying the sword that the Sword Devil himself had used with pride before he decided to forgo weaponry altogether?

[Ken Cheng]

The point was to create a container for the Mo Muk war tactics manual; the Dragon Sabre's function as a melee weapon was always secondary to its primary (container) purpose.

The Dragon Sabre also needed to be breakable (though not easily so) so that its contents would be accessible to the appropriate parties; making it completely indestructible would defeat its primary purpose.

[MrWErD]

The point was to create a container for the Mo Muk war tactics manual; the Dragon Sabre's function as a melee weapon was always secondary to its primary (container) purpose.

The Dragon Sabre also needed to be breakable (though not easily so) so that its contents would be accessible to the appropriate parties; making it completely indestructible would defeat its primary purpose.

I see, that makes sense in a way, but I think they should've went another route. Destroying the Heavy Iron Sword for its metal is kind of like burning the 9yin manual for warmth while sitting next to a forest.

[tape]

A better plan would have just been to not make the Heaven Sword/Dragon Sabre at all, and just have some trustworthy people (like Guo Xiang) know the location of where the manuals are hidden if the appropriate time/person came along to utilize it. It's not foolproof, but I'd take those chances over random power hungry wulin people generations later.

[Ken Cheng]

A better plan would have just been to not make the Heaven Sword/Dragon Sabre at all, and just have some trustworthy people (like Guo Xiang) know the location of where the manuals are hidden if the appropriate time/person came along to utilize it. It's not foolproof, but I'd take those chances over random power hungry wulin people generations later.

It might have helped if Gwok Jing and Wong Yung could have known where their oh-so-reliable younger daughter *was* when the sh*t was going down at Seung Yeung Fortress.

[MrWErD]

It might have helped if Gwok Jing and Wong Yung could have known where their oh-so-reliable younger daughter *was* when the sh*t was going down at Seung Yeung Fortress.

Is there any reason why they can't entrust those same secrets to Guo Polu? Does it have to be Guo Xiang?

It's very patriotic of the Guo family to die to the last man for their country, but it's very unnecessary. Would it not been better for the secrets within the two swords be revealed earlier so that the Mongolians will be overthrown quicker? Would it not be better if the male bloodline of a hero such as Guo Jing to continue rather extinguished after only one generation?

If Guo Polu left Xiang Yang before it fell with both manuals, it would have killed two birds with one stone. And the Heavy Iron Sword won't be melted down just to be a glorified safety deposit box.

[tape]

It might have helped if Gwok Jing and Wong Yung could have known where their oh-so-reliable younger daughter *was* when the sh*t was going down at Seung Yeung Fortress.

Hrm are we sure she was away? If so, how did she know the secret of the sword and sabre in order to pass it down E'mei? And how did she become the original owner of the Heaven Sword? E'mei did lose the sword for a time, but I believe it was quite a bit later.

Maybe they were all there and the Guo couple sent their kids to escape, but the others died while GX successfully fled.

[tape]

Is there any reason why they can't entrust those same secrets to Guo Polu? Does it have to be Guo Xiang?

It's very patriotic of the Guo family to die to the last man for their country, but it's very unnecessary. Would it not been better for the secrets within the two swords be revealed earlier so that the Mongolians will be overthrown quicker? Would it not be better if the male bloodline of a hero such as Guo Jing to continue rather extinguished after only one generation?

If Guo Polu left Xiang Yang before it fell with both manuals, it would have killed two birds with one stone. And the Heavy Iron Sword won't be melted down just to be a glorified safety deposit box.

It also doesn't necessarily have to be a descendant of the Guo family either. Surely there are some generals and soldiers that could be trusted after defending the fortress together for decades.

I mean it's not a foolproof plan, but entrusting secrets onto the most trustworthy people you can at the time has to be better than just flinging out two weapons and a legend and hoping someone magically has the capability to use them.

[Ken Cheng]

Is there any reason why they can't entrust those same secrets to Guo Polu? Does it have to be Guo Xiang?

Two things:

1). Gwok Polo died alongside his parents at Seung Yeung. So much for that plan.

2). Gwok Polo was a decent enough young man, but in terms of both martial arts and brainpower, he was decidedly unremarkable for someone who was the son of Gwok Jing and Wong Yung. Of Gwok Jing's three children, only Gwok Seung had the martial prowess and mental acumen to do anything productive with the secrets of the Heaven Sword and the Dragon Sabre. Unfortunately, she had this huge albatross around her neck called Yeung Gor obsession...

It's very patriotic of the Guo family to die to the last man for their country, but it's very unnecessary. Would it not been better for the secrets within the two swords be revealed earlier so that the Mongolians will be overthrown quicker?

The Mongolians could not have been overthrown quicker, for these reasons:

1). Why was the Sung Dynasty defeated by the Mongols in the first place? It's not because it didn't have capable martial artists galore defending its territory. But the Sung state and military were a demoralized, uninspired, fearful, and disorganized mob led by a cowardly and incompetent emperor while the Mongols were the finest fighting force ever seen in the world up to that time. The Mongols were led by excellent tacticians and charismatic men such as Temujin, Ogodei, Tolui, Kublai, and Monke. They were inspired, disciplined, brave, and well-trained. Under such circumstances, ten books of 9 Yum Jen Ging, twenty volumes of Mo Muk war tactics manual, a hundred Heavy Iron Swords, and fifty Greats could not have saved Sung China from inevitable downfall. The wonder is not that it fell, but that it lasted so long.

2). When the Yuan Dynasty WAS finally overthrown after the timeframe of HSDS, it again wasn't necessarily because of the secrets of the Heaven Sword and the Dragon Sabre (though they probably helped). It was because after 100 years of ruling the Chinese Central Plains, the Mongolian overlords had grown decadent and corrupt, and were no longer the well-disciplined warriors their forefathers had been 100 years earlier. Moreover, they no longer had charismatic and capable leaders such as Genghis Khan and Kublai Khan. On the other hand, the Han Chinese had grown sick and tired of Mongol rule, and were inspired overthrow the Mongolian overlords. They also had capable leaders such as Chu Yeun Cheung and Chui Dat to facilitate the process.

Under the circumstances, conditions being right was more important to success than the contents of the Heaven Sword and the Dragon Sabre. Until those conditions were fulfilled, the secrets were of limited utility.

Would it not be better if the male bloodline of a hero such as Guo Jing to continue rather extinguished after only one generation?

The Gwoks weren't planning for their kids to die; they simply were not omniscient/omnipotent.

If Guo Polu left Xiang Yang before it fell with both manuals, it would have killed two birds with one stone. And the Heavy Iron Sword won't be melted down just to be a glorified safety deposit box.

Well, EVERYTHING would have worked out much better if Divine Condor Hero Mr. Yeung Gor had been active and took up the responsibility because, after all, he was far more capable than any of Gwok Jing's biological kids (including Gwok Seung), but we're not going to discuss that because some people might be upset if we criticize Yeung Gor for retiring from wulin at an inconvenient time.

Hrm are we sure she was away?

Jin Yong did mention that Gwok Seung never returned to Seung Yeung Fortress during the time when her parents were still alive. She was en route back to Seung Yeung when they perished, and arrived too late to be of any help to them.

[MrWErD]

Two things:

1). Gwok Polo died alongside his parents at Seung Yeung. So much for that plan.

2). Gwok Polo was a decent enough young man, but in terms of both martial arts and brainpower, he was decidedly unremarkable for someone who was the son of Gwok Jing and Wong Yung. Of Gwok Jing's three children, only Gwok Seung had the martial prowess and mental acumen to do anything productive with the secrets of the Heaven Sword and the Dragon Sabre. Unfortunately, she had this huge albatross around her neck called Yeung Gor obsession...

It takes around a week or two to forge a normal sword. The Dragon Sabre is not a normal sword, but I'll accept that time frame. Unless the Guos had commissioned the creation of the blades outside of Xiang Yang and had already perished before its completion, they had a period of seven to fourteen days, maybe more to decide what to do and act accordingly. In that time, couldn't they have handed those manuals to someone important and smuggle them outside the city?

At this point, Guo Polu may have already died before Xiang Yang fell, but because it's been said that he died with his parents, I'll assume he's still alive. Guo Polu may be unimpressive compared to his parents, but as long as he inherited his father's love for his country, he can at least be trusted to keep those to manual safe and wait for an opportunity to overthrow the Mongolians. One does not need martial arts or intellect to be a patriot. Why was he allowed to die so unnecessarily? If Guo Xiang was so damn important, why didn't the Guos just entrust him with the important manuals and send him to look for his sister? If not Guo Polu, why not someone the Guos can trust. It's not like they don't have a lack of friends or people they can trust. It doesn't necessarily have to Guo Xiang or Yang Guo if neither were available.

Why not just trust them with someone and finally use them when the opportunity for independence arise? Not hide them and hope that when they resurface, it'll be in the perfect time and in the hands of the perfect candidate for emperor?

This is a much more practical plan than melting down three blades and hiding your manuals in two in hopes that they fall into the hands of the right person with the right info. What if one just disappears? Like fell into the bottom of an ocean? What if both fell into the hands of a tyrant or the Mongolians? Which had happened to the Heavenly Sword.

You don't think that maybe one day, two Mongolian royals will think: Hey, we have two legendary swords here, maybe we should fight each other with it?? See which is really better?

It sounds like a bad plan, really. The Guos have been handed a priceless treasure and they've squandered it just like... that. Just thinking about it makes me so mad.

The Mongolians could not have been overthrown quicker, for these reasons:
1). Why was the Sung Dynasty defeated by the Mongols in the first place? It's not because it didn't have capable martial artists galore defending its territory. But the Sung state and military were a demoralized, uninspired, fearful, and disorganized mob led by a cowardly and incompetent emperor while the Mongols were the finest fighting force ever seen in the world up to that time. The Mongols were led by excellent tacticians and charismatic men such as Temujin, Ogodei, Tolui, Kublai, and Monke. They were inspired, disciplined, brave, and well-trained. Under such circumstances, ten books of 9 Yum Jen Ging, twenty volumes of Mo Muk war tactics manual, a hundred Heavy Iron Swords, and fifty Greats could not have saved Sung China from inevitable downfall. The wonder is not that it fell, but that it lasted so long.
2). When the Yuan Dynasty WAS finally overthrown after the timeframe of HSDS, it again wasn't necessarily because of the secrets of the Heaven Sword and the Dragon Sabre (though they probably helped). It was because after 100 years of ruling the Chinese Central Plains, the Mongolian overlords had grown decadent and corrupt, and were no longer the well-disciplined warriors their forefathers had been 100 years earlier. Moreover, they no longer had charismatic and capable leaders such as Genghis Khan and Kublai Khan. On the other hand, the Sung Chinese had grown sick and tired of Mongol rule, and were inspired overthrow the Mongolian overlords. They also had capable leaders such as Chu Yeun Cheung and Chui Dat to facilitate the process.

To be honest, if the people of wulin actually possess the powers they've portrayed with in wuxia books, then they can and should have the power to overthrow kingdoms and empires. The Yuan Dynasty lasted almost a hundred years. The Sung dynasty have long been destroyed by then, but the land and the people are still Chinese. In that period of a hundred years, with the Mongolians practically destroying themselves with coups and assassinations, the right man with the right ability and knowledge (and a kickass sword) could potentially unify both wulin and the common people to throw off the shackles of their oppressors. Kind of like what happened in Sword Stained with Royal Blood, except not, and a hundred times more epic. And the fateful assassination will likely succeed. Multiple times.

Instead, what happened was the common people were subjugated for almost a century and all of wulin plunged into chaos because of the Dragon Sabre. They cannot unify because they were too busy killing each other for a knockoff that wasn't even all that powerful!

I'm not saying they can save the Sung Dynasty, only that rather than almost a hundred years of subjugation, why not try to end it at eighty years? Fifty? Why hide away the tools to do so in such an impractical manner. Indeed, in the end, the manuals have little roles to play in the downfall of the Mongolian Empire, but if they resurfaced fifty years earlier... who can say?

The Gwoks weren't planning for their kids to die; they simply were not omniscient/omnipotent.

They had one to two weeks to make their plan. And in the end, Xiang Yang surrendered. So they at least had a couple opportunities to save their children.

Well, EVERYTHING would have worked out much better if Divine Condor Hero Mr. Yeung Gor had been active and took up the responsibility because, after all, he was far more capable than any of Gwok Jing's biological kids (including Gwok Seung), but we're not going to discuss that because some people might be upset if we criticize Yeung Gor for retiring from wulin at an inconvenient time.

Indeed, everything will work out so much better if Yang Guo had just married Guo Fu. And if Guo Fu had inherited her mother's charms rather than her father's quick wit. And if she wasn't so spoiled and hot-headed. She even had the advantage of being his childhood friend and blew it! My God, this woman... I think she still had a shot until she cut off his arm, but she went and did it! Damn it!

[tape]

What if one disappears? Like fell into the bottom of an ocean?

It's funny cause that's almost exactly what happened. Xie Xun decided to sail off with it and his boat gets capsized.

In the end, the back-plot isn't bad for wuxia standards where explanations really only need some sort of history/legend behind it and you're supposed to ignore the parts that don't make sense, but things generally fall apart if you ask "why" enough times.

Wang Chongyang could have hid the 9 Yin immediately after he obtained it, and none would be the wiser. He didn't have to invite the other Greats to prove he deserved it by being the best.

Why the heck did the Yin kexi hide 9 Yang in a monkey? How is that better than digging a hole ? What's even funnier is his dying message is to tell Shaolin that it's inside a monkey. Nothing else! Are the non-violent, life treasuring monks supposed to kill every monkey all across China just to see what monkey it was in?

Basically it seems any manual that has a rich backstory makes no sense at all. The only ones that do are the simple ones like, the guy wrote it, and he put it somewhere...and now it's here.

[Ken Cheng]

I seriously am beginning to feel I'm getting suckered (again) into another stealth, "YG roolz; GJ droolz" thread...

[tape]

Ken,

Could you find a post somewhere where it was confirmed Guo Xiang never went back to Xiangyang after her appearance in HSDS? After all, she winds up having the Heaven Sword and knowing the secrets of the sword/sabre to pass down to E'mei.

[Ken Cheng]

Ken,

Could you find a post somewhere where it was confirmed Guo Xiang never went back to Xiangyang after her appearance in HSDS? After all, she winds up having the Heaven Sword and knowing the secrets of the sword/sabre to pass down to E'mei.

I've heard it mentioned by novel readers over the years. She might or might not have visited the city again, but even if she did, it was after her parents had died. She never saw her parents alive again after departing to find Yeung Gor.

[MrWErD]

I seriously am beginning to feel I'm getting suckered (again) into another stealth, "YG roolz; GJ droolz" thread...

Guo Jing is actually my favorite character! It's just... I don't like what he did to the Heavy Iron Sword!

Ken,

Could you find a post somewhere where it was confirmed Guo Xiang never went back to Xiangyang after her appearance in HSDS? After all, she winds up having the Heaven Sword and knowing the secrets of the sword/sabre to pass down to E'mei.

I think the Guo couple entrusted the sword to Yang Guo, who delivered it to Guo Xiang, but since they've never met face-to-face, maybe her parents included a letter that explained everything.

[pannonian]

It's funny cause that's almost exactly what happened. Xie Xun decided to sail off with it and his boat gets capsized.

In the end, the back-plot isn't bad for wuxia standards where explanations really only need some sort of history/legend behind it and you're supposed to ignore the parts that don't make sense, but things generally fall apart if you ask "why" enough times.

Wang Chongyang could have hid the 9 Yin immediately after he obtained it, and none would be the wiser. He didn't have to invite the other Greats to prove he deserved it by being the best.

Why the heck did the Yin kexi hide 9 Yang in a monkey? How is that better than digging a hole ? What's even funnier is his dying message is to tell Shaolin that it's inside a monkey. Nothing else! Are the non-violent, life treasuring monks supposed to kill every monkey all across China just to see what monkey it was in?

Basically it seems any manual that has a rich backstory makes no sense at all. The only ones that do are the simple ones like, the guy wrote it, and he put it somewhere...and now it's here.

HSDS, even more than ROCH, is a string of setpieces underpinned by a plot that makes less sense the more you think about it.

[tape]

The straw that broke the camel's back for me was the narration of the Ming sect having a million plus troops shortly after Brightness Peak. Everything after that basically didn't matter, and Wuji putting his life in jeopardy for ANYTHING (even for Xie Xun, love, etc) was objectively a terrible move made everything pointless. All those wulin affairs along with the sword and saber did not matter at all.