Questions about Wang Chongyang and Jiuyin Zhenjing

[Ken Cheng]

Additionally, how far did the talents of Ma Yuk, Yau Chui Gei, and Wong Chui 1 extend? These were the three most talented (in martial arts) of Wong Chung Yeung's students. Did any of them have Greats-level potential for 9 Yum Jen Ging? None of them started to train in the martial arts until well into adulthood. It's kind of surprising that any of them got as far as they did.

[tape]

I think Wong Chung Yeung was counting on getting a good pick in a future draft, and fortunately, his team managers drafted Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor in back-to-back seasons.

Quanzhen personally though kind of got Kwame Brown'd though . Fell apart in like two generations.

[Ken Cheng]

Quanzhen personally though kind of got Kwame Brown'd though . Fell apart in like two generations.

Well, yeah...when your best representatives are Yan Tze Bing and Chiu Tze Ging, the future rests on a foundation of quicksand.

Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor both left the franchise as free agents and signed with Team Peach Blossom and Team Ancient Tomb, respectively, laughing all the way to the bank as they collected big bags of inner power and skills from Cheun Jen Sect.

[tape]

Additionally, how far did the talents of Ma Yuk, Yau Chui Gei, and Wong Chui 1 extend? These were the three most talented (in martial arts) of Wong Chung Yeung's students. Did any of them have Greats-level potential for 9 Yum Jen Ging? None of them started to train in the martial arts until well into adulthood. It's kind of surprising that any of them got as far as they did.

Yeah none of them were destined for Greathood, but imagine if ZBT was allowed to train in it and became another pillar of the sect. He still wouldn't be responsible, but at least he would be around a bit more and QZ might have a even bigger base of reputation and people wanting to join them if they have the best fighter in the world along with the QZ7.

Or if we assume 9 Yin can even boost the original 7 members by like 10-30%, perhaps they would easily contain and kill Greats with the Dipper formation rather than just fight them to a draw. This might be the best scenario since no individual gains a ton of personal power but as a whole they're greatly boosted.

Just seems to be lots 9 Yin could have done if the purpose was for protecting wulin or whatever. But this is probably delving into the "Why didn't Greats just assassinate generals/armies slowly over the years" type scenario.

[Ken Cheng]

Yeah none of them were destined for Greathood, but imagine if ZBT was allowed to train in it and became another pillar of the sect. He still wouldn't be responsible, but at least he would be around a bit more and QZ might have a even bigger base of reputation and people wanting to join them if they have the best fighter in the world along with the QZ7.

Or if we assume 9 Yin can even boost the original 7 members by like 10-30%, perhaps they would easily contain and kill Greats with the Dipper formation rather than just fight them to a draw. This might be the best scenario since no individual gains a ton of personal power but as a whole they're greatly boosted.

Just seems to be lots 9 Yin could have done if the purpose was for protecting wulin or whatever. But this is probably delving into the "Why didn't Greats just assassinate generals/armies slowly over the years" type scenario.

I think it's a distinctly Chinese cultural trait: don't make waves...maintain the balance of power, but don't level the antagonists. If Central Divinity really wanted to establish lasting peace in wulin, he and his successors would have gone on the offensive against Mt. White Camel and possibly even Peach Blossom Island, Mafia-style. While that makes pragmatic sense, it's somehow not very Chinese...not very (virtuous) wulin...and above all, not very Wong Chung Yeung/Cheun Jen Sect.

[goodrick]

I think it's a distinctly Chinese cultural trait: don't make waves...maintain the balance of power, but don't level the antagonists. If Central Divinity really wanted to establish lasting peace in wulin, he and his successors would have gone on the offensive against Mt. White Camel and possibly even Peach Blossom Island, Mafia-style. While that makes pragmatic sense, it's somehow not very Chinese...not very (virtuous) wulin...and above all, not very Wong Chung Yeung/Cheun Jen Sect.

But isn't that the other extreme when you suggest that in order to maintain peace in wulin, Central Divinity would have to go on the offensive against Mt White Camel and Peach Blossom mafia style? To actively seek them out and hunt them down?

Why couldn't Central Divinity, instead, just strengthen his Quanzhen sect by imparting the skills in Jiuyin Zhenjing and also imparting his Pre-Heaven skill to Zhou Botong, Qiu Chuji, Wang Chuyi and Ma Yu and perhaps the other disciples too? This would seriously upgrade the strength of his school from leaps and bounds and bring it to a whole new level and leave them capable of defending and protecting the Nine Yin manual and also Quanzhen sect overall.

[goodrick]

Yeah, I feel like Zhang Sanfeng was probably the only teacher that wasn't stingy with his skills. Though it wasn't specifically mentioned, I have a feeling his students all knew the Wudang portion of 9 Yang as well as Taiji and it depended on their own aptitude to excel at them. All the other teachers, whether it's from personal ego or sect rules, usually do the whole only pass it to one person thing.

Zhang Sanfeng was probably the coolest of leaders of them all. I also felt he was very liberal and progressive for his age than most if not all of the other characters in the HSDS novel.

[Dirt]

It was one of our own Greats, Athena, that once said that WCY had read all of 9yin and had fully absorbed all of its teachings.

[goodrick]

It was one of our own Greats, Athena, that once said that WCY had read all of 9yin and had fully absorbed all of its teachings.

And who is Athena? Did she work for Jin Yong?

[Ian Liew]

But isn't that the other extreme when you suggest that in order to maintain peace in wulin, Central Divinity would have to go on the offensive against Mt White Camel and Peach Blossom mafia style? To actively seek them out and hunt them down?

Why couldn't Central Divinity, instead, just strengthen his Quanzhen sect by imparting the skills in Jiuyin Zhenjing and also imparting his Pre-Heaven skill to Zhou Botong, Qiu Chuji, Wang Chuyi and Ma Yu and perhaps the other disciples too? This would seriously upgrade the strength of his school from leaps and bounds and bring it to a whole new level and leave them capable of defending and protecting the Nine Yin manual and also Quanzhen sect overall.

I think there is a certain level of corporate pride in wulin that you do not just assimilate another art into your school because that would give the impression that your school didn't have a good enough pedigree. Similar to how Wudang in HSDS would prefer not to have Qiankundanoyi to represent them in the fight against Zhao Min's team, but fortunately in that case they had a great-level art AND a great-level fighter on hand to use it. I can't imagine, say the Beggar's Clan forgoing the Dragon Subduing Palms or Shaolin forgoing their 72 arts and making 9yin's skills as their flagship wugong. Perhaps Wang Chongyang thought that what Quanzhen had was good enough?

I have no idea what skills Wang Chongyang actually used in his prime - the only skill we see him use in LOCH is, funnily enough, the 1yang finger he learned from DZX. It is entirely possible that he HAD imparted everything he knew to his disciples and Zhou Botong, but they just didn't have the aptitude to learn it. The Quanzhen Seven were very late starters in terms of martial arts, while Zou Botong wasn't the patient and disciplined sort. Quanzhen arts were built upon a solid foundation which took years to develop, but it was a very solid foundation. A simple breathing and sleeping technique raised Guo Jing's internal power beyond what his seven teachers could do in over a decade (although that's not saying much, granted), while just a few words of explanation from Ma Yu resolved so many problems Mei Chaofeng had with her training (and for which she would remain respectful). The Wild Goose lightness kungfu was also well-known in wulin, with the six freaks recognising it on sight. The Quanzhen Seven, for all their limitations, were part of the elite of wulin, inferior only to the Greats and Qiu Qianren. Quanzhen's arts were exquisite, but there was no talent. We have no idea if the Xiantiangong was actually imparted to the Quanzhen Seven and Zhou Botong or not - perhaps it was, but they just failed to master it. It was just an internal energy cultivation skill which was supposed to power the external skill of the 1yangzi to a level where it could be a real threat to Ouyang Feng, so perhaps on its own, as an internal skill, it wasn't the magic great skill which would have made a big difference in the hands of the Quanzhen Seven or Zhou Botong?

I don't think any of the greats would have adapted the 9yin into their sect - the individuals just wanted to benefit from the skills within for a power boost since their own art was good enough. Ouyang Feng would probably have gone on a rampage using 9yin to fuel his Toad Stance the way Guo Jing used it to fuel his Dragon Subduing Palms, rather than try to master the White Bone Claw or Heart Shattering Palm. What Wang Chongyang did was certainly not the optimal solution in terms of calculated gain, but it probably was what wulin would have expected him to do. If only Zhou Botong was mature and responsible enough he may have passed it on to him, but unfortunately he wasn't.

[goodrick]

It is entirely possible that he HAD imparted everything he knew to his disciples and Zhou Botong, but they just didn't have the aptitude to learn it. We have no idea if the Xiantiangong was actually imparted to the Quanzhen Seven and Zhou Botong or not - perhaps it was, but they just failed to master it.

I believe it was specifically stated that after Wang Chongyang's death, the Southern Emperor became the only person who knew the Xiantiangong. So it is pretty clear that Wang Chongyang did not pass on Quanzhen's highest level skill the Xiantiangong to his disciples. What is not entirely clear is why didn't he do it.

[goodrick]

If only Zhou Botong was mature and responsible enough he may have passed it on to him, but unfortunately he wasn't.

Zhou Botong may not have been mature or responsible. But there were others that did seem both mature and responsible. Namely Ma Yu, Qiu Chuji and Wang Chuyi. It escapes me as to why Wang Chongyang would not impart Jiuyin Zhenjing or at the very least Xiantiangong to them. I remain unconvinced.

[Ken Cheng]

Zhou Botong may not have been mature or responsible. But there were others that did seem both mature and responsible. Namely Ma Yu, Qiu Chuji and Wang Chuyi. It escapes me as to why Wang Chongyang would not impart Jiuyin Zhenjing or at the very least Xiantiangong to them. I remain unconvinced.

Those guys started their martial arts training late (I don't think a single one of them was under thirty when he began training in the martial arts), and while certainly not devoid of talent, did not demonstrate the talent to master an art as exquisite as the 9 Yum Jen Ging.

[Ian Liew]

I believe it was specifically stated that after Wang Chongyang's death, the Southern Emperor became the only person who knew the Xiantiangong. So it is pretty clear that Wang Chongyang did not pass on Quanzhen's highest level skill the Xiantiangong to his disciples. What is not entirely clear is why didn't he do it.

I'll take your word for it. Perhaps there were other internal energy requirements - given the time he spent with DZX it is unlikely that length of time required to learn or starting age was going to be a problem. It was just an internal skill, though, not necessarily the highest level skill. He probably taught his disciples all the external skills they needed, plus a very good internal foundation. Maybe Xiantian was complicated for some unknown reason. It would be a whammy if Quanzhen Swordplay was like Liancheng Swordplay - decent external which turns super when backed with a super internal.

Is 一剑化三清 a canon skill in the novels, by the way? All the Jin Yong Online games I play seem to list that as Quanzhen's top-level sword skill.

[Ken Cheng]

I agree with Ian. The Greats, to varying degrees, were image-conscious. If Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung solidified his and his sect's dominance with the 9 Yum Jen Ging, he would have opened himself and the sect to criticism by others that he/they were only "dominant" because they used someone else's (e.g. Wong Seung's) martial arts. The 9 Yum Jen Ging, after all, was not Wong Chung Yeung's creation, and it was not passed on to him by a teacher/school with which he was associated. He came into possession of the 9 Yum Jen Ging largely by chance.

[Dirt]

9ying came into WCY's hands not by chance but by victory. And Ouyang Feng seemingly would have no problems with becoming the ruler of wulin via 9ying.

[Doc Kwok]

Is 一剑化三清 a canon skill in the novels, by the way? All the Jin Yong Online games I play seem to list that as Quanzhen's top-level sword skill.

That should be 一炁化三清. It is a high-level (though not necessarily top) Quanzhen sword skill where each individual move can transform into up to three moves attacking separate targets. It was used by Yang Guo to subdue two elders from the Beggar's clan in front of Li Mochou.

[goodrick]

I agree with Ian. The Greats, to varying degrees, were image-conscious. If Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung solidified his and his sect's dominance with the 9 Yum Jen Ging, he would have opened himself and the sect to criticism by others that he/they were only "dominant" because they used someone else's (e.g. Wong Seung's) martial arts. The 9 Yum Jen Ging, after all, was not Wong Chung Yeung's creation, and it was not passed on to him by a teacher/school with which he was associated. He came into possession of the 9 Yum Jen Ging largely by chance.

Couple of flaws in your argument. Wang Chongyang competed for the Nine Yin Manual against the other greats and won it. It wasn't by chance.

There were five people who competed in the first Mount Hua battle. The prize for winning the competition was the Nine Yin manual. So they were all there to win the manual so that they could expand their skills and not for charity. We know that at least Ouyang Feng and Huang Yaoshi wanted to learn the skills. Ouyang Feng openly attacked Quanzhen to get the manual. Huang Yaoshi tricked Zhou Botong to get the manual. They both wanted to learn the skills from the manual. To them it was not about what the world would think and if they would be criticized. I suspect the fact that since Southern Emperor and Hong Qigong were there, they also wanted to learn the skills from the manual.

[serdtje]

so why wang chongyang didn't impart pre-heaven skill to ZBT, because he believe 1 yang finger + pre-heaven cultivation internal skill is the counterpart for toad stance and southern emperor is the right person to learn this skill

[Ren Ying Ying]

Those guys started their martial arts training late (I don't think a single one of them was under thirty when he began training in the martial arts), and while certainly not devoid of talent, did not demonstrate the talent to master an art as exquisite as the 9 Yum Jen Ging.

They probably could've have learned 9 yin as it was mentioned that the taoist philosophies were quite similar and knowing the QZ basics made it easier to understand the internal portion of the 9 yin content (though they would still need someone to interpret the sanskrit portion). However, WCY forbid any of them to learn it...

As Ian pointed out, WCY had initially wanted to destroy the books but just didn't have the heart to do it. Perhaps by the time he changed his mind, it was too late to make other plans other than having ZBT bury them somewhere. However, he wanted to drive the point home that the only reason he competed for the books was to stop all the fighting and therefore if his disciples learned the art, then it would make his original intent appear insincere.

It is also mentioned that he wanted his disciples to focus more on Taoism rather than martial arts (which is why Ma Yu was chosen to be head of QZ despite QCJ's superior martial arts), so perhaps he just didn't care whether his disciple's martial arts would succeed or not. I'm not quite sure why Tian Xian Gong was pass on to his disciples. Perhaps Ma Yu was not strong enough and QCJ just didn't have the personality for it.