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Thread: Why Dragon Sabre but not Heaven Sword?

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default Did the Heaven Sword have a lesser reputation than the Dragon Sabre?

    As a weapon, the Heaven Sword was every bit the Dragon Sabre's equal, but in the HSDS story, the members of wulin only fought over the Dragon Sabre. They never fought over the Heaven Sword. Part of this might have been because the Heaven Sword had been in the custody of the Ngor Mei Sect (one of the three most powerful sects in wulin at the time) since the sect's founding decades earlier, while the Dragon Sabre frequently changed owners since leaving the possession of Gwok Jing and Wong Yung. But was there also a general perception that the Heaven Sword was inferior to the Dragon Sabre in some way, and thus, not worth fighting for?

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    Senior Member xuelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    As a weapon, the Heaven Sword was every bit the Dragon Sabre's equal, but in the HSDS story, the members of wulin only fought over the Dragon Sabre. They never fought over the Heaven Sword. Part of this might have been because the Heaven Sabre had been in the custody of the Ngor Mei Sect (one of the three most powerful sects in wulin at the time) since the sect's founding decades earlier, while the Dragon Sword frequently changed owners since leaving the possession of Gwok Jing and Wong Yung. But was there also a general perception that the Heaven Sword was inferior to the Dragon Sabre in some way, and thus, not worth fighting for?
    I don't think so. The legendary poem that spread throughout wulin said that the Dragon Sabre would dominate the world... until the Heaven Sword appeared. So I don't think anyone underestimated the Heaven Sword, but rather pit both weapons as equals. However, like you said, the Heaven Sword was in the custody of E'Mei Sect - in a way, it already had a legitimate owner.

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    only zhao min is willing to get the wrath of that old virgin for heaven sword.
    btw, what happened to both weapons in the end? given to the monks in shaolin to fix them back?

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wkeej
    only zhao min is willing to get the wrath of that old virgin for heaven sword.
    btw, what happened to both weapons in the end? given to the monks in shaolin to fix them back?
    The Dragon Sabre, I believe, was repaired by a Ming Cult blacksmith (the same one who repaired the golden box that Chiu Mun gave to Cheung Mo Gei) on Cheung Mo Gei's orders. No discussion on what happened to the Heaven Sword, however.

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    Senior Member bloodstar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    The Dragon Sabre, I believe, was repaired by a Ming Cult blacksmith (the same one who repaired the golden box that Chiu Mun gave to Cheung Mo Gei) on Cheung Mo Gei's orders. No discussion on what happened to the Heaven Sword, however.
    Yes in the 2nd edition the Dragon Sabre was restored by a Ming cult blacksmith using his own blood. However, because so many of his Ming cult "brothers" had been slain by Miejue using the Heaven Sword, he bore a hatred for the sword and refused to restore it. ZWJ then handed over the two broken pieces of Heaven Sword to the eldest Ermei disciple Jing Xuan telling her to return them to ZZR. Hence the Heaven Sword regained Ermei ownership but remained broken.

    Since Athena has not brought up any changes regarding this in the 3rd edition, i assume the fates of the weapons remain the same.

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    Junior Member lostchild's Avatar
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    Also keep in mind that there many people who don't even know the Heaven Sword is a sword. 99.9% of the people know about the weapons from the poem. The poem only say that the Dragon "Sabre" would dominate world, but when it comes to the Heaven Sword, the "Sword" part is not in the poem. Until later on, very few people actually know that Heaven is a sword. Some even think "Heaven" could be a person.

    The other part, already posted by others, is that the Heaven Sword is in Ermel Sect. I don't remember exactly what happened, but I think also at one point, the sword was owned by Chiu Mun's father, but Miejue took/stole it back. So the sword has only been at 2 places since Condor couples were killed.

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    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Default Why Dragon Sabre but not Heaven Sword?

    What was the reason that the many sect and factions were lusting after the Dragon Sabre but no one seemed to bother to make a move for the Heaven Sword (which was in Emei's hands and everyone knew it).

    If it was because they were worried that Emei was strong, it didnt seem to bother them that Z3F was like 10x more fearsome than Meijue and Wudang was at least as strong as Emei.

    If it was just the convenient excuse that XX was a 'evil' demon while MJ was from the orthodox sect, there still should be some shenanigans in the background to get hold of the sword.
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    Think it's the third reason you mentioned; they all really needed an excuse because they're hypocrites.

    I mean even the super enlightened Kong Jian mentioned it to Xie Xun in his dying breath...kind of makes you think he had that weapon on the back of his mind for a while doesn't it? Or at the least Shaolin talks about it enough to make him think of it.

    I mean none of it really makes too much sense anyway. They can't split the sabre 5 ways, so the weaker of sects don't have any chance to get it anyway, don't know why they'd all gather together.

    Lastly, I'm pretty toasted and Yang Xiao is badass. He had the Heaven Sword in his hand and just threw it away disdainfully. Probably not a great move when your cult's plan is to overthrow the government...but it was cool anyway.

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    Senior Member Ian Liew's Avatar
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    I think it's partly because the poem mentioned that the Dragon Sabre was the one which was supposedly the key to controlling wulin, while the Heaven Sword was merely mentioned as a challenger to the Sabre.

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    Makes you wonder who came up with the poem? Wouldn't make sense for Huang Rong to spread it...and wouldn't make sense for anyone who thinks there's a secret to spread the knowledge.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    It's one thing to claim a wulin treasure whose ownership had always been dubious (e.g. the Dragon Sabre), but it's another thing to go after a wulin treasure (the Heaven Sword) that had been, since its existence was known, the legitimate property of one of wulin's most prominent sects. Mo Dong Sect "found" the Dragon Sabre out in the open, so it was fair game, but the Heaven Sword was Ngor Mei property from the very beginning. There was no "finders keepers, losers weepers" principle in play for the Heaven Sword.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    It's one thing to claim a wulin treasure whose ownership had always been dubious (e.g. the Dragon Sabre), but it's another thing to go after a wulin treasure (the Heaven Sword) that had been, since its existence was known, the legitimate property of one of wulin's most prominent sects. Mo Dong Sect "found" the Dragon Sabre out in the open, so it was fair game, but the Heaven Sword was Ngor Mei property from the very beginning. There was no "finders keepers, losers weepers" principle in play for the Heaven Sword.
    According to Miejue herself, both the sword and sabre had exchanged owners many times, so Emei would merely be the latest in a long line of owners. As the weapons were forged shortly before the fall of Xiangyang and we know that Guoxiang was far away during the fall, GX probably was not the first owner either. Arguably, as the descendants of the sword's intended recipient, they are indeed the legitimate owners of the sword, but as Emei kept this a secret no one else would know that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Liew View Post
    I think it's partly because the poem mentioned that the Dragon Sabre was the one which was supposedly the key to controlling wulin, while the Heaven Sword was merely mentioned as a challenger to the Sabre.
    Precisely. While the Heaven Sword was considered an amazing weapon, it was thought of just as a weapon. On the other hand, the Dragon Saber was thought to grant the wielder power over all of Wulin, and Xie Xun thought that it housed a secret that would let him defeat Cheng Kun.

    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    Makes you wonder who came up with the poem? Wouldn't make sense for Huang Rong to spread it...and wouldn't make sense for anyone who thinks there's a secret to spread the knowledge.
    It would have had to have been Huang Rong. Nobody outside of the Guo family knew for sure that there was a secret within the Dragon Saber, so why would they have created a poem. I think the idea is that if their family was unable to use the contents to remove the Mongols, then there should be a way for someone else to do so.

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    Senior Member Linda's Avatar
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    I don't know why I thought this, but I always thought the reason the manuals were sealed away was because they were losing and didn't want them to fall into Mongols hands, so they gave the sabre to their son Guo Polu, who was later killed in battle and the sabre was lost to the world, while the sword was given to GX who went away with it, through time the sword was lost when the last of the Song dynasty fell and was regained again after some reason...I can't recall this part.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linda View Post
    I don't know why I thought this, but I always thought the reason the manuals were sealed away was because they were losing and didn't want them to fall into Mongols hands, so they gave the sabre to their son Guo Polu, who was later killed in battle and the sabre was lost to the world, while the sword was given to GX who went away with it, through time the sword was lost when the last of the Song dynasty fell and was regained again after some reason...I can't recall this part.
    That wouldn't really work, the Nine Yin manual wasn't a manual - Zhou Botong had destroyed the last copy. It only existed inside Guo Jing's memory, so if any printed copy existed it would be because they wanted to preserve for later generations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Kwok View Post
    Arguably, as the descendants of the sword's intended recipient, they are indeed the legitimate owners of the sword, but as Emei kept this a secret no one else would know that.
    Did Ermei make a claim on the Dragon Sabre?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Liew View Post
    I think it's partly because the poem mentioned that the Dragon Sabre was the one which was supposedly the key to controlling wulin, while the Heaven Sword was merely mentioned as a challenger to the Sabre.
    Well if you look at the actual Chinese quote its translates to:

    Precious Sabre Dragon Slayer, Commands all Under Heaven, Whiter Heaven Sword Appears, Who can compete supremacy

    That just says the Sabre can command wulin and that the Sword was a match for it. Doesnt seem to indicate that only the Sabre can control wulin.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

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    The old man who had the Dragon Saber at the beginning of the story told Yu Daiyan precisely why it was being fought over. The one who possessed the Dragon Saber would rule over Wulin, and that only the Heaven Sword was its equal as a weapon. Other than being an exceptional weapon, martial artists didn't think that there was anything special about the Heaven Sword.

    Quote Originally Posted by wkeej View Post
    Did Ermei make a claim on the Dragon Sabre?
    Emei never publicly associated themselves with the Dragon Saber, but they never had a reason to either. It was unlikely that anyone would have respected their rights to the weapon, and if anyone had known that they knew of its secrets, then they would only have been targets. Emei kept the wiser course of only letting their leaders know anything about Guo Xiang's secrets.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    I wonder if Yeung Gor and his descendants were cognizant of the secret of the two weapons and if, in the weapons' final forms, they passed through the hands of the Yeungs sometime during that long interregnum between the end of ROCH and the beginning of HSDS proper.

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    I find that really unlikely. The Yangs didn't have very much contact with Wulin, and they certainly wouldn't care about status within that world. And of course, if they ever got their hands on the weapons, nobody would ever be able to take it away from them. Even if you're one of the few people near their martial arts skills, you still would have no chance of finding them.

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