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Thread: If Tolui was the Great Khan during the ROCH, would he invade XiangYang?

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    Default If Tolui was the Great Khan during the ROCH, would he invade XiangYang?

    If Tolui was the Great Khan during ROCH while Wah Jeng was by his side, would he invade XiangYang? Would he go after Kwok Jing like his sons Mongke and Kublai did in ROCH? If Wah Jeng was around, would she ask her brother to stop the invasion?

    Regarding GWM, would he go after Kwok Jing and his loved ones personally without the order of Tolui, Mongke or Kublai?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Yes, he would have.
    He knew Kwok Jing and Wong Yung are there to defend and he is no match for them. He knew if he invades, Kwok Jing would not give him any mercy. Tolui was an intelligent man, he would not be as dumb as Mongke. I think he would not dare to invade. It's better to wait for Kwok Jing and Wong Yung to die of old age then invade. By then, it would be much much easier for him to win.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    He knew Kwok Jing and Wong Yung are there to defend and he is no match for them. He knew if he invades, Kwok Jing would not give him any mercy. Tolui was an intelligent man, he would not be as dumb as Mongke. I think he would not dare to invade. It's better to wait for Kwok Jing and Wong Yung to die of old age then invade. By then, it would be much much easier for him to win.
    Wait for people who are younger than you to die of old age. Good plan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Wait for people who are younger than you to die of old age. Good plan.
    He has descendants. If he passed away by then, Mongke and Kublai would carry on the mission. It would be easy for either Kongke or Kublai. At the same time, while waiting for Kwok Jing and Wong Yung to pass away, he could invade other regions in the west where is easy to win.

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    Senior Member Mandred Skavenslayer's Avatar
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    If your argument was that Tolui would have stayed his hand because of his friendship with GJ then it would have been more convincing, but your insistence on Tolui being a coward holds no water. He fought bravely in the Mongol campaigns and offered up his own life to save his brother when the latter fell ill, demonstrating his courage.

    He dared his father's wrath to defend GJ more than once showing his high value for comradeship.

    Never had he shown himself to be disloyal or cowardly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    If Tolui was the Great Khan during ROCH while Wah Jeng was by his side, would he invade XiangYang? Would he go after Kwok Jing like his sons Mongke and Kublai did in ROCH?
    He absolutely would. And in fact, he did exactly that - Guo Jing was going to kill Tolui because he led the Mongol army that attacked Xiangyang at the end of LOCH.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    Regarding GWM, would he go after Kwok Jing and his loved ones personally without the order of Tolui, Mongke or Kublai?
    Yes. When Golden Wheel attacked and tried to capture Guo Fu and Huang Rong he wasn't under the direct orders of Kublai. That was a plan he came up with himself. Besides, why in the world would he hold back against Guo Jing? Golden Wheel thought that he was the best martial artist in the world and continued doing so until he met up with Zhou Botong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandred Skavenslayer View Post
    If your argument was that Tolui would have stayed his hand because of his friendship with GJ then it would have been more convincing, but your insistence on Tolui being a coward holds no water. He fought bravely in the Mongol campaigns and offered up his own life to save his brother when the latter fell ill, demonstrating his courage.

    He dared his father's wrath to defend GJ more than once showing his high value for comradeship.

    Never had he shown himself to be disloyal or cowardly.
    Those are weak enemies. They are easy to win. On the other hand, he knew how powerful Kwok Jing is and how intelligent Wong Yung is. It makes no sense for him to invade such powerful opponent. There are other easy places in the west for him to invade. It make perfect sense for him to choose easy targets. He is not that brave, if he is defeated in the battle against Kwok Jing I have no doubt he would beg for mercy. There is an incidence in ROCH where a Mongol general leading his armies attacking Xiangyang. Upon seeing Kwok Jing, knowing how powerful Kwok Jing is, he immediately bow to KJ and beg for mercy while promising never to invade Xiangyang ever again. It works well for him. Kwok Jing let him goes but warn him never ever return. If Tolui was around during ROCH, he would invade easy targets in the west. He would avoid Kwok Jing at all cost.
    Last edited by Trien Chieu; 03-05-16 at 04:06 AM.

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    Senior Member Mandred Skavenslayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    Those are weak enemies. They are easy to win. On the other hand, he knew how powerful Kwok Jing is and how intelligent Wong Yung is. It makes no sense for him to invade such powerful opponent. There are other easy places in the west for him to invade. It make perfect sense for him to choose easy targets. He is not that brave, if he is defeated in the battle against Kwok Jing I have no doubt he would beg for mercy. There is an incidence in ROCH where a Mongol general leading his armies attacking Xiangyang. Upon seeing Kwok Jing, knowing how powerful Kwok Jing is, he immediately bow to KJ and beg for mercy while promising never to invade Xiangyang ever again. It works well for him. Kwok Jing let him goes but warn him never ever return. If Tolui was around during ROCH, he would invade easy targets in the west. He would avoid Kwok Jing at all cost.
    Weak enemies? Some of the most powerful empires in Eurasia at the time were weak? Then please tell me what you consider strong. Nearly every one of them was on paper more powerful than the Mongols and could not be considered easy targets.

    Please give me an example of Tolui being personally cowardly. When captured by the Jins, held hostage by Western Venom or at the mercy of Eastern Heretic he never showed any signs of fear or begging for mercy.

    As for your example of the Mongol general, he surrendered because GJ was his former commander and he respected him too much to fight him. A display of loyalty not cowardice.

    Even your favorite whipping boy, GWM did not beg YG or the Greats for mercy when they defeated him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandred Skavenslayer View Post
    Weak enemies? Some of the most powerful empires in Eurasia at the time were weak? Then please tell me what you consider strong. Nearly every one of them was on paper more powerful than the Mongols and could not be considered easy targets.
    They are easier target than Xiangyang because they don't have Yue Fei war manual and they don't have powerful fighters like Kwok Jing and Greats and intelligent people like Wong Yung.

    Please give me an example of Tolui being personally cowardly. When captured by the Jins, held hostage by Western Venom or at the mercy of Eastern Heretic he never showed any signs of fear or begging for mercy.
    He knew begging them would not make any difference. On the other hand, begging Kwok Jing would make a huge difference. Tolui is an intelligent man so he knows how to act accordingly.

    As for your example of the Mongol general, he surrendered because GJ was his former commander and he respected him too much to fight him. A display of loyalty not cowardice.
    He knew he was no match for Kwok Jing. If he fought, he would be dead. He bowed to Kwok Jing to save his life. It was his tactic for survival.

    Even your favorite whipping boy, GWM did not beg YG or the Greats for mercy when they defeated him.
    GWM did not beg YG or the Greats for mercy simply because he knew begging them would not make any difference. GWM begged Kwok Seung to release him. When the helpless girl shows mercy toward him he kidnapped her immediately. If he has any dignity or decency as a human being, he would not kidnap a helpless girl who just saved his life. It showed how shameless and ingrate he is.
    Last edited by Trien Chieu; 03-05-16 at 05:23 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    They are easier target than Xiangyang because they don't have Yue Fei war manual and they don't have powerful fighters like Kwok Jing and Greats and intelligent people like Wong Yung.
    Neither did China. All that was fictional.

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    They are easier target than Xiangyang because they don't have Yue Fei war manual and they don't have powerful fighters like Kwok Jing and Greats and intelligent people like Wong Yung.
    And yet XY still fell. So that means one of two things, either XY like all other Mongol's conquest was also a weak target, and so by extension so was GJ and HY as they also lost to the cowardly mongols. Or the Mongols were brave as they dared attack a strong target and triumph.

    He knew begging them would not make any difference. On the other hand, begging Kwok Jing would make a huge difference. Tolui is an intelligent man so he knows how to act accordingly.
    So the answer is NO. You can not give me a single example Tolui being cowardly and all evidence shows him being a brave man.

    He knew he was no match for Kwok Jing. If he fought, he would be dead. He bowed to Kwok Jing to save his life. It was his tactic for survival.
    I assume we are discussing the TVB ROCH of the 1980's. In that scene all of the General's men had been killed and he was surrounded by enemies, yet he bravely fought on and did not attempt to ask for mercy. He stopped when he saw GJ and greeted him as Golden Sabre Prince and it was GJ who decided to spare him for the sake of their old comradeship.

    When the General returned to camp, Kublai executed him for fraternizing with the enemy but rewarded his family for his bravery. Hardly the act of a coward.

    GWM did not beg YG or the Greats for mercy simply because he knew begging them would not make any difference. GWM begged Kwok Seung to release him. When the helpless girl shows mercy toward him he kidnapped her immediately. If he has any dignity or decency as a human being, he would not kidnap a helpless girl who just saved his life. It showed how shameless and ingrate he is.
    You are confusing immorality with cowardice. It is perfectly possible to be immoral without being a coward. Examples would be Zuo Lengshan & Ren Woxing. Both men were extrenely immoral but I would not call either of them cowards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToastedRossi View Post
    He absolutely would. And in fact, he did exactly that - Guo Jing was going to kill Tolui because he led the Mongol army that attacked Xiangyang at the end of LOCH.
    Kwok Jing held back. Kwok Jing wasn't capable of killing his own sworn brother.

    Yes. When Golden Wheel attacked and tried to capture Guo Fu and Huang Rong he wasn't under the direct orders of Kublai. That was a plan he came up with himself. Besides, why in the world would he hold back against Guo Jing? Golden Wheel thought that he was the best martial artist in the world and continued doing so until he met up with Zhou Botong.
    If GWM really believe he is the best, why did he not challenge KJ in a death match. If he won, he would be a hero and the war would be over.

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    Don't see why he wouldn't, for as a Khan he has everything to gain. Would have been interesting to see how he would have handled Guo Jing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golgo 13 View Post
    Don't see why he wouldn't, for as a Khan he has everything to gain. Would have been interesting to see how he would have handled Guo Jing.
    Tolui knows Kwok Jing and Wong Yung personally, he knows how powerful and intelligent they are so he would not dare to take such risk. Tolui is smart, he would not be foolish like Mongke Khan. He would go for easy target in the west.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandred Skavenslayer View Post
    You are confusing immorality with cowardice. It is perfectly possible to be immoral without being a coward. Examples would be Zuo Lengshan & Ren Woxing. Both men were extrenely immoral but I would not call either of them cowards.
    ZLS and RWX went after the weak mercilessly. They are far worse than DFBB and YBB.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    ZLS and RWX went after the weak mercilessly. They are far worse than DFBB and YBB.
    Is this an opinion or fact? If the former I do not care for it, if the latter please offer evidence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandred Skavenslayer View Post
    Is this an opinion or fact? If the former I do not care for it, if the latter please offer evidence.
    Wulin was relatively peaceful when DFBB was the leader of Sun Moon Sect. He spent most of his times in Black Wood Cliff minding his own business. When RWX regained power, he immediately demand the whole wulin to worship him. YBQ was bullied by ZLS most of the time. ZLS was not even let Liu family retired from wulin. ZLS was evil.

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