What are the causes for ZWJ 's underperformance in his fight?

[Ken Cheng]

Also, ZWJ had a longer period of dedicated training under the greatest martial arts theorist/teacher of the trilogy, yet continued to underperform afterwards. Several months under Zhang Sanfeng while Ming Jiao was searching for ZM, compared with a month under H7G (GJ), and a day under HYS and H7G/OYF (YG). YG in particular, given the bare skeleton of MA theory, figured out its practice mostly by himself.

Cheung Mo Gei lacked the one valuable "teacher" that Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor had: fighting for his life against stronger opponents on multiple occasions. By the time Cheung Mo Gei emerged as a full-time participant in wulin, he was already stronger than all of his opposition. Not really an ideal situation in which to build fighting experience and instincts.

A better comparison might be Hui Juk, who was in a similar situation.

[Riverlake]

I did not mean that he had access to superior skills compared to YG/GJ, but he had superior inner strength and skills compared to the opposition he fought. GJ/YG generally had better skills than their opponents as well, but they had the limitation of having much worse inner strength than their opponents opposed to ZWJ who was many times stronger in every way. He was faster and stronger than his opponents but managed to be unimpressive, while other characters are slower and weaker but manage to pull off surprising victories. I've also pointed out that is by design due to the circumstance that he has to be a bad fighter for the novel to be interesting, but that doesn't change the fact that he is a bad fighter.

That makes more sense, but how can you be sure that his opponents were that weak? His opponents were usually much older than he was. In Jin Yong's world, while secret skills can allow you to train your internal skills quickly, most martial artists also just obtain higher internal skills as they get older. I don't agree with the argument that because he had Jiuyangzhenjing and QKDNY, he was therefore 10 times as strong as his opponents in internal power. He was stronger, but we simply don't have a proper measure for how strong the internal power of HSDS martial artists were, or how much of a difference you can make up for external skills with internal skills.

Him being by far the best isn't really a testament to how talented he is, it's more a testament to how weak the era is with regards to Great level fighters. The Du monks are the next strongest fighters, and one on one, any Great would mop the floor with them.

Yet three on one, I think they would defeat any of the masters of LOCH and ROCH. I just can't see Jin Yong making the three top martial artists of the most famous Buddhist martial arts school in China that weak, and the way they were described, their team work was as one, and thus you can't just think of them as three skill 60 guys. They were likely able to combine their skill to reach a much higher skill, which is why no martial artist of HSDS alone could defeat them.

YG with HIS reached Great+ level status at 20, GJ reached that in his early 30's, but there isn't much evidence to show that they improved beyond that decades later. Wuji reaching it at ~20 is impressive, but it doesn't necessarily mean he could improve beyond that even if he tried.

Also, ZWJ had a longer period of dedicated training under the greatest martial arts theorist/teacher of the trilogy, yet continued to underperform afterwards. Several months under Zhang Sanfeng while Ming Jiao was searching for ZM, compared with a month under H7G (GJ), and a day under HYS and H7G/OYF (YG). YG in particular, given the bare skeleton of MA theory, figured out its practice mostly by himself.

I calculated it, and Yang Guo was taught by three out of the four masters of his time, AND trained for years under XLN, AND trained using DGQB's method for a long time. He had available to him no less than seven top internal and external skills. Saying Yang Guo trained less than ZWJ is simply ridiculous. This guy received more help than ZWJ and Guo Jing combined and while he was obviously smart, knowing THAT MANY top skills gives you a huge advantage. Also, Yang Guo, before he trained with DGQB's method, and while he still had both arms, wasn't yet strong enough to defeat the masters.

Guo Jing also had help from the masters, had seven teachers in the beginning, and still didn't reach the top until he was over 30. Saying ZSF's one time help of ZWJ is of more value than all that cannot be right. ZSF was strong, but the source of his power was his own version of Jiuyangzhenjing, which ZWJ already knew, so all ZSF could do was improve his external skills. That is, ZSF could not have been as much of a help to ZWJ as the LOCH and ROCH masters were to Guo Jing and Yang Guo, as ZSF spent his entire life working out what ZWJ learned straight from the book.

[tape]

Yet three on one, I think they would defeat any of the masters of LOCH and ROCH. I just can't see Jin Yong making the three top martial artists of the most famous Buddhist martial arts school in China that weak, and the way they were described, their team work was as one, and thus you can't just think of them as three skill 60 guys. They were likely able to combine their skill to reach a much higher skill, which is why no martial artist of HSDS alone could defeat them.

It's not about them being weak, it's that Great level fighters are just that strong. In DGSD aside from Sweeper, the top 3 Monks in Shaolin would lose to Xian Feng. In SPW, DFBB easily beat 3 fighers of Fang Zheng's level. He Zheduo pre HSDS who wasn't even very strong is also at a level where he could seemingly defeat a few top monks at once.

I calculated it, and Yang Guo was taught by three out of the four masters of his time, AND trained for years under XLN, AND trained using DGQB's method for a long time. He had available to him no less than seven top internal and external skills. Saying Yang Guo trained less than ZWJ is simply ridiculous. This guy received more help than ZWJ and Guo Jing combined and while he was obviously smart, knowing THAT MANY top skills gives you a huge advantage. Also, Yang Guo, before he trained with DGQB's method, and while he still had both arms, wasn't yet strong enough to defeat the masters.

In ROCH, GWM specifically tells YG that training in so many skills is a detriment and he should focus on one thing. That one sentence from a Great level fighter allowed him to improve greatly as a fighter. Having access to a lot of skills is a good thing, but as a young 20 year old trying to find his way in martial arts, I would much rather have the dedicated guidance of ZSF teaching me for months.

And you are ignoring the point that 1 month of YG training in the HIS allowed him to become a Greats level fighter. If we were to extrapolate how Great he COULD become if the story ended there, then it'd be logical to assume in a few decades he'd be on Sweeper level. Yet the story goes on and we see that is not the case. ZWJ's story ended when he was 20, and frankly I see no reason for him to have more progression than YG/GJ would, and is an assumption to think he could improve much more.

Guo Jing also had help from the masters, had seven teachers in the beginning, and still didn't reach the top until he was over 30. Saying ZSF's one time help of ZWJ is of more value than all that cannot be right. ZSF was strong, but the source of his power was his own version of Jiuyangzhenjing, which ZWJ already knew, so all ZSF could do was improve his external skills. That is, ZSF could not have been as much of a help to ZWJ as the LOCH and ROCH masters were to Guo Jing and Yang Guo, as ZSF spent his entire life working out what ZWJ learned straight from the book.

ZSF used 9 Yang as the basis for his internal arts, but his real legacy is the external art of Taiji. By SPW there is no mention of 9 Yang, but Taiji Sword and Fist is what the prized art is. Also, I was not trying to say YG/GJ received no help because they certainly did, but was just pointing out that the few months of learning under Zhang Sanfeng while having Greats level inner strength is often overlooked because it's not some fall down a cave type event, but it is just as impactful. Wuji was put in a position where he should easily be the best fighter in the world, which he was, but it's not anything that exceeds expectations.

[EdenResident]

ZhangWuji "trained" for like 30 days with Zhang Sanfeng. During those times, he had to manage Ming jiao's operations, too. About 95% of his skills are self-taught and from real life fighting. Even his medical skills are almost self-taught from manuals and shit. The guy is simply a genius.

On the contrary, Yang Guo trained exclusively for years with Xiao Long Nu in Gu Mu, which had all sorts of awesome martial arts manuals. Then after that, he constantly received teachings from all the Greats, Guo Jing. Hell, even Jinlun Guoshi gave him pointers. He even had an awesome sparring partner for about 16 years and obviously training techniques from Du gu. Compared to Zhang Wuji, Yang Guo obviously had a bigger advantage in training opportunity. And he didn't have to worry about things like leading a resistance for his country.

Likewise, Guo Jing, beside the basic training from Ma Yu and Zhou BoTong, had a full time master in Hong QiGong.

Of the 3 heroes from the Triology, Zhang Wuji had the worst training opportunity. Now that's not to say that his arts are inferior than the other 2's because I think he lucked out with having basically the best neigong manual in all of Jin Yong's universe. Also, having the best martial art theorist of the time to consult is pretty awesome, too. Still, compared to other Jin Yong's heroes, Zhang Wuji relies the most on self-taught techniques.

[tape]

ZhangWuji "trained" for like 30 days with Zhang Sanfeng. During those times, he had to manage Ming jiao's operations, too. About 95% of his skills are self-taught and from real life fighting. Even his medical skills are almost self-taught from manuals and shit. The guy is simply a genius.

On the contrary, Yang Guo trained exclusively for years with Xiao Long Nu in Gu Mu, which had all sorts of awesome martial arts manuals. Then after that, he constantly received teachings from all the Greats, Guo Jing. Hell, even Jinlun Guoshi gave him pointers. He even had an awesome sparring partner for about 16 years and obviously training techniques from Du gu. Compared to Zhang Wuji, Yang Guo obviously had a bigger advantage in training opportunity. And he didn't have to worry about things like leading a resistance for his country.

Likewise, Guo Jing, beside the basic training from Ma Yu and Zhou BoTong, had a full time master in Hong QiGong.

Of the 3 heroes from the Triology, Zhang Wuji had the worst training opportunity. Now that's not to say that his arts are inferior than the other 2's because I think he lucked out with having basically the best neigong manual in all of Jin Yong's universe. Also, having the best martial art theorist of the time to consult is pretty awesome, too. Still, compared to other Jin Yong's heroes, Zhang Wuji relies the most on self-taught techniques.

Wuji trained for many months with Zhang Sanfeng, I don't know why you put quotes around trained. He never really dealt with Ming cult affairs, and within a short time period the Ming cult barely dealt with rebellion affairs as the army leaders did all the work. The Ming sect became a figurehead, and he was just the figurehead of the figurehead.

And Yang Guo trained exclusively with XLN when they were both teenagers -- she did not have the pedigree or experience to even compare to a teacher like a Great. She was weaker than a Quanzhen master. (*Also, she taught what most would say was the complete opposite of a good martial arts base; Ancient Tomb martial arts relied on agility, trickery, and technique rather than a solid foundation like Quanzhen).This is one time where it applies when Wang Chuyi said 3 days of training with a Great is the equivalent of years with a normal master.

When did Greats constantly train with Yang Guo? He spent 3 days with Hong Qigong and Ouyang Feng dueling, where it explicitly said they didn't pass on the essence of the martial arts and only gave him raw techniques. He spent a week with Huang Yaoshi who said what he taught him would still take him 2 years to defeat Li Mochou. Golden Wheel Monk gave him those 3 sentences of advice. He was never shown to receive any teachings from Guo Jing.

His Dugu techniques were based on his own understanding after seeing a heavy *** sword and being brought to a sea to train. If you consider Wuji self taught just because it was from manuals, I don't see how you don't consider YG self taught since he literally saw a sword and a bird started attacking him. At least the manuals have words.

I think the 3 have had comparable experiences as all JY protagonists, the end result is just different because of character and storyline.

[pannonian]

Wuji trained for many months with Zhang Sanfeng, I don't know why you put quotes around trained. He never really dealt with Ming cult affairs, and within a short time period the Ming cult barely dealt with rebellion affairs as the army leaders did all the work. The Ming sect became a figurehead, and he was just the figurehead of the figurehead.

And Yang Guo trained exclusively with XLN when they were both teenagers -- she did not have the pedigree or experience to even compare to a teacher like a Great. She was weaker than a Quanzhen master. (*Also, she taught what most would say was the complete opposite of a good martial arts base; Ancient Tomb martial arts relied on agility, trickery, and technique rather than a solid foundation like Quanzhen).This is one time where it applies when Wang Chuyi said 3 days of training with a Great is the equivalent of years with a normal master.

When did Greats constantly train with Yang Guo? He spent 3 days with Hong Qigong and Ouyang Feng dueling, where it explicitly said they didn't pass on the essence of the martial arts and only gave him raw techniques. He spent a week with Huang Yaoshi who said what he taught him would still take him 2 years to defeat Li Mochou. Golden Wheel Monk gave him those 3 sentences of advice. He was never shown to receive any teachings from Guo Jing.

His Dugu techniques were based on his own understanding after seeing a heavy *** sword and being brought to a sea to train. If you consider Wuji self taught just because it was from manuals, I don't see how you don't consider YG self taught since he literally saw a sword and a bird started attacking him. At least the manuals have words.

I think the 3 have had comparable experiences as all JY protagonists, the end result is just different because of character and storyline.

Yang Guo's internal base, prior to Big Bird, was Quanzhen as taught by Zhao Zhijing, in a form calculated to make sure he received no benefits from it, and 9 yin as gleaned from the walls whilst pretending to be under duress from Li Mochou, with the minimum necessary to unblock his acupoints. With that internal "training", and external skills the critical part of which was self-realised on the spot, he and Xiao Longnu managed to get the better of a Great.

[Riverlake]

It's not about them being weak, it's that Great level fighters are just that strong. In DGSD aside from Sweeper, the top 3 Monks in Shaolin would lose to Xian Feng. In SPW, DFBB easily beat 3 fighers of Fang Zheng's level. He Zheduo pre HSDS who wasn't even very strong is also at a level where he could seemingly defeat a few top monks at once.

You can't simply assume that three top martial artists working together can achieve the same effects as the three monks in HSDS. The descriptions hold that the monks of HSDS had obtained ultimate harmony in their movements, like the three Persian guards. They were not just three guys working together.

In ROCH, GWM specifically tells YG that training in so many skills is a detriment and he should focus on one thing. That one sentence from a Great level fighter allowed him to improve greatly as a fighter. Having access to a lot of skills is a good thing, but as a young 20 year old trying to find his way in martial arts, I would much rather have the dedicated guidance of ZSF teaching me for months.

The advice was more that Yang Guo should train one skill deep, than several skills shallow. It's not that having many skills is bad or to his disadvantage, and one of the reasons Yang Guo was able to come up with his own style at the end was because he had knowledge of so many different martial arts. Also, Yang Guo by himself wasn't that strong for most of the story.

And you are ignoring the point that 1 month of YG training in the HIS allowed him to become a Greats level fighter. If we were to extrapolate how Great he COULD become if the story ended there, then it'd be logical to assume in a few decades he'd be on Sweeper level. Yet the story goes on and we see that is not the case. ZWJ's story ended when he was 20, and frankly I see no reason for him to have more progression than YG/GJ would, and is an assumption to think he could improve much more.

Yang Guo continued to train and fight in the 16 years in between XLN going missing and when we see him again. The Yang Guo most people think of as the best martial artist of his time is the older Yang Guo, after 16 years of wandering the martial world, and after developing his own art, not the Yang Guo who just finished one month of DGQB's training. There is no reason at all to believe that Yang Guo didn't become better in that time.

So in fact, when people talk about Guo Jing being the best when he was 30, that should also apply to Yang Guo. You can't just say Yang Guo was at the same skill 16 years later. He wasn't, but what's more important is that his opponents also became better.

It's significant that ZWJ was already the best at 20, and in fact, he was already able to defeat the leaders of the martial world before training under ZSF. Thus, you could even argue ZWJ was already the best in the world without any external skills.

ZSF used 9 Yang as the basis for his internal arts, but his real legacy is the external art of Taiji. By SPW there is no mention of 9 Yang, but Taiji Sword and Fist is what the prized art is. Also, I was not trying to say YG/GJ received no help because they certainly did, but was just pointing out that the few months of learning under Zhang Sanfeng while having Greats level inner strength is often overlooked because it's not some fall down a cave type event, but it is just as impactful. Wuji was put in a position where he should easily be the best fighter in the world, which he was, but it's not anything that exceeds expectations.

Okay, I'll accept the ZSF argument, but still observe that ZWJ had only one teacher who taught him anything, while Yang Guo and Guo Jing both had several teachers, and were a lot older when they became the best. You could argue that this is because HSDS's martial world was, on the whole, worse than the martial world of LOCH and ROCH, but the actual evidence is weak - it's more of an effect of Jin Yong not putting in a list like the five masters of LOCH and ROCH.

[tape]

You can't simply assume that three top martial artists working together can achieve the same effects as the three monks in HSDS. The descriptions hold that the monks of HSDS had obtained ultimate harmony in their movements, like the three Persian guards. They were not just three guys working together.

I am not assuming that; I know that the 3 Du Monks had perfect synergy. I was just giving similar examples of a top fighter defeating the 3 next best fighters being rather commonplace as far as JY novels go. If the rest had perfect synergy there wouldn't even need to be a debate since Wuji struggled while the others didn't, but it is still relevant.

Yang Guo continued to train and fight in the 16 years in between XLN going missing and when we see him again. The Yang Guo most people think of as the best martial artist of his time is the older Yang Guo, after 16 years of wandering the martial world, and after developing his own art, not the Yang Guo who just finished one month of DGQB's training. There is no reason at all to believe that Yang Guo didn't become better in that time.

So in fact, when people talk about Guo Jing being the best when he was 30, that should also apply to Yang Guo. You can't just say Yang Guo was at the same skill 16 years later. He wasn't, but what's more important is that his opponents also became better.

It's significant that ZWJ was already the best at 20, and in fact, he was already able to defeat the leaders of the martial world before training under ZSF. Thus, you could even argue ZWJ was already the best in the world without any external skills.

What my point was is that you cannot extrapolate growth of a main character, especially when they receive crazy power boosts and once in a life time events. YG at age 20 with the HIS was the strongest fighter in the world in my opinion, and many agree. Even if he wasn't, he is on their level. If the story just ended there, wouldn't we think 36 year old Yang Guo would be even stronger than he actually became due to reaching Greats level at age 20?

We see this isn't the case though since we actually DO see age 36 Yang Guo and he isn't a Sweeper level powerhouse, just one of the Greats. The same goes for Wuji -- he reached a very high peak at age 20 already, but this doesn't necessarily translate to becoming far, far stronger as he ages.

[Riverlake]

I am not assuming that; I know that the 3 Du Monks had perfect synergy. I was just giving similar examples of a top fighter defeating the 3 next best fighters being rather commonplace as far as JY novels go. If the rest had perfect synergy there wouldn't even need to be a debate since Wuji struggled while the others didn't, but it is still relevant.

In my opinion, Jin Yong vastly increased the power of team work in HSDS, when compared to previous works. There were many instances in HSDS of teams fighting at a much higher level through team strategy The Persians, the monks, and even the Mongol soldiers, all demonstrated that even the most powerful individual martial artists could be fought using teams of weaker persons with proper training and strategy. This was probably on purpose, as Jin Yong in previous works had not explained why top martial artists from China could not simply walk into the palaces of enemy leaders and wipe the floor with their guards. That is, why couldn't Guo Jing, Yang Guo, etc. just kill Genghis Khan and his sons, and stop the war? HSDS answers that question.

What my point was is that you cannot extrapolate growth of a main character, especially when they receive crazy power boosts and once in a life time events. YG at age 20 with the HIS was the strongest fighter in the world in my opinion, and many agree. Even if he wasn't, he is on their level. If the story just ended there, wouldn't we think 36 year old Yang Guo would be even stronger than he actually became due to reaching Greats level at age 20?

We see this isn't the case though since we actually DO see age 36 Yang Guo and he isn't a Sweeper level powerhouse, just one of the Greats. The same goes for Wuji -- he reached a very high peak at age 20 already, but this doesn't necessarily translate to becoming far, far stronger as he ages.

Sure, Yang Guo was strong with the sword, but as the book itself says, this was because of the power of the sword as much as it is because of the power of Yang Guo. The sword improved his strength, just like the two weapons in HSDS improved the strength of those who used them. Without the sword he was not as strong as the top martial artists, and it took him years of training before he could fight at that power without it. I believe this was explained in ROCH as it indicated that Yang Guo went back to the cave to train after XLN disappeared.

This wouldn't be the last time Jin Yong has allowed a weapon to have such an effect. Remember in HSDS, the leader of Emei was feared because she had YTJ, which could cut through other weapons. Yang Guo's power was of a similar nature. To this end I don't think you can say that one month of training with the sword made Yang Guo the best martial artist in the world, so I DO think there was a significant increase to his skill in the 16 years. My opinion is, as such, that Yang Guo, without the sword, was less powerful than ZWJ at 20, and so was Guo Jing. As such, ZWJ should be better than them at 30, even at the normal speed of skill increase.

[tape]

In my opinion, Jin Yong vastly increased the power of team work in HSDS, when compared to previous works. There were many instances in HSDS of teams fighting at a much higher level through team strategy The Persians, the monks, and even the Mongol soldiers, all demonstrated that even the most powerful individual martial artists could be fought using teams of weaker persons with proper training and strategy. This was probably on purpose, as Jin Yong in previous works had not explained why top martial artists from China could not simply walk into the palaces of enemy leaders and wipe the floor with their guards. That is, why couldn't Guo Jing, Yang Guo, etc. just kill Genghis Khan and his sons, and stop the war? HSDS answers that question.



Sure, Yang Guo was strong with the sword, but as the book itself says, this was because of the power of the sword as much as it is because of the power of Yang Guo. The sword improved his strength, just like the two weapons in HSDS improved the strength of those who used them. Without the sword he was not as strong as the top martial artists, and it took him years of training before he could fight at that power without it. I believe this was explained in ROCH as it indicated that Yang Guo went back to the cave to train after XLN disappeared.

This wouldn't be the last time Jin Yong has allowed a weapon to have such an effect. Remember in HSDS, the leader of Emei was feared because she had YTJ, which could cut through other weapons. Yang Guo's power was of a similar nature. To this end I don't think you can say that one month of training with the sword made Yang Guo the best martial artist in the world, so I DO think there was a significant increase to his skill in the 16 years. My opinion is, as such, that Yang Guo, without the sword, was less powerful than ZWJ at 20, and so was Guo Jing. As such, ZWJ should be better than them at 30, even at the normal speed of skill increase.

LOCH showed teamwork too with the Big Dipper formation, one Quanzhen master was weaker than Mei Chaofeng by a large margin but two sitting down casually throwing out palms made her feel nobody outside of a Great could generate that amount of power for example.

In ROCH of course we have the Jade Maiden Dual Swords.

As for YG's power level, the HIS definitely contributes a large amount to how strong he was. His real martial arts and inner strength was far weaker than a Great, but his one superior fighting technique along with the HIS made him on their level.

But the crux of my argument is still about extrapolation of character improvement after the novel ends. Heavy Sword or not, Yang Guo improved many fold in the short span of a month. If the story ended there, would it be fair to say that given his performance with the HIS, only training in it for a month, and having two more stages of Dugu techniques to master, that he has the highest potential at that point in time? I know it's a moot argument since the story did not actually end there, (original one supposedly did though!) but it's exactly the same situation as Wuji. At the end he still wasn't a great fighter relative to other protagonists and I don't see any reason for him to make any leaps and bounds given his character, compared to others who are much more interested in martial arts.

[EdenResident]

At the end of YTDLJ, Zhang Wuji still has a lot of room for improvement. At this point, his internals are probably already higher than any other characters' from the trilogy so it won't improve much more. However, his externals are still relatively limited compared to those of other Great level characters and certainly below Guo Jing's and Yang Guo's. Most skills he learned are on the defensive side and Jin Yong has said that QKDNY is still below China's arts. The offensive skills he's mastered, the Dragon claw and 7 hurt fist, are not considered Great-level skills. The only Great-level skills he's learned are Taiji fist and sword but these 2 don't utilize his massive internals.

Up to this point, Wuji's insane Neigong is only used to power QKDNY and as his auto-protect shield. What would take Wuji to the next level would be a skill that allows him to unleash Jiu Yang Shen Gong. I'm not sure what that would be yet but I'm sure a couple years with Zhang Sanfeng and this little book called Jiu Yin Zhen Jing would probably be what he needs.

Of course, it's all extrapolation at this point. For all we know, Zhang Wuji might just give up training given his nature, his happily ever after life with Zhao Min, and the fact that no one would ever dare challenge him in 100 years.

[CancerLuna]

Sure, Yang Guo was strong with the sword, but as the book itself says, this was because of the power of the sword as much as it is because of the power of Yang Guo. The sword improved his strength, just like the two weapons in HSDS improved the strength of those who used them. Without the sword he was not as strong as the top martial artists, and it took him years of training before he could fight at that power without it. I believe this was explained in ROCH as it indicated that Yang Guo went back to the cave to train after XLN disappeared.

This wouldn't be the last time Jin Yong has allowed a weapon to have such an effect. Remember in HSDS, the leader of Emei was feared because she had YTJ, which could cut through other weapons. Yang Guo's power was of a similar nature. To this end I don't think you can say that one month of training with the sword made Yang Guo the best martial artist in the world, so I DO think there was a significant increase to his skill in the 16 years. My opinion is, as such, that Yang Guo, without the sword, was less powerful than ZWJ at 20, and so was Guo Jing. As such, ZWJ should be better than them at 30, even at the normal speed of skill increase.

I see a lot of forum members use a similar argument in order to 'disqualify' YG's strength at that point. The sword comes paired with a skill...

If you give the sword to someone else, would they be able to use it the same way YG uses it?

LOCH showed teamwork too with the Big Dipper formation, one Quanzhen master was weaker than Mei Chaofeng by a large margin but two sitting down casually throwing out palms made her feel nobody outside of a Great could generate that amount of power for example.
As for YG's power level, the HIS definitely contributes a large amount to how strong he was. His real martial arts and inner strength was far weaker than a Great, but his one superior fighting technique along with the HIS made him on their level.

I agree with the overall point, only minor tweak I'd put there is that his 'overall martial arts' level isn't weaker than the greats, only his internal was weaker.

I'd argue his overall martial arts level was much higher than the greats by a far shot at this point even though his internal was still lacking to them.

(Similar to LHC in SPW when you compare him against 90% of Wulin at various points in the story.)

At the end of YTDLJ, Zhang Wuji still has a lot of room for improvement. At this point, his internals are probably already higher than any other characters' from the trilogy so it won't improve much more. However, his externals are still relatively limited compared to those of other Great level characters and certainly below Guo Jing's and Yang Guo's. Most skills he learned are on the defensive side and Jin Yong has said that QKDNY is still below China's arts. The offensive skills he's mastered, the Dragon claw and 7 hurt fist, are not considered Great-level skills. The only Great-level skills he's learned are Taiji fist and sword but these 2 don't utilize his massive internals.

Up to this point, Wuji's insane Neigong is only used to power QKDNY and as his auto-protect shield. What would take Wuji to the next level would be a skill that allows him to unleash Jiu Yang Shen Gong. I'm not sure what that would be yet but I'm sure a couple years with Zhang Sanfeng and this little book called Jiu Yin Zhen Jing would probably be what he needs.

Of course, it's all extrapolation at this point. For all we know, Zhang Wuji might just give up training given his nature, his happily ever after life with Zhao Min, and the fact that no one would ever dare challenge him in 100 years.

I'm not sure why people assume ZWJ's internal at any point is higher than YG/GJ/GWM's. It looks like they were said to be roughly on the same level.

ZWJ has a couple 'godlike' showings of his internal against relative scrubs which might contribute to that idea.

[EdenResident]

I'm not sure why people assume ZWJ's internal at any point is higher than YG/GJ/GWM's. It looks like they were said to be roughly on the same level.

ZWJ has a couple 'godlike' showings of his internal against relative scrubs which might contribute to that idea.

It's hard to compare characters across novels so we'd have to extrapolate a bit. When Jue Yuan meets the Greats at Hua Shan, his neigong is already on the same level as Guo Jing, who at that point, should have the best internals among the Greats. Now, Zhang Wuji goes one step further than Jue Yuan, with the lucky encounter with the qiankun bag. Jin Yong said that this freak incident never happened in the past and will never likely happen again. We can assume that Wuji's neigong at this point probably surpassed Jue Yuan already. Later, Zhang Sanfeng comments that besides Jue Yuan and Guo Jing, Wuji's neigong is unparalleled (notice that he didn't mention Yang Guo).

In Jin Yong's universe, when it comes to neigong, we know there's two components to it, pure power and utilization. Utilization is how well you can utilize the pure power. While pure power doesn't increase much especially for someone already at near peak like Wuji, utilization can get better with training. This is why in Jin Yong's universe, the older you get, the "better" your neigong is gonna be. Wuji at this point has the pure power but not the highest utilization rate, and he's already equal to Guo Jing and Jue Yuan, who are already in their 50's, 60's. It's not hard to imagine that given more training to get his utilization up, Wuji can surpass them.

TLDR: Wuji's baseline for neigong is Guo Jing's level. And he is just 20 years old. How many sports athletes, iron men, etc. do you see peak at their 20?

[tape]

In Jin Yong's universe, when it comes to neigong, we know there's two components to it, pure power and utilization. Utilization is how well you can utilize the pure power. While pure power doesn't increase much especially for someone already at near peak like Wuji, utilization can get better with training. This is why in Jin Yong's universe, the older you get, the "better" your neigong is gonna be. Wuji at this point has the pure power but not the highest utilization rate, and he's already equal to Guo Jing and Jue Yuan, who are already in their 50's, 60's. It's not hard to imagine that given more training to get his utilization up, Wuji can surpass them.

TLDR: Wuji's baseline for neigong is Guo Jing's level. And he is just 20 years old. How many sports athletes, iron men, etc. do you see peak at their 20?

Why do you automatically put the highest pure power at the highest potential rather than the ranking them equally? YG with the HIS techniques (not just the sword itself), reached a higher utilization rate at 20 than Wuji will ever likely reach. He is inferior in terms of pure power, but that can also be developed just as you mention utilization rate can be developed. YG's potential remains untapped in the pure power department, while Wuji is the opposite. GJ would be considered a blend of both but he didn't hit their levels at age 20.

I'm not arguing Wuji won't or won't easily develop, he will definitely get stronger, but he doesn't seem out of the ordinary compared to other protagonists. Even someone like Xiao Feng is only 10 years older than him, but can we really see Wuji easily surpassing Xiao Feng in 5 years? He would then be 25 reaching a 30 year old Xiao Feng level, and he had freak encounters compared to Xiao Feng's natural training. A 30 year old Wuji may indeed beat a 30 year old Xiao Feng, but it wouldn't be necessarily true that a 50 year old Xiao Feng wouldn't have caught up with a 50 year old Wuji.

[EdenResident]

We both agree that Yang Guo and Zhang Wuji are opposite in terms of pure power and utilization rate. Of course, there's no way to know who would develop their short coming better. That's why it's all extrapolation at this point. In the end, it'll all come down to motivation. Between the three protagonists, Wuji has the least motivation, with all the personal and national conflicts already resolved. Yang Guo is second though due to his competitiveness, he might still push himself further. Guo Jing has the most motivation, with his country falling apart. To me, it's the motivation that keeps Guo Jing at the top because he's clearly inferior to the other 2 in terms of learning ability.

I would rank these 3 like below

Learning ability, intelligence, etc.
Zhang Wuji = Yang Guo,
Guo Jing

Pure power
Zhang Wuji
Guo Jing
Yang Guo

Utilization
Yang Guo
Guo Jing
Wuji

Techniques, external skills
Guo Jing = Yang Guo
Wuji

Motivation
Guo Jing
Yang Guo
Wuji

Resourcefulness
Yang Guo
Wuji
Guo Jing

Performing under pressure
All 3 are equal

Potential to develop further (doesn't mean that they would)
Wuji
Yang Guo
Guo Jing

[CancerLuna]

It's hard to compare characters across novels so we'd have to extrapolate a bit. When Jue Yuan meets the Greats at Hua Shan, his neigong is already on the same level as Guo Jing, who at that point, should have the best internals among the Greats. Now, Zhang Wuji goes one step further than Jue Yuan, with the lucky encounter with the qiankun bag. Jin Yong said that this freak incident never happened in the past and will never likely happen again. We can assume that Wuji's neigong at this point probably surpassed Jue Yuan already. Later, Zhang Sanfeng comments that besides Jue Yuan and Guo Jing, Wuji's neigong is unparalleled (notice that he didn't mention Yang Guo).

In Jin Yong's universe, when it comes to neigong, we know there's two components to it, pure power and utilization. Utilization is how well you can utilize the pure power. While pure power doesn't increase much especially for someone already at near peak like Wuji, utilization can get better with training. This is why in Jin Yong's universe, the older you get, the "better" your neigong is gonna be. Wuji at this point has the pure power but not the highest utilization rate, and he's already equal to Guo Jing and Jue Yuan, who are already in their 50's, 60's. It's not hard to imagine that given more training to get his utilization up, Wuji can surpass them.

TLDR: Wuji's baseline for neigong is Guo Jing's level. And he is just 20 years old. How many sports athletes, iron men, etc. do you see peak at their 20?

In later editions, JY included YG in the comparison with GJ. I think that comment actually disproves your first point though. If ZSF mentions that they're all on the same level, then there's no reason to believe one is higher.

http://www.spcnet.tv/forums/showthre...changes/page16
23) When Zhang Wuji took Zhang Sanfeng's hand at Mt Wudang, Zhang Sanfeng thought that only experts like reverend Jueyuan, Guo Jing, Yang Guo and others had such powerful internal energy. Yang Guo's name is on that list too.

Here's how I would rank them.

Learning ability, intelligence, etc.
Yang Guo Zhang Wuji
Guo Jing

[Post 16]
Yang Guo Guo Jing Zhang Wuji

[Pre 16]
Zhang Wuji
Guo Jing
Yang Guo

Utilization
Yang Guo Guo Jing
Wuji

Techniques, external skills
Yang Guo, HIS > *
Guo Jing
Wuji

Motivation
Guo Jing Yang Guo Wuji [War effort, XLN, ZM]

Resourcefulness
Yang Guo
Wuji
Guo Jing

Performing under pressure
Yang Guo Guo Jing
Wuji

I'm surprised anyone would equate them here, ZWJ seems to choke in 80% of his fights or at least struggles..

Potential to develop further (doesn't mean that they would)
Yang Guo (YG still had a full 2 steps to master [Wood Sword, No Sword])
Wuji (I think he gets the 9YIN Manual)
Guo Jing (Most likely peaked)

Yes, it may seem like I'm biasing towards YG but in my opinion, he really is the standout among the Trilogy heroes.

[_Kenny_]

zwj reminds me of Mike Tyson. Has awesome speed and power but tends to choke and underperforms, both also peaked in their early 20s.

[ChanceEncounter]

One thing I think is frequently overlooked is the nature of ZWJ's martial arts. 9Yang is the opposite of 9Yin, which is the background of most of the other great-level fighters in the trilogy. It's inherently more of a passive, reactionary version to similar philosophies. Combine that with QKDNY, and TJS/TJQ which are about redirecting the opponent's strength, and you see ZWJ as a character with tons of abilities that are meant to be good at a passive style of fighting, but he struggles to produce overwhelming power on his own.

That kind of fighting style tends to fight down to the level of competition, because it struggles to create opponents by itself. You're essentially relying on the opponent to make the move, and then for you to create openings based on their moves. Stylistically, it would probably look better if he had the chance to fight against an opponent of equal strength, but that kind of situation did not arise.

I don't know if I agree that ZWJ reaching a great level at 20 means he's more talented and has more room to grow. ZWJ simply started earlier. YG was 14 before he learned any significant martial arts instruction at all, and his master was not a particularly bright martial arts theorist who had incomplete learnings herself. GJ was still learning completely mediocre arts at 16, when he finally got some instruction on QZ internal. At their ages, ZWJ already had access to arguably the best technique available in the world.

Martial arts level seems to plateau and come in spits and spurts, rather than linearly develop, so we don't know what ZWJ's level would be in his thirties, but in terms of length of development, you could make the case that YG going from zero at 14 to great level at 20 is the best 6 year improvement in the books. By that measure, it's hard to say that ZWJ was more talented or better suited for learning/development than him.

[CancerLuna]

One thing I think is frequently overlooked is the nature of ZWJ's martial arts. 9Yang is the opposite of 9Yin, which is the background of most of the other great-level fighters in the trilogy. It's inherently more of a passive, reactionary version to similar philosophies. Combine that with QKDNY, and TJS/TJQ which are about redirecting the opponent's strength, and you see ZWJ as a character with tons of abilities that are meant to be good at a passive style of fighting, but he struggles to produce overwhelming power on his own.

That kind of fighting style tends to fight down to the level of competition, because it struggles to create opponents by itself. You're essentially relying on the opponent to make the move, and then for you to create openings based on their moves. Stylistically, it would probably look better if he had the chance to fight against an opponent of equal strength, but that kind of situation did not arise.

That's a very good point you bring up about his fighting style. It might be similar to LHC's DG9J in that regard. Though I am reminded of Lav's list of ZWJ choke moments. ZWJ strikes me as having the 'uber attractive guy/gal' syndrome where they never develop a personality because they never had to. In ZWJ's case, he never developed proper fighting instincts/combat abilities because he never had to.