Born to be bad

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

Just finished watching The Snow is Red and found myself rooting for Lip Siu Feng.

The poor woman never stood a chance. Born to a loving but desperate mother and an absentee father. Hunted by most of the world.

Raised and fell in love with a cold, almost heartless man. Her own daughters turned against her, to the point of wanting to kill her. Except for her mother, she was hardly ever given any love or tenderness so it is no wonder she turned out to be a villain.

Yet even though I knew how it was going to turn out, I couldn't help but wish that there was a way to change Lip Siu Feng's fate. Was there any way the her tragic ending could have been avoided?

Are there any other villains who you wished could have been saved?

[Ian Liew]

I felt extremely sorry for Ada Choi in Revelation of the Last Hero, and felt that all the good sect people should have been shot for the way they treated her. Her mother, in particular, should have her nether regions infested with the bites of a thousand sandflies for first forcing her to tearfully turn evil, and then conveniently repenting and then acting all holier than thou with her.

[wkeej]

Are there any other villains who you wished could have been saved?

If you consider the following to be villains:
1. Ah Zhi
2. ZZR
3. YK

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

I felt extremely sorry for Ada Choi in Revelation of the Last Hero, and felt that all the good sect people should have been shot for the way they treated her. Her mother, in particular, should have her nether regions infested with the bites of a thousand sandflies for first forcing her to tearfully turn evil, and then conveniently repenting and then acting all holier than thou with her.

Agree with almost everything you say, but Ada's character loses some of my sympathy for her reason for turning, jealousy. When you compare her actions to the other two female lead characters who also had to deal with love-loss it is very hard to side with Ada. Noel Leung dealt with it with dignity and reservation, contented just to be a friend. Fennie Yuen suppressed her feelings and wholeheartedly wished Aaron's character all the best.

I found myself sympathising with Frankie Lam's character. How else could he react to knowing that his own father wanted to kill for simply being born under the wrong circumstances, or a childhood of strict discipline that bordered on child abuse.

[Ian Liew]

Agree with almost everything you say, but Ada's character loses some of my sympathy for her reason for turning, jealousy. When you compare her actions to the other two female lead characters who also had to deal with love-loss it is very hard to side with Ada. Noel Leung dealt with it with dignity and reservation, contented just to be a friend. Fennie Yuen suppressed her feelings and wholeheartedly wished Aaron's character all the best.

I have no doubt that Noel and Fennie handled themselves better, but my sympathy with Ada was that she was the lead choice at the start. She would give Aaron everything he needed, and proved herself to be a very valuable ally who would support her boyfriend even when it was obvious her mother would disapprove. It was only when she was forced to betray Aaron on her mother's orders, that the whole sec was basically going to work with Lau Kong's sect despite her tearful distress, that Aaron kind of never felt the same about her again. Noel never had a prayer in the first place - the only two things which made Aaron prefer Noel was that Ada betrayed him, and then Noel had that doom prophecy which made Aaron suddenly completely fearful of losing her to death. If it was Ada with that prophecy he would have done the exact same for her.

Ada basically had the world ahead of her with Aaron, and everything was crushed irrevocably because of her mother's orders and what I saw as Aaron's sympathy for Noel's condition. True, Ada could have stood up against her mother and betrayed mom instead, but her mother was pretty much the only person of influence in her life, and once the mother turned good it made me want to vomit as she never once took responsibility for what she turned Ada into. When Aaron showed his obvious preference for Noel, Ada no longer had any anchor to hold onto, and fell to the point where she was going to force herself to love Frankie just because he was the only one who loved her. I'm not disputing that Noel was a far better person, but Ada was good enough that the ending left me really depressed because everyone blamed her and Frankie as the villains when both of them were created through the deeds and misdeeds of the so-called heroes.

I have slightly less sympathy for Frankie as his goodness initially seemed to stem from ignorance, and was almost like a facade which he was accustomed to wearing. All the while you could feel that he wasn't quite himself, and nobody could be that naive.
It's like his goodness was never sincere, just a result of his training, but yes, his story was also extremely tragic, although his trigger to turn to evil was more of his own choice than Ada's.

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

I have no doubt that Noel and Fennie handled themselves better, but my sympathy with Ada was that she was the lead choice at the start. She would give Aaron everything he needed, and proved herself to be a very valuable ally who would support her boyfriend even when it was obvious her mother would disapprove. It was only when she was forced to betray Aaron on her mother's orders, that the whole sec was basically going to work with Lau Kong's sect despite her tearful distress, that Aaron kind of never felt the same about her again. Noel never had a prayer in the first place - the only two things which made Aaron prefer Noel was that Ada betrayed him, and then Noel had that doom prophecy which made Aaron suddenly completely fearful of losing her to death. If it was Ada with that prophecy he would have done the exact same for her.

Ada basically had the world ahead of her with Aaron, and everything was crushed irrevocably because of her mother's orders and what I saw as Aaron's sympathy for Noel's condition. True, Ada could have stood up against her mother and betrayed mom instead, but her mother was pretty much the only person of influence in her life, and once the mother turned good it made me want to vomit as she never once took responsibility for what she turned Ada into. When Aaron showed his obvious preference for Noel, Ada no longer had any anchor to hold onto, and fell to the point where she was going to force herself to love Frankie just because he was the only one who loved her. I'm not disputing that Noel was a far better person, but Ada was good enough that the ending left me really depressed because everyone blamed her and Frankie as the villains when both of them were created through the deeds and misdeeds of the so-called heroes.

I have slightly less sympathy for Frankie as his goodness initially seemed to stem from ignorance, and was almost like a facade which he was accustomed to wearing. All the while you could feel that he wasn't quite himself, and nobody could be that naive.
It's like his goodness was never sincere, just a result of his training, but yes, his story was also extremely tragic, although his trigger to turn to evil was more of his own choice than Ada's.

I agree that the initial straining in the relationship between Aaron and Ada was due to her mother's actions. But even so the situation was far from unsalvageable. The true break came when Ada tried to kill Noel and place the blame on Fennie. Those actions were taken completely on Ada's own initiative and cannot be blamed on her mother. While Ada's mother was willing to use her, she was also prepared to die for her when he took the blow Fennie meant for Ada, showing that she still loved her daughter and earning her some redemption. Ada however never showed any remorse for her actions, only regretting that he plan had failed, which seriously strains any sympathy I might have for her.

[Ian Liew]

I agree that the initial straining in the relationship between Aaron and Ada was due to her mother's actions. But even so the situation was far from unsalvageable. The true break came when Ada tried to kill Noel and place the blame on Fennie. Those actions were taken completely on Ada's own initiative and cannot be blamed on her mother. While Ada's mother was willing to use her, she was also prepared to die for her when he took the blow Fennie meant for Ada, showing that she still loved her daughter and earning her some redemption. Ada however never showed any remorse for her actions, only regretting that he plan had failed, which seriously strains any sympathy I might have for her.

By that point I believe Ada had already lost everything. The moment Aaron gave Noel the piece of chicken it was obvious to Ada that she had lost Aaron, and there was no way she was getting him back. There was also a big difference in the three girls reactions because Noel (at least initially) and Fennie only had to deal with friendzoning, unpleasant though as it was for them. Ada had to deal with loss (since she was Aaron's girlfriend), which was infinitely harder to take.

My problem with Ada's mother isn't relate to whether she loved Ada or not, but whether she actually realised that she created the entire situation, and whether she actually took responsibility for what Ada had to go through. It's one thing to love, it's another to understand, and the way she righteously rejected and criticised Ada, without making an attempt to share the blame and at least sympathise with her situation, really upset me. It's like her daughter is walking down the good path, then she forces the daughter to walk down the bad path with her. Daughter loses all credibility and trust from her boyfriend because of that, and then when mother decides to change to the path of light she blindly assumed that the daughter will just walk back with her nicely and everything will be the way things were. A bit more communication, understanding and burden-sharing would have prevented Ada's uncontrollable spiral down to the dark side.

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

By that point I believe Ada had already lost everything. The moment Aaron gave Noel the piece of chicken it was obvious to Ada that she had lost Aaron, and there was no way she was getting him back. There was also a big difference in the three girls reactions because Noel (at least initially) and Fennie only had to deal with friendzoning, unpleasant though as it was for them. Ada had to deal with loss (since she was Aaron's girlfriend), which was infinitely harder to take.

My problem with Ada's mother isn't relate to whether she loved Ada or not, but whether she actually realised that she created the entire situation, and whether she actually took responsibility for what Ada had to go through. It's one thing to love, it's another to understand, and the way she righteously rejected and criticised Ada, without making an attempt to share the blame and at least sympathise with her situation, really upset me. It's like her daughter is walking down the good path, then she forces the daughter to walk down the bad path with her. Daughter loses all credibility and trust from her boyfriend because of that, and then when mother decides to change to the path of light she blindly assumed that the daughter will just walk back with her nicely and everything will be the way things were. A bit more communication, understanding and burden-sharing would have prevented Ada's uncontrollable spiral down to the dark side.

But Aaron also gave a piece of the chicken to Ada, so he definitely still had feelings for her, and at that time neither of them had done anything that they could not go back on. Aaron's feelings for Noel's character was still unclear at this time, he himself did not know how much of it was love and how much of it was empathy for the prophecy hanging over her. I would call this point the cross-roads where the characters were deciding which path to take, and it was Ada's actions which ultimately decided their paths. Even if Aaron still loved her, how could he be with her after what she did.

Of course Ada's mother could have been more supportive, but in the end it was Ada who made the decision to kill one rival and frame the other. The responsibility for going down this path rest squarely on her shoulders.

[Trien Chieu]

Yeah, I really feel sorry for Ada and Frankie's characters. If they have good parents, they would not end up the way they were. I did not blame Frankie for killing his father. He killed him in self defense. If he did not kill him, he himself would be dead. What did his father expect from him? A filial son?

[Ken Cheng]

If you consider the following to be villains:
1. Ah Zhi
2. ZZR
3. YK

All three were, to some extent, products of their environment. They perhaps would have chosen to be different kinds of people under different circumstances.

[Ian Liew]

But Aaron also gave a piece of the chicken to Ada, so he definitely still had feelings for her, and at that time neither of them had done anything that they could not go back on. Aaron's feelings for Noel's character was still unclear at this time, he himself did not know how much of it was love and how much of it was empathy for the prophecy hanging over her. I would call this point the cross-roads where the characters were deciding which path to take, and it was Ada's actions which ultimately decided their paths. Even if Aaron still loved her, how could he be with her after what she did.

Of course Ada's mother could have been more supportive, but in the end it was Ada who made the decision to kill one rival and frame the other. The responsibility for going down this path rest squarely on her shoulders.

It's been around 20 years since I watched this so my memory may not be great, but I distinctly remember watching this scene, and the conclusion I got from it was that "Damn, Lok Fung prefers Ji Ping and he's not going to end up with Ling Seung - poor Ling Seung!". Given how solid a person Noel (Ji Ping) was, once Ada (Ling Seung) had lost ground it would have been impossible to ever make up, really. Her only advantage was how devoted Lok Fung was to her, and once that was gone it was obvious (at least to me) that she would never get him back. And Fennie... my goodness, how she gloated. That can't possibly have helped. I wanted to kick her and her "if I can't have him you can't either, nyah nyah serves you right" attitude. She took immense pleasure in seeing Ling Seung lose Lok Fung's attention, because she was so immensely jealous that Lok Fung rejected her initial advances in favour of Ada. Sure, Ling Seung wasn't exactly civil to Fennie, but I can't imagine any girl being civil to a potential rival butting in uninvited, and Fennie was hardly a pleasant person in the first place.

Anyway, it's probably a testament to how well the story was written that we can both interpret it in such different ways! Yes, I agree that Ling Seung made a conscious choice to turn evil, but didn't all sympathetic villains come to the same crossroads and choose the darker path which made them feel better? Lip Siu Fung did too.

Another person who comes to mind is Li Mochou. Mei Chaofeng almost qualifies, but she pretty much redeemed herself at the end, and died with Huang Yaoshi and Huang Rong weeping for her, so she probably doesn't count as one who wasn't saved. Hong Lingbo deserved a much much better fate, but I don't think she really counted as a real villain since she was basically just a henchwoman obeying her teacher's orders... but her teacher.. there were times I watched various adaptations of ROCH, and ended up forgetting that Li Mochou was a villain. She have these delightful scenes with Yang Guo and baby Guo Xiang, and fight side-by-side with Huang Rong against a greater evil, and suddenly the good guys attack her and I get caught off-guard and wonder why they were fighting each other. Then.. "ahhh, of course, Li Mochou was bad..." comes to mind, but I really did feel very sorry for her. Up until the moment she killed Hong Lingbo I really thought that there was going to be some redemption for her.

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

It's been around 20 years since I watched this so my memory may not be great, but I distinctly remember watching this scene, and the conclusion I got from it was that "Damn, Lok Fung prefers Ji Ping and he's not going to end up with Ling Seung - poor Ling Seung!". Given how solid a person Noel (Ji Ping) was, once Ada (Ling Seung) had lost ground it would have been impossible to ever make up, really. Her only advantage was how devoted Lok Fung was to her, and once that was gone it was obvious (at least to me) that she would never get him back. And Fennie... my goodness, how she gloated. That can't possibly have helped. I wanted to kick her and her "if I can't have him you can't either, nyah nyah serves you right" attitude. She took immense pleasure in seeing Ling Seung lose Lok Fung's attention, because she was so immensely jealous that Lok Fung rejected her initial advances in favour of Ada. Sure, Ling Seung wasn't exactly civil to Fennie, but I can't imagine any girl being civil to a potential rival butting in uninvited, and Fennie was hardly a pleasant person in the first place.

Anyway, it's probably a testament to how well the story was written that we can both interpret it in such different ways! Yes, I agree that Ling Seung made a conscious choice to turn evil, but didn't all sympathetic villains come to the same crossroads and choose the darker path which made them feel better? Lip Siu Fung did too.

I was also quite impressed by the performances of the lead actresses. All three of them were relatively new to the industry at the time but they all portrayed their characters very well, hence our discussion.

Another person who comes to mind is Li Mochou. Mei Chaofeng almost qualifies, but she pretty much redeemed herself at the end, and died with Huang Yaoshi and Huang Rong weeping for her, so she probably doesn't count as one who wasn't saved. Hong Lingbo deserved a much much better fate, but I don't think she really counted as a real villain since she was basically just a henchwoman obeying her teacher's orders... but her teacher.. there were times I watched various adaptations of ROCH, and ended up forgetting that Li Mochou was a villain. She have these delightful scenes with Yang Guo and baby Guo Xiang, and fight side-by-side with Huang Rong against a greater evil, and suddenly the good guys attack her and I get caught off-guard and wonder why they were fighting each other. Then.. "ahhh, of course, Li Mochou was bad..." comes to mind, but I really did feel very sorry for her. Up until the moment she killed Hong Lingbo I really thought that there was going to be some redemption for her

.

Just noticed it seems to be female villains people have most sympathy for. I wonder why that is? Is it because they are mostly motivated by emotions rather than greed for power? Or is it jut easier to portray multiple layers of character with women?

[Ian Liew]

I was also quite impressed by the performances of the lead actresses. All three of them were relatively new to the industry at the time but they all portrayed their characters very well, hence our discussion.

Fennie was a veteran of the big screen by that time, having made her debut in Happy Ghost 2 with other starlets like May Law and Charine Chan. I had never seen Ada or Noel before that, but if I remember correctly both were runner-ups from Miss Hong Kong paegants (although from different years). You're right that they were all really good actresses - nowadays we have so many Miss HK participants who can't act to save their lives no matter how much we loved them and wished them to *coughTracyIpcough*.
.

Just noticed it seems to be female villains people have most sympathy for. I wonder why that is? Is it because they are mostly motivated by emotions rather than greed for power? Or is it jut easier to portray multiple layers of character with women?

Maybe because we're men and have more sympathy for girls? Other than Frankie's Yiu Lik Hang, I can't think of any other male villain who I had sympathy for and who didn't at least repent before dying. In wuxia tragically villanous men in general do something really bad, and then die having redeemed themselves, while tragically villainous women usually die either rejecting, or being rejected by, the world. Lin Pingzhi is probably the only one who comes to mind, but by the time he turned bad I can't think of any way he could have turned back - I don't think any amount of loving and understanding support (and he had that in abundance with Yue Lingshan and to a certain extent with Linghu Chong) would have made an iota of difference to the path he chose to take.

[kidd]

Just finished watching The Snow is Red and found myself rooting for Lip Siu Feng.

The poor woman never stood a chance. Born to a loving but desperate mother and an absentee father. Hunted by most of the world.

Raised and fell in love with a cold, almost heartless man. Her own daughters turned against her, to the point of wanting to kill her. Except for her mother, she was hardly ever given any love or tenderness so it is no wonder she turned out to be a villain.

Yet even though I knew how it was going to turn out, I couldn't help but wish that there was a way to change Lip Siu Feng's fate. Was there any way the her tragic ending could have been avoided?

Are there any other villains who you wished could have been saved?

I disagree that Siu Fung never stood a chance. Her mindset is too in flexible. It's either option A or B for her. It's either she live in seclusion with Lo Yuen as lovers\family or she avenge her mother by causing havoc in wulin. There is no option 3 in her mind. Tin Seung loved her. Lo Yuen's friend stood up for her. But, she didn't appreciate Tin Seung and only made used of Lo Yuen's friend. She only wanted Lo Yuen.

It's sad that people are prejudice against her because of her lineage, even her hero, Lo Yuen. But, at the same time, she did secretly learn her mother's skill aiming for revenge.

Lo Yuen was strict and maybe a bit prejudice, but, was he cold and heartless? Lo Yuen gave her his flute and taught her to play it when she showed interest in the flute. He did show her kindness. But, he can't reciprocate her love because his moral and principle dictates against it. In the olden days, a teacher is like a father to his student. There's a saying '‘日為師，終身為父'. Would it be ok if a father give in to his desire and has love relationship with his daughter?

Her daughter Gong Suet has all the odds stack against her too. Everyone hated her and thought bad of her because she's from Ming Ngok Sect. The man she loves didn't love her back even after all the sacrifices she did for him. But, did she turn bad? Did she hate the world? No, she chose the good path. Nip Siu Fung can chose the path of good too. But, she didn't. She cannot let go, which is her ultimate downfall.

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

I disagree that Siu Fung never stood a chance. Her mindset is too in flexible. It's either option A or B for her. It's either she live in seclusion with Lo Yuen as lovers\family or she avenge her mother by causing havoc in wulin. There is no option 3 in her mind. Tin Seung loved her. Lo Yuen's friend stood up for her. But, she didn't appreciate Tin Seung and only made used of Lo Yuen's friend. She only wanted Lo Yuen.

So the third option was to be the victim. Your mother gets butchered in front of you, you forget it. The man you love impregnates you then dumps you, you move on. You accept the love of a man you have no such feelings for and be grateful for it. In essence her option was to be meek and quietly accept whatever life throws at her.

It's sad that people are prejudice against her because of her lineage, even her hero, Lo Yuen. But, at the same time, she did secretly learn her mother's skill aiming for revenge.

Yet nobody ever objected to Qiao Feng seeking revenge for his murdered parents.

Lo Yuen was strict and maybe a bit prejudice, but, was he cold and heartless? Lo Yuen gave her his flute and taught her to play it when she showed interest in the flute. He did show her kindness. But, he can't reciprocate her love because his moral and principle dictates against it. In the olden days, a teacher is like a father to his student. There's a saying '‘日為師，終身為父'. Would it be ok if a father give in to his desire and has love relationship with his daughter?

But this is exactly the same situation as the classic love story in ROCH. The only difference here is that the 'Sifu' in ROCH had the guts to follow her heart while here Lo Yuen was too weak to do so. As the elder he should shoulder the bulk of the responsibility for allowing the relationship to turn physical. I know he was poisoned at the time, but as you have stated he had already given indications of feelings towards her and all the situation did was remove/lower his inhibitions. When the relationship had became physical how did he deal with it? By giving her the cold shoulder, hiding from his responsibility and giving her no support or even empathy.

Her daughter Gong Suet has all the odds stack against her too. Everyone hated her and thought bad of her because she's from Ming Ngok Sect. The man she loves didn't love her back even after all the sacrifices she did for him. But, did she turn bad? Did she hate the world? No, she chose the good path. Nip Siu Fung can chose the path of good too. But, she didn't. She cannot let go, which is her ultimate downfall.

But was the daughter hunted is a child. Did she have to watch her own mother gang murdered in front of her. From her happy go lucky demeanour it would be safe to say she never experienced such traumatic events. Further more, when she had defeated her mother did she show any warmth to the broken woman? No she just looked at her then turned around and abandoned her like everyone she had ever loved.

[kidd]

So the third option was to be the victim. Your mother gets butchered in front of you, you forget it. The man you love impregnates you then dumps you, you move on. You accept the love of a man you have no such feelings for and be grateful for it. In essence her option was to be meek and quietly accept whatever life throws at her.

The third option is to let go. Letting go is not the same as being a victim. You said you wish Siu Fung could be saved. But, given her mindset, the only way she can be saved is Lo Yuen reciprocating her love. She fix herself in a corner with no way out.

Yet nobody ever objected to Qiao Feng seeking revenge for his murdered parents.

Qiao Feng didn't set up an evil sect to terrorize the whole wulin.

But this is exactly the same situation as the classic love story in ROCH. The only difference here is that the 'Sifu' in ROCH had the guts to follow her heart while here Lo Yuen was too weak to do so. As the elder he should shoulder the bulk of the responsibility for allowing the relationship to turn physical. I know he was poisoned at the time, but as you have stated he had already given indications of feelings towards her and all the situation did was remove/lower his inhibitions. When the relationship had became physical how did he deal with it? By giving her the cold shoulder, hiding from his responsibility and giving her no support or even empathy.

I ask you again. Are you ok with a father giving in to his desire and build a love relationship with his own daughter?
This is not exactly the same situation as in ROCH. Dragon Girl was never instilled in her the notion that she is YG's mom. Her obstacle are all external. In Lo Yuen's case, his inner compass said it's wrong. At the end, Siu Fung asked him why he won't be with her even if he can choose again and he reply, because it's against the 'tao'.

But was the daughter hunted is a child. Did she have to watch her own mother gang murdered in front of her. From her happy go lucky demeanour it would be safe to say she never experienced such traumatic events. Further more, when she had defeated her mother did she show any warmth to the broken woman? No she just looked at her then turned around and abandoned her like everyone she had ever loved.

I agree that Gong Suet shouldn't be so cold towards her mother. This is one part I don't like about Gong Suet. But, Gong Suet has her own traumatic experience too. Siu Fung killed her only friend and her body was thrown to the dogs. That's gonna be traumatic.

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

The third option is to let go. Letting go is not the same as being a victim. You said you wish Siu Fung could be saved. But, given her mindset, the only way she can be saved is Lo Yuen reciprocating her love. She fix herself in a corner with no way out.

So you expect SF to be a saint while everyone around her is a sinner. That is a bit too demanding.

Qiao Feng didn't set up an evil sect to terrorize the whole wulin.

And how did wulin treat her and her mother. She owed them nothing but pain and death.

I ask you again. Are you ok with a father giving in to his desire and build a love relationship with his own daughter?
This is not exactly the same situation as in ROCH. Dragon Girl was never instilled in her the notion that she is YG's mom. Her obstacle are all external. In Lo Yuen's case, his inner compass said it's wrong. At the end, Siu Fung asked him why he won't be with her even if he can choose again and he reply, because it's against the 'tao'.

And where was his moral compass when he slept with her. The so called 'Sifu/apprentice' relationship is an artificial construct and 'tao' is reached by looking through what is fake and finding the truth. LY's feelings for SF were true and so was her love for him. By rejecting them he is rejection the truth and living a lie.