Who was more moral Guo Jing or Yang Guo?

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

On the surface this is a no brainer. GJ is often seen as a paragon for morality, always doing what is right no matter the personal cost, while YG is the reckless youth, wild and unpredictable.

However if we look at how their extreme personalities deals with actual problems it becomes a lot less clear cut.

GJ has a very strong sense of innate justice and almost every action he takes is governed by this. Most of the time this instinct is correct and he makes the right choice, but what happens when they are wrong? An example would be when he thought Huang Yaoshi killed his teachers. Here he went totally by instincts, along with very flimsy evidence and came very close to killing an innocent man.

I accept there were many extenuating circumstances and HYS own behaviour did not help, but it was only by pure luck that GJ did not make an irreparable mistake, showing the danger of his moral code.


YG's mistakes are well known, but when faced with a similar scenario, ie. when he thought GJ was responsible for his father's death, he behaved quite differently. He had ample opportunity to kill GJ, but each time he weighed up the pros and cons, looked at the evidence and what he knew of GJ. In the end he made the right choice by doing the exact opposite of what GJ did. He ignored his instincts and studied the evidence.

So which of them is the more moral hero.

[CancerLuna]

Not sure about more moral, but YG is definitely smarter than GJ.

[Snafu3721]

Morality will always be subjective
But given the context of the novels--

GJ is still more moral, and his pursuit/execution of his moral standards is closer to the what is considered "upright" and "just"
Also, I believe in the opposite of what you propose in regards to the two character's rational thought processes. GJ had no evidence presented at all that HYS is innocent. In fact HYS admitted he is the killer! Yet, GJ was still conflicted due to his love for HR (shows morality). And when presented with actual evidence, he apologized. YG on the other hand refused to believe any of the subtle evidences that GJ is a bonifide god damn hero and that his father YK may actually be a punk. In fact, YG didn't actively study any of the evidence he was presented, he just got emotional and ran away from the problem (because he did realize that GJ is a decent man and important for the country-- shows small sense of morality). Not until he was presented with the TRUTH, which he was not actively searching for, did he finally realize he was wrong.

Here is another way to analyze:

How would the two protagonist be judged should they have both murdered their intended targets by the world and society?

1) I believe everyone would say, GJ did the right thing. He was trying to avenge his masters which is honorable. And the person he killed is Eastern Heretic who is known to be an eccentric killer himself. And HYS provoked the confrontation by admitting he is the guilty party. Now, even if future evidence were to be revealed that HYS was innocent, no one would blame GJ for his actions

2) YG is a jerk...j/k. Should the same have happened for YG, this would turn out very bad. YG killed a Song hero WHILE assisting the enemy. To the public eye, this is someone who is willing to sacrifice his own country for petty murder. And if future evidence showed that GJ is innocent... well, let's just say YG may jump off a cliff, but not because of looking for XLN

Again, morality is subjective...and societal standards will always be a big benchmark

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

Morality will always be subjective
But given the context of the novels--

GJ is still more moral, and his pursuit/execution of his moral standards is closer to the what is considered "upright" and "just"
Also, I believe in the opposite of what you propose in regards to the two character's rational thought processes. GJ had no evidence presented at all that HYS is innocent. In fact HYS admitted he is the killer! Yet, GJ was still conflicted due to his love for HR (shows morality). And when presented with actual evidence, he apologized. YG on the other hand refused to believe any of the subtle evidences that GJ is a bonifide god damn hero and that his father YK may actually be a punk. In fact, YG didn't actively study any of the evidence he was presented, he just got emotional and ran away from the problem (because he did realize that GJ is a decent man and important for the country-- shows small sense of morality). Not until he was presented with the TRUTH, which he was not actively searching for, did he finally realize he was wrong.

Here is another way to analyze:

How would the two protagonist be judged should they have both murdered their intended targets by the world and society?

1) I believe everyone would say, GJ did the right thing. He was trying to avenge his masters which is honorable. And the person he killed is Eastern Heretic who is known to be an eccentric killer himself. And HYS provoked the confrontation by admitting he is the guilty party. Now, even if future evidence were to be revealed that HYS was innocent, no one would blame GJ for his actions

2) YG is a jerk...j/k. Should the same have happened for YG, this would turn out very bad. YG killed a Song hero WHILE assisting the enemy. To the public eye, this is someone who is willing to sacrifice his own country for petty murder. And if future evidence showed that GJ is innocent... well, let's just say YG may jump off a cliff, but not because of looking for XLN

Again, morality is subjective...and societal standards will always be a big benchmark

However if we place the respective protagonist in the others shoes how would they have reacted:

1) If YG had stumbled into the scene of the 7 freaks murder would he had immediately jumped to the conclusion that GJ did. Lets see the evidence.
a) The motive for HYS killing them was the that second freak broke into his wife's tomb and tried to steal her burial goods. But GJ himself said that although his teacher was known as the light-fingered scholar he would never stoop so low. So how would he explain this scene? Did HYS kill the man, drag him into the tomb and then stuff the goods into his clothes. HYS was eccentric not stupid.
b) Even if you knew absolutely nothing about HYS, the fact that he built such a magnificent tomb for his wife shows he truly loved her. Why would a devoted husband leave 4 rotting corpses in his wife's tomb and then just leave?
c) The key witness was he first freak. Given HYS level of Martial Arts and that fact he was on Peach Island, what are the chances of a wounded blind man escaping if he did not want him to. Hell I doubt even a Great could leave Peach Island if HYS did not want them to.

Given what we know about YG all these glaring flaws would have been immediately obvious, while GJ sticking to his standards threw all this out the window.

2) If GJ discovered/believed that a National Hero had murdered his father and the Hero admitted at least partial guilt and even condemned his father, would GJ had taken time to analyse the situation. Weigh up the evidence? Your previous point that social standards weigh very heavily on GJ would work against him as the old saying "in a hundred virtues, piety to your parents come first". By the moral standards of the time then by not avenging his father the protagonist was committing a serious socially immoral act.

YG more flexible way of thinking prevented him from doing this, but given GJ's rigid mindset would he?

[Ian Liew]

Guo Jing's inability to see through the deception at Peach Blossom Island reflects his intelligence, not his moral compass. Even Huang Rong, who nobody would usually associate with a moral compass, was confused enough during the first scene, but unlike Guo Jing, she had a more rational mind and wasn't blinded by despair and grief.

Similarly, with Yang Guo, his rationale for sparing Guo Jing wasn't because he knew that Guo Jing was right and his father was wrong - in fact, the circumstances of the past meant nothing to his decision. The fact that Guo Jing was a good man who loved him, loved his country and loved the Song people were what made him think. Those traits did not cast doubt on whether Guo Jing killed his father, but whether he thought that his filial duty to his father was worth more than Guo Jing's love for him and those who depend on him. He also knew that Guo Jing was one of only three people who really ever loved him, and it's only natural to hesitate, and possibly even defer the decision to kill him. Yang Guo's subsequent actions in helping the Guo family, saving him from the mercenaries and protecting Xiangyang, though, did show a strength of moral character, but I still wouldn't say he had more moral fiber than Guo Jing. If Guo Jing hadn't loved him that much it wouldn't have mattered how many people's lives depended on him - Yang Guo would have slit his throat as he slept.

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

Guo Jing's inability to see through the deception at Peach Blossom Island reflects his intelligence, not his moral compass. Even Huang Rong, who nobody would usually associate with a moral compass, was confused enough during the first scene, but unlike Guo Jing, she had a more rational mind and wasn't blinded by despair and grief.

Similarly, with Yang Guo, his rationale for sparing Guo Jing wasn't because he knew that Guo Jing was right and his father was wrong - in fact, the circumstances of the past meant nothing to his decision. The fact that Guo Jing was a good man who loved him, loved his country and loved the Song people were what made him think. Those traits did not cast doubt on whether Guo Jing killed his father, but whether he thought that his filial duty to his father was worth more than Guo Jing's love for him and those who depend on him. He also knew that Guo Jing was one of only three people who really ever loved him, and it's only natural to hesitate, and possibly even defer the decision to kill him. Yang Guo's subsequent actions in helping the Guo family, saving him from the mercenaries and protecting Xiangyang, though, did show a strength of moral character, but I still wouldn't say he had more moral fiber than Guo Jing. If Guo Jing hadn't loved him that much it wouldn't have mattered how many people's lives depended on him - Yang Guo would have slit his throat as he slept.

People often use GJ supposed stupidity as an excuse for his mistakes, yet condemn YG when he allows his emotions to get the better of him. Why is that?

Why is limited intelligent pardonable but not emotional instability? Neither are traits that a person can fully control but why is one more acceptable then the other? At least YG more often than not allows his intellect to override his emotions , while GJ rarely ever does. Just because GJ had a rigid code, without intelligence to balance it, this could very easily turn to fanaticism.

[tape]

Strictly by morality I don't think you could ever fault Guo Jing -- he might be dumb and arrive at the wrong conclusions, but morality would never be the excuse.

Yang Guo at the least thought of killing him in his sleep; would Guo Jing ever even consider that (if they switched places)? He would fight you to the death and die living with the results.

I don't agree with all of Guo Jing's decisions of course, (he's not too great in ROCH), but his heart is always in the right place.

[Ian Liew]

People often use GJ supposed stupidity as an excuse for his mistakes, yet condemn YG when he allows his emotions to get the better of him. Why is that?

Why is limited intelligent pardonable but not emotional instability? Neither are traits that a person can fully control but why is one more acceptable then the other? At least YG more often than not allows his intellect to override his emotions , while GJ rarely ever does. Just because GJ had a rigid code, without intelligence to balance it, this could very easily turn to fanaticism.

I'm not faulting YG's emotions or using GJ's stupidity as an excuse, but just highlighting that I don't believe either reflect a person's innate morality.

[Snafu3721]

I hadn't thought to switch the characters' shoes, but would be interesting to analyze

However if we place the respective protagonist in the others shoes how would they have reacted:

1) If YG had stumbled into the scene of the 7 freaks murder would he had immediately jumped to the conclusion that GJ did. Lets see the evidence.

Pre-16 year YG--Definitely YES. YG is way more emotional and hot headed compared with GJ at the same age. If YG had stumbled upon XLN's (his master) murder, I think he could've had the potential to do ANYTHING whether moral or not.

a) The motive for HYS killing them was the that second freak broke into his wife's tomb and tried to steal her burial goods. But GJ himself said that although his teacher was known as the light-fingered scholar he would never stoop so low. So how would he explain this scene? Did HYS kill the man, drag him into the tomb and then stuff the goods into his clothes. HYS was eccentric not stupid.
b) Even if you knew absolutely nothing about HYS, the fact that he built such a magnificent tomb for his wife shows he truly loved her. Why would a devoted husband leave 4 rotting corpses in his wife's tomb and then just leave?

I agree that the logic doesn't quite add up and that GJ's intelligence would've hindered any CSI analytical processes. But GJ handled an emotional situation as best as any person could and did try to find out WHY this atrocity occured. It was just HYS being eccentric that caused more misunderstanding.

I am not sure if YG's intelligence/logical nature would have prevailed because he has shown on many occasions that his emotional temperament overrides his intelligence. He does show clutch restraint before acting on his impulse, but not sure if he can do that if his beloved master XLN was murdered.

c) The key witness was he first freak. Given HYS level of Martial Arts and that fact he was on Peach Island, what are the chances of a wounded blind man escaping if he did not want him to. Hell I doubt even a Great could leave Peach Island if HYS did not want them to.

Given what we know about YG all these glaring flaws would have been immediately obvious, while GJ sticking to his standards threw all this out the window.

Again, I wouldn't give YG the benefit of the doubt, because based on the various evidence presented in ROCH, he wasn't able to deduce GJ's innocence. In fact, he kept trying to rationalize with himself, through great internal conflict, whether to kill GJ or not. When all evidence suggest that GJ isn't an evil man... GJ shows genuine affection towards YG... and should the Guo couple be really as conniving as they are suspected to be, why didn't they just kill YG to spare them the potential trouble of revenge (especially given that YG knows how smart and scheming HR can be)?

2) If GJ discovered/believed that a National Hero had murdered his father and the Hero admitted at least partial guilt and even condemned his father, would GJ had taken time to analyse the situation. Weigh up the evidence? Your previous point that social standards weigh very heavily on GJ would work against him as the old saying "in a hundred virtues, piety to your parents come first". By the moral standards of the time then by not avenging his father the protagonist was committing a serious socially immoral act.

YG more flexible way of thinking prevented him from doing this, but given GJ's rigid mindset would he?

Actually, I think GJ would have spent more time and thought deeper on this particular conundrum. He isn't as explosive emotionally as YG and has demonstrated the maturity to weigh moral consequences. He did spare his father's ACTUAL killer. And he can think deeply when he was fighting for the Mongols and weighing the morality of war and the lives that would cost even if it means he has to oppose his Kahn.

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

Pre-16 year YG--Definitely YES. YG is way more emotional and hot headed compared with GJ at the same age. If YG had stumbled upon XLN's (his master) murder, I think he could've had the potential to do ANYTHING whether moral or not.

I agree that the logic doesn't quite add up and that GJ's intelligence would've hindered any CSI analytical processes. But GJ handled an emotional situation as best as any person could and did try to find out WHY this atrocity occured. It was just HYS being eccentric that caused more misunderstanding.

I am not sure if YG's intelligence/logical nature would have prevailed because he has shown on many occasions that his emotional temperament overrides his intelligence. He does show clutch restraint before acting on his impulse, but not sure if he can do that if his beloved master XLN was murdered.

But YG did show this on the two occasions when he did think XLN was dead/missing. Pre 16 years when she disappeared and left the writing on the stone, we went into one of his berserker rages but he was able to retain enough of his sanity to listen to Cheng Ying. Then Post 16 years when he really thought she was dead, he still remained calm enough to save GX rather than just lash out. He did all this in a matter of moments while GJ had days to cool down and look at the frankly very flimsy evidence.

Again, I wouldn't give YG the benefit of the doubt, because based on the various evidence presented in ROCH, he wasn't able to deduce GJ's innocence. In fact, he kept trying to rationalize with himself, through great internal conflict, whether to kill GJ or not. When all evidence suggest that GJ isn't an evil man... GJ shows genuine affection towards YG... and should the Guo couple be really as conniving as they are suspected to be, why didn't they just kill YG to spare them the potential trouble of revenge (especially given that YG knows how smart and scheming HR can be)?

I would actually use this as evidence that YG would have not given into his emotions. He could not reconcile the idea of GJ being both a good man and his father's killer and so refused to act on the impulse to kill GJ, thus avenging his father and saving his own life. We must remember that one of the pivotal point in ROCH was when GJ refused to let even a single innocent refugee die. Here YG used the evidence of GJ personality to override his impulse to just let GJ die. If the situation was reversed and GJ had the opportunity to save his father's killer would he?

In addition what evidence of GJ innocence in YK's death was ever presented. The Guo couples always evaded YG's direct questioning or gave cryptic answers. The only solid piece of evidence YG ever had was the testimony of Shagu and GJ admitting partial guilt. Even the most rational person in the world would be suspicious in these circumstances.

Actually, I think GJ would have spent more time and thought deeper on this particular conundrum. He isn't as explosive emotionally as YG and has demonstrated the maturity to weigh moral consequences. He did spare his father's ACTUAL killer. And he can think deeply when he was fighting for the Mongols and weighing the morality of war and the lives that would cost even if it means he has to oppose his Kahn.

I agree that YG has an explosive personality but can you give me one example of him ever hurting an innocent person even when in the grip of his berserker fury. GJ had plenty of time to think about his teachers murder before running into HYS, more than enough to figure out the glaring holes in the evidence but did he do this?

Not sure when he spared his father's killer, please elaborate.

GJ only thought about the morals of war when he saw the horrors of it to his face and when the Khan wanted to invade Song lands. He had no problem leading the Mongol armies if he did not have to see their atrocities or if the target were not Han Chinese.

[Golgo 13]

People often use GJ supposed stupidity as an excuse for his mistakes, yet condemn YG when he allows his emotions to get the better of him. Why is that?

Why is limited intelligent pardonable but not emotional instability? Neither are traits that a person can fully control but why is one more acceptable then the other? At least YG more often than not allows his intellect to override his emotions , while GJ rarely ever does. Just because GJ had a rigid code, without intelligence to balance it, this could very easily turn to fanaticism.

Agree with this 100%, especially the last sentence.

[Snafu3721]

But YG did show this on the two occasions when he did think XLN was dead/missing. Pre 16 years when she disappeared and left the writing on the stone, we went into one of his berserker rages but he was able to retain enough of his sanity to listen to Cheng Ying. Then Post 16 years when he really thought she was dead, he still remained calm enough to save GX rather than just lash out. He did all this in a matter of moments while GJ had days to cool down and look at the frankly very flimsy evidence.

Pre-16 years: YG thought XLN went missing. He didn't see her dead body with with blood written on the floor that could've been misconstrued. Imagine if YG had found XLN's body in GJ's house with a word that looked like "Huang" or "Guo". I really don't think YG would've have acted any better.

Post 16 years: YG was much more mature (which is why I used pre-16 YG in my previous post). He has definitely cooled down quote a bit in temperament. But I do still think there is a difference between YG's actions and GJ's. When YG thought XLN had died, there really was no suspected murderer. It was a culmination of the harsh experiences and bad luck that presumably led XLN to suicide; which gives no reason for YG to seek revenge. Hence, not a good reflection on his morality or judgement.

I would actually use this as evidence that YG would have not given into his emotions. He could not reconcile the idea of GJ being both a good man and his father's killer and so refused to act on the impulse to kill GJ, thus avenging his father and saving his own life. We must remember that one of the pivotal point in ROCH was when GJ refused to let even a single innocent refugee die. Here YG used the evidence of GJ personality to override his impulse to just let GJ die. If the situation was reversed and GJ had the opportunity to save his father's killer would he?

As I mentioned before in my previous post as well, YG does pull through morally in very clutch situations. Although it's not his first instinct, but he does have a good/heroic side that always overrides his more selfish desires. This is the part where I think is the reason people would argue GJ is more "moral". Because GJ's default is "heroic". He rarely has to go into any internal debate over his moral compass or actions. And even if he does, it's usually resolved very quickly with him pursuing the "most socially acceptable and upright" action. GJ is the gold standard... he's not complex when it comes to morality.

And I think if the shoes were truly reversed, GJ would also save his father's killer, especially if that suspect is a hero. let's say some rumor or very strange coincidence had alluded to a hero (like a H7G/XF/WCY type) being GJ's father's killer. And that hero has shown kindness and love to GJ. I think GJ would definitely help that person-- in fact, I think GJ would not have set a trap for that person in the first place placing that hero in a situation where he needed saving. GJ sparred his enemy OYF based on HONOR. He would definitely spare a hero, even if he thinks that person may be a potential killer.

In addition what evidence of GJ innocence in YK's death was ever presented. The Guo couples always evaded YG's direct questioning or gave cryptic answers. The only solid piece of evidence YG ever had was the testimony of Shagu and GJ admitting partial guilt. Even the most rational person in the world would be suspicious in these circumstances.

Agree with the argument that the Guo's never presented any evidence they were innocent. We can get into reasons why, but that's a different topic.
That's the thing with YG though. For being so smart as well... he didn't try to figure out the truth. I've always liked/hated that aspect of YG as a character. But that's also another topic

I agree that YG has an explosive personality but can you give me one example of him ever hurting an innocent person even when in the grip of his berserker fury. GJ had plenty of time to think about his teachers murder before running into HYS, more than enough to figure out the glaring holes in the evidence but did he do this?

I have to say, if one wasn't looking at ALL the detail for the truth, it paints a pretty bad picture for HYS. The evidence pointing to HYS as a murderer is WAY more significant than any evidence YG would have that GJ was a murderer.

I admit tere are holes in the evidence, but I think not even YG would have stayed rational enough to have seriously thought it through. The only one who had a vested interest and was intelligent enough to even think of the holes was HR. And GJ also was very calm when he discovered the deaths of his masters. He didn't go berserk, it demonstrates his level headedness in conflict. And GJ didn't have plenty of time to think... he was grieving and digging up graves for his masters.

Not sure when he spared his father's killer, please elaborate.

I may have remembered incorrectly. I kept thinking he spared DuanTiande... but couldn't find any excerpts. May be from an adaptation or some confusion with another wuxia series.

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

Pre-16 years: YG thought XLN went missing. He didn't see her dead body with with blood written on the floor that could've been misconstrued. Imagine if YG had found XLN's body in GJ's house with a word that looked like "Huang" or "Guo". I really don't think YG would've have acted any better.

Post 16 years: YG was much more mature (which is why I used pre-16 YG in my previous post). He has definitely cooled down quote a bit in temperament. But I do still think there is a difference between YG's actions and GJ's. When YG thought XLN had died, there really was no suspected murderer. It was a culmination of the harsh experiences and bad luck that presumably led XLN to suicide; which gives no reason for YG to seek revenge. Hence, not a good reflection on his morality or judgement.

Pre 16 years - When GF hacked of his arm, poisoned XLN then taunted him, he still retained enough of his coolness to not kill her. I doubt even GJ would keep his calm if someone did all this to him.
Post 16 years -It was GF who caused his mutilation and XLN's death. It was HR who lied to him for 16 years. Now in front of him was their sister/daughter, yet the idea of taking out his frustration on her did not even cross his mind.

As I mentioned before in my previous post as well, YG does pull through morally in very clutch situations. Although it's not his first instinct, but he does have a good/heroic side that always overrides his more selfish desires. This is the part where I think is the reason people would argue GJ is more "moral". Because GJ's default is "heroic". He rarely has to go into any internal debate over his moral compass or actions. And even if he does, it's usually resolved very quickly with him pursuing the "most socially acceptable and upright" action. GJ is the gold standard... he's not complex when it comes to morality.

And I think if the shoes were truly reversed, GJ would also save his father's killer, especially if that suspect is a hero. let's say some rumor or very strange coincidence had alluded to a hero (like a H7G/XF/WCY type) being GJ's father's killer. And that hero has shown kindness and love to GJ. I think GJ would definitely help that person-- in fact, I think GJ would not have set a trap for that person in the first place placing that hero in a situation where he needed saving. GJ sparred his enemy OYF based on HONOR. He would definitely spare a hero, even if he thinks that person may be a potential killer.

But this actually reflects YG's moral superiority as he did have to struggle. GJ has no conflict, to him there is only ever the one way so any decisions he makes are easy. YG he can see multiple options, he had to fight and choose the right one making his decisions much harder, To use an old quote, 'it is easy to be a saint in paradise'. GJ is on a moral paradise so he is a natural saint, but YG has countless temptations and he is a saint by his own choice and struggles.

Agree with the argument that the Guo's never presented any evidence they were innocent. We can get into reasons why, but that's a different topic.
That's the thing with YG though. For being so smart as well... he didn't try to figure out the truth. I've always liked/hated that aspect of YG as a character. But that's also another topic

Being smart is one thing but like Arthur Conan Doyle wrote, 'you cannot build a house without bricks'. How can YG come to the truth without facts. All he had to go on was Shagu's words and the Guo's evasion. He took into account GJ personality and actions so decided not to kill him. But to accept that GJ killing his father was justified he would have to accept his father being a villain. That is a lot to ask for from anyone, especially when no evidence at the time had been provided.

I have to say, if one wasn't looking at ALL the detail for the truth, it paints a pretty bad picture for HYS. The evidence pointing to HYS as a murderer is WAY more significant than any evidence YG would have that GJ was a murderer.

I admit tere are holes in the evidence, but I think not even YG would have stayed rational enough to have seriously thought it through. The only one who had a vested interest and was intelligent enough to even think of the holes was HR. And GJ also was very calm when he discovered the deaths of his masters. He didn't go berserk, it demonstrates his level headedness in conflict. And GJ didn't have plenty of time to think... he was grieving and digging up graves for his masters.

But days later when he ran into HYS he had had plenty of time to think things over. Yet his first move was to attack the man. Hardly a calm collective individual.

I may have remembered incorrectly. I kept thinking he spared DuanTiande... but couldn't find any excerpts. May be from an adaptation or some confusion with another wuxia series.

Fair enough, we all forget things. I am 36 now so I will probably do it more and more.

[Snafu3721]

@Mandred

I think it will boil down to an individual's view on the nature of morality. Which would get quite philosophical. In fact, from a certain perspective, I agree with many of your views and arguments.

Morality, or the lenses through which it is judged, is subjective.


Let's not think about switching the characters' places-- because I can already see that we would have different expectations of GJ and YG. But let's explore the idea of morality a bit:


YG and the instances where he demonstrates morality in ROCH is complex. He constantly defies the cultural and societal standard. This in and of itself can be viewed as amoral. And he constantly has to wrestle his inner demons which shows he has a darker side. YG does consistently pull through with the "right/moral" decisions in the end, but one sometimes wonder to what extent is this self-serving and to what extent this is truly altruistic (it's hard given that his own standards of right and wrong already conflicting with society's). This makes YG a complex character from an internal perspective, which is why I love/hate him. I love his complexity, but I don't like his flaws.

GJ is simple. He adheres to the standard of which is admired by everyone. He rarely faces internal demons because he has this innate capacity to always try for the greater good. He doesn't have to think, he knows what's right-- he might not like it, but he knows what's the "right" thing to do. All his actions, if presented to another "hero", would all be commended. GJ isn't perfect and makes mistakes, but his heart is always in the right place.

I guess it's like comparing Superman and Batman (And I don't mean the new modern gritty twisted versions).
GJ is like Superman. He's the embodiment of what the world thinks is good. He tries always to do the right thing and feels incorruptible.
YG can be dark, has dark spaces where he holds his pain. He pursues his agendas to remove the chips on his shoulders, even if one of the agendas is actually to be a better person. He questions morality and the extent that it is constructed by society. Which is why he takes after HYS

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

@Snafu3721

Good analysis between Superman/Batman. I am a fan of the latter, so I am more inclined to YG.

Ultimately this comes down to social moral vs individual moral. I remember reading a thread that once compared the three condor trilogy protagonists to the three main philosophies of China. GJ=Confucianism, YG=Taoist and ZWJ=Buddhist. This seems very adapt. GJ is social morality made flesh, every action he makes is for and condoned by society.

YG is the individual, everything he does adheres to amoral code the individual must make from there experience and natural inclinations.

[Ken Cheng]

I've always thought Kiu Fung is more analogous to Superman - "strange visitor from another land/world with abilities far above those of ordinary/mortal men."

Gwok Jing strikes me more as Captain America (Captain China?).

Yeung Gor reminds me of the second Robin (and later Red Hood), Jason Todd...or if we're going with Gwok Jing being Captain America, then Yeung Gor would be Bucky/the Winter Soldier.

[ChanceEncounter]

YG and the instances where he demonstrates morality in ROCH is complex. He constantly defies the cultural and societal standard. This in and of itself can be viewed as amoral. And he constantly has to wrestle his inner demons which shows he has a darker side. YG does consistently pull through with the "right/moral" decisions in the end, but one sometimes wonder to what extent is this self-serving and to what extent this is truly altruistic (it's hard given that his own standards of right and wrong already conflicting with society's). This makes YG a complex character from an internal perspective, which is why I love/hate him. I love his complexity, but I don't like his flaws.

GJ is simple. He adheres to the standard of which is admired by everyone. He rarely faces internal demons because he has this innate capacity to always try for the greater good. He doesn't have to think, he knows what's right-- he might not like it, but he knows what's the "right" thing to do. All his actions, if presented to another "hero", would all be commended. GJ isn't perfect and makes mistakes, but his heart is always in the right place.

But this would actually be an argument for why YG is more moral than GJ. Anyone can make the right decisions when they are rewarded for them and praised as good and just. It's purely Pavlovian. If you are immediately rewarded for making the right decision, how do you differentiate whether you did it because it was the right thing to do, or because you're after acceptance/reward from the larger community?

Put another way, we rarely see GJ in a situation where he was pressured to do the right thing when he would be judged harshly for doing it. YG, on the other hand, who spends must of the novel hated or misunderstood, ends up needing to honestly search within himself, do I do what is easy or do I do what is right, because for him the dilemma is more pronounced, and what is right is not always what is easy or popular.

[Snafu3721]

Depends on your view of morality, and whether you think society's standards should be considered as some sort of benchmark.

And questioning one's morality then making a tough choice doesn't automatically make you more moral than a person who faces difficulty but doesn't have to think twice.

Without going too deep philosophically;

Here is why I think GJ is a pillar of "morality" and some of the tough choices he made
1) When GJ was a young boy, with his encounter with Jebe... It just showed immense courage and righteousness, even though he put his life at stake. He helped Jebe out of kindness, and refused a gold ingot after Jebe tried to offer him one, saying "I was taught to help and not ask for anything in return"
2) GJ loves HR but when remembers he was betrothed to the Mongol Princess, he had to makde a choice between pursuing his happiness or going back on a promise. He chose to do the "right" thing. (Luckily JY made it work out in the end)
3) In ROCH when GWM attacked after GJ and YG's narrow escape. They were under immediate threat by GWM. When HR said to GJ, "am I more important, or is the country?" GJ immediately/selflessly thinks of the greater good. (which happens to conform to the cultural standard of a moral hero). In fact this event is what helps inspire YG to let go of his vengeance and try to understand what a Hero means.

The problem with YG is that he is not selfless. He wrestles with his decisions because he doesn't sacrifice like GJ, and he also often expresses his kindness in the wrong way. All this combined when viewed from society, makes him less "moral".

Put another way, we rarely see GJ in a situation where he was pressured to do the right thing when he would be judged harshly for doing it. YG, on the other hand, who spends must of the novel hated or misunderstood, ends up needing to honestly search within himself, do I do what is easy or do I do what is right, because for him the dilemma is more pronounced, and what is right is not always what is easy or popular.

We rarely see GJ pressured to do the something and then be judged harshly because he does the "right" thing.
YG is more definitely more complex. But we have establish how we define morality. Doing what YG himself believes is right, even though he struggled, doesn't make him moral.

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

1) When GJ was a young boy, with his encounter with Jebe... It just showed immense courage and righteousness, even though he put his life at stake. He helped Jebe out of kindness, and refused a gold ingot after Jebe tried to offer him one, saying "I was taught to help and not ask for anything in return"

Yet YG showed the same level of morality. As a child he tried to stop Li Mochou from killing the girls despite considerable personal risks.

2) GJ loves HR but when remembers he was betrothed to the Mongol Princess, he had to makde a choice between pursuing his happiness or going back on a promise. He chose to do the "right" thing. (Luckily JY made it work out in the end)

However can you show me a single example of YG ever breaking his word?

3) In ROCH when GWM attacked after GJ and YG's narrow escape. They were under immediate threat by GWM. When HR said to GJ, "am I more important, or is the country?" GJ immediately/selflessly thinks of the greater good. (which happens to conform to the cultural standard of a moral hero). In fact this event is what helps inspire YG to let go of his vengeance and try to understand what a Hero means.

But what do you do when society itself is being immoral. For example when Qiao Feng defied the Khitan King he was committing treason and almost committed regicide two socially immoral acts. QF like YG had enough intelligence to see beyond social morals but GJ really didn't.

The problem with YG is that he is not selfless. He wrestles with his decisions because he doesn't sacrifice like GJ, and he also often expresses his kindness in the wrong way. All this combined when viewed from society, makes him less "moral".

Not sure why you think YG is more selfish. Can you show an example of he putting himself before another. He is often tempted but when it comes down to it he never does.

We rarely see GJ pressured to do the something and then be judged harshly because he does the "right" thing.
YG is more definitely more complex. But we have establish how we define morality. Doing what YG himself believes is right, even though he struggled, doesn't make him moral.

But lets say that morality was a sport. There was two athletes, one groomed from birth to be a top sportsman and another who trained himself. Who would you say is more worth admiring.

[ChanceEncounter]

Depends on your view of morality, and whether you think society's standards should be considered as some sort of benchmark.

And questioning one's morality then making a tough choice doesn't automatically make you more moral than a person who faces difficulty but doesn't have to think twice.

Again, this is one aspect which is not at all philosophical. It's purely Pavlovian. Someone does the right thing -> are immediately rewarded for it -> they're inclined to do the right thing. You can train a pet in this manner. If they do something you like, you reward them, and they learn — by virtue of being creatures that are intelligent enough to understand single-level causality — that they should keep doing that behavior in order to get the reward.

You can argue by some definition it doesn't make you more "moral" per se, but it's inarguable that it's a harder to decision to make. Doing the right thing when you know people will judge you harshly is perhaps one of the hardest thing for people to do, and many people, both in fiction and in real life, cave at this hurdle.

We rarely see GJ pressured to do the something and then be judged harshly because he does the "right" thing.
YG is more definitely more complex. But we have establish how we define morality. Doing what YG himself believes is right, even though he struggled, doesn't make him moral.

I don't disagree, if it was as simple as "doing what he believes is right." Often with YG, what he believes is right is contrary to what society believes is right (and they judge him harshly for doing it), and frequently against self-interest, e.g. he would probably be better off not doing it, but he does it anyway because he feels it's the right thing to do.

GJ sometimes does the latter, but he rarely has to do the former, which makes it 'easier' for GJ to be moral.

Now, does that mean that GJ would choose not to do it if he would be judged harshly? Not necessarily, because of this absence of evidence (and absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence), we cannot say he would for certain. We do know that YG has proven that he would be willing to do the right thing even if his reputation and well being may be harmed by it.

So if this was a sporting analogy, imagine it's a high jump and YG has cleared a bar of difficulty 100, while GJ has cleared a bar of difficulty 90 (admittedly, GJ may have made it look easier in doing so). By this virtue, we can maybe suggest that GJ can clear the same bar of difficulty 100, and that's a fair argument given that he seems to have no trouble clearing the bar of difficulty 90.

So you could surmise that GJ could be more moral than YG. And I wouldn't disagree with you. But based on actions, has he made the harder decisions in order to stay on the path of morality? No, I don't think so.