A decade with Gu Long

[Ian Liew]

I'm on a bit of a love-hate relationship with Gu Long's writing. When he's on, he has some of the best story hooks I've ever encountered in fiction, he's got interesting characters, and really neat scenarios. When he's off, he's way overly preachy, his characters sound hollow, and his books don't have a real ending.

It verges more on hate than love at the moment, and it's because the last books I read from him are 护花铃 and the third Chu Liuxiang novel. The former feels like Gu Long didn't feel like writing it any more so he just wrapped it up in a dozen pages and called it an ending, and the latter ticked me off in a lot of ways.

I really loved Flower-Guarding Bell, but the ending, as you said, was horribly rushed. The resolution of the SNAFU which the heroes found themselves in at the end was just underwhelming, and the final fight hardly even happened. The good guys were just too strong once the Devil Island entered the fray. It was a real shame because the story was really quite gripping, and the characters had a likeability about them which isn't easy to find among Gu Long's stories. It's a story which is dying to be made into a wuxia serial with some minor adjustments at the end to at least give the bad guy a serious final fight with the protagonists. Maybe only have the Devil Island enter the scene once the bad guy has actually been defeated in a fair fight, and he's looking to exact cruel retribution by ordering a full-scale massacre only to be thwarted by the Devil Island, and then dies in a final kamikaze attack against the heroes or something. The way it is written now, though, I'd have to totally agree that it feels like he just lost interest and ended it prematurely without bothering to give the loose ends (and even the main plot) the attention they deserved.

[ToastedRossi]

I'm probably the least GL-read person to join this discussion, but GL is a rare topic here so I'll chime in

I read the beginning of one of his early novels (Poisonous Sword, Fragrant Plum). Other than some interesting feats, I found the writing comically sloppy. No character development or memorable characters, things just happen and I couldn't care less. Not sure if it gets better later, but I was too bored to continue. I imagine he tried to make it interesting but just didn't have the skill.

It's a good thing he developed his famous niche style later.

That famous style has its good and bad sides. On the good side, it's fairly unique and Gu Long seriously wrote some of the best story hooks I've ever read; right up there with Hitchcock. On the bad side, it feels like he became a lot more preachy later on, and that can be painful if you don't ascribe to his (crappy) views on women.

I really loved Flower-Guarding Bell, but the ending, as you said, was horribly rushed. The resolution of the SNAFU which the heroes found themselves in at the end was just underwhelming, and the final fight hardly even happened. The good guys were just too strong once the Devil Island entered the fray. It was a real shame because the story was really quite gripping, and the characters had a likeability about them which isn't easy to find among Gu Long's stories. It's a story which is dying to be made into a wuxia serial with some minor adjustments at the end to at least give the bad guy a serious final fight with the protagonists. Maybe only have the Devil Island enter the scene once the bad guy has actually been defeated in a fair fight, and he's looking to exact cruel retribution by ordering a full-scale massacre only to be thwarted by the Devil Island, and then dies in a final kamikaze attack against the heroes or something. The way it is written now, though, I'd have to totally agree that it feels like he just lost interest and ended it prematurely without bothering to give the loose ends (and even the main plot) the attention they deserved.

I agree with just about everything. I found that the story took a while to get rolling, but once it did, it was pretty darned good. The Devil Island part didn't feel so smooth, but it was still decent. But the ending...

"Okay, we get to see the ultimate villain for the first time!"
"Whoops, we found a cure, story's over!"

This was literally the most inadequate ending I've ever encountered. I gave up on Gu Long for three months because of this.

[Ken Cheng]

For Gu Long, I sense that a common trend is that he had great set-ups, but also often had great trouble closing the deal. His alcoholism probably had much to do with it.

As for his attitudes towards women: very typical, traditional misogyny that was more common in Gu Long's day (and country) than it is today. It continues in many parts of the world, but is slightly less prevalent now.

[ToastedRossi]

For Gu Long, I sense that a common trend is that he had great set-ups, but also often had great trouble closing the deal. His alcoholism probably had much to do with it.

I think that his money problems had more to do with it. I've heard that, back in the day, writers weren't paid by the word; they were paid by the column. And so Gu Long would make the most of it by writing really short columns. It's also harder to finish off a story properly than to just start up a new one with new ideas, so that's what he ended up doing.

As for his attitudes towards women: very typical, traditional misogyny that was more common in Gu Long's day (and country) than it is today. It continues in many parts of the world, but is slightly less prevalent now.

Gu Long's misogyny didn't feel very traditional. Instead it felt very odd; as if it stemmed from his personal issues with women. It also makes for a neat trifecta: drinking problems, money problems, and women problems.

[Ian Liew]

Gu Long's misogyny didn't feel very traditional. Instead it felt very odd; as if it stemmed from his personal issues with women. It also makes for a neat trifecta: drinking problems, money problems, and women problems.

That's partly what made Flower-Guarding Bell so nice for me - the women were quite normal and quite impressive characters too. Perhaps it was because it was one of his earlier novels and he had yet to feel the need to degrade every woman he wrote about, but Mei Yinxue (despite her obvious charms) and Ye Manqing were portrayed as very strong and resourceful characters who didn't have to rely on their looks and charms (okay, maybe Mei Yinxue did a bit, but she could have achieved what she wanted regardless, and her plot strengths revolved around her character rather than her looks). Even Jiang Qingxia, with her infidelity issues, was portrayed as someone who had a moment of weakness rather than as someone who was promiscuous by nature.

Such a great buildup and such cool character development, but the ending... the ending.... at least it wasn't a sad ending, but it felt almost Monty-Pythonish.

[Ren Wo Xing]

@ren wo xing IMHO 天涯明月刀 is one of GL's best written novels. it's at least worth the read, even if you don't end up sharing my opinion about it.

@toastedrossi i've read all 7 of the CLX novels--i think the 1st 3 are the best. the LXF books are definitely worth the read--they're not all stellar, but he and the cast of secondary characters are a lot of fun to become familiar with. and the series is less preachy overall than some of GL's other works. i also despise DQJKWQJ.

I was the person who translated TYMYD, so I certainly agree! I just wanted to hear Athena's opinion

[mawguy]

I was the person who translated TYMYD, so I certainly agree! I just wanted to hear Athena's opinion

oh, i beg your pardon--i didn't realize! in that case, thank you so much for sharing TYMYD with a wider audience!

[CC]

oh, i beg your pardon--i didn't realize! in that case, thank you so much for sharing TYMYD with a wider audience!

TYMYD was unique in that it combined some of the later GL philosophical style with some detailed fights.

[kidd]

Talking about misogyny, I don't find Gu Long's treatment of female characters as bad as many find it to be. He wrote some awful women, but also some likeable women. And it was in Gu Long's novels that I found unattractive female characters to be loved for their personality/goodness.

[wkeej]

Based on the TV series, I find that Gu Long's stories tend to end on a sadder note compared to Jin Yong.

[mawguy]

Talking about misogyny, I don't find Gu Long's treatment of female characters as bad as many find it to be. He wrote some awful women, but also some likeable women. And it was in Gu Long's novels that I found unattractive female characters to be loved for their personality/goodness.

hmmm... that's true, kidd! thinking of other writers (e.g., JY), the unattractive females were also the evil ones. and yes, despite GL's misogyny, his female characters, when you remove the misogyny lens of the author, aren't all bad. and isn't it more telling of the author than the characters that some of his most beautiful women are also the most immoral?

[ToastedRossi]

Talking about misogyny, I don't find Gu Long's treatment of female characters as bad as many find it to be. He wrote some awful women, but also some likeable women. And it was in Gu Long's novels that I found unattractive female characters to be loved for their personality/goodness.

I've only read a limited number of Gu Long novels, but of what I've read I can't say that the good balances the bad. The bigger problem though is that the narration can be even worse than the characterization.

Based on the TV series, I find that Gu Long's stories tend to end on a sadder note compared to Jin Yong.

I'd take Gu Long adaptations with a big grain of salt. I've heard that some of the '70s TVB shows were pretty close to the original, but everything else takes major liberties.

[Ken Cheng]

I'd take Gu Long adaptations with a big grain of salt. I've heard that some of the '70s TVB shows were pretty close to the original, but everything else takes major liberties.

The television writers almost had to do that, given that so many of Gu Long's plots had desultory and anticlimactic ends that made for poor novel endings and would have been catastrophic TV endings.

That said, LUK SIU FUNG '76 (TVB) is almost a model of novel accuracy. The first few LSF stories were among the few occasions when Gu Long had his crap together from more or less start to finish.

[kidd]

and isn't it more telling of the author than the characters that some of his most beautiful women are also the most immoral?

Hmm. I don't know about that. I'm reading 'Xiao 11 Lang' now and the most beautiful woman in the book is the super-duper beautiful Shen Bi Jun who is a pretty conservative woman.

Maybe Gu Long met many femme fatales in his womanising days.

I think in Gu Long's mind, most men are weak against a beautiful woman and a beautiful female form. So, intelligent and beautiful women will know the strength in their beauty and use it for their advantage.

[kidd]

I've only read a limited number of Gu Long novels, but of what I've read I can't say that the good balances the bad. The bigger problem though is that the narration can be even worse than the characterization.

I have to agree with that. Some of the comments about women made by GL in his books are cringe-worthy.

[mawguy]

Hmm. I don't know about that. I'm reading 'Xiao 11 Lang' now and the most beautiful woman in the book is the super-duper beautiful Shen Bi Jun who is a pretty conservative woman.

Maybe Gu Long met many femme fatales in his womanising days.

I think in Gu Long's mind, most men are weak against a beautiful woman and a beautiful female form. So, intelligent and beautiful women will know the strength in their beauty and use it for their advantage.

SBJ is definitely the most notable exception! and yes, i think GL has failed spectacularly at least once in his life against "the fair sex", hence the misogyny. do we know if he grew up with a dominating female figure, like a mother or grandmother?

[whiteskwirl]

SBJ is definitely the most notable exception! and yes, i think GL has failed spectacularly at least once in his life against "the fair sex", hence the misogyny. do we know if he grew up with a dominating female figure, like a mother or grandmother?

His parents were divorced when he was a kid, his mother remarried and his father ran off, and he ended up living with friends most of the time. So there's no coincidence his work emphasizes brotherhood and friendship more than family.

[ToastedRossi]

The television actors almost had to do that, given that so many of Gu Long's plots had desultory and anticlimactic ends that made for poor novel endings and would have been catastrophic TV endings.

There's that and there's also the novels not being condusive to being filmed as written. If I recall correctly, there's things like Shi Guanyin being naked during her fight against Chu Liuxiang.

That said, LUK SIU FUNG '76 (TVB) is almost a model of novel accuracy. The first few LSF stories were among the few occasions when Gu Long had his crap together from more or less start to finish.

I've never watched this show so I learned about this on this very forum. In fact, I'm pretty sure it was from you!

[mawguy]

His parents were divorced when he was a kid, his mother remarried and his father ran off, and he ended up living with friends most of the time. So there's no coincidence his work emphasizes brotherhood and friendship more than family.

ah yes, that definitely explains a lot of his philosophy!

[Dirt]

Gu Long was a massive alcoholic. I wouldn't be surprised if he either wrote some of his stories while drunk or someone had to finish it for him to meet deadlines because he couldn't finish it himself.