9 Yum White Bone Claws vs. 1 Yeung Finger Technique

[Ken Cheng]

OK...you all know the drill from this thread and this thread.

If we have two fighters who have identical talents, experience, and inner power level, but one has ONLY 9 Yum White Bone Claws and the other has ONLY 1 Yeung Finger Technique as external fighting skills, to which fighter would you grant the advantage in one-on-one fair combat against each other?

Essentially, both 9 Yum White Bone Claws and 1 Yeung Finger Technique are *finger*-based techniques (though obviously, the claws also involve the palm, wrist, and other parts of the hand beyond the fingers). Which skill, however, provides the fingers with more penetrating power? We know that the 9 Yum White Bone Claws enable the fingers to tear through flesh and bone quite easily, and 1 Yeung Finger Technique enables people to write on stone with their fingers.

[tape]

The narrative seems to be that the claws would be better if the fighters are weaker, but as you approach the better fighters Yiyangzhi would be better, so it depends on the skill level of the fighters.

[ToastedRossi]

There's only one top-notch 9-Yin Claws user in all of Jin Yong's books (the Yellow Lady), but I'd still give penetration to the Claws. The biggest telling factor is that the Claws seemed to be designed for ripping through flesh and bone whereas the 1-Yang Finger is meant to attack acupoints.

In terms of actual skills, it's pretty clear that the 9-Yin Claws are better for a beginner since they seem to be easy to master and are instantly deadly even when fighting against superior opponents. The difference between a intermediate and master 1-Yang user is pretty huge though (see Wu Santong), so I imagine that it will win out at higher levels.

[Snafu3721]

The narrative seems to be that the claws would be better if the fighters are weaker, but as you approach the better fighters Yiyangzhi would be better, so it depends on the skill level of the fighters.

Actually, this isn't really specific to 9-yin bone claws where it only works well on weaker fighters.
Any Greats level technique, once learned by a sub-great, tended to allow that user to beat most of Wulin (who were in the league of "weaker" opponents being referred to).

GJ with Dragon palms can beat all the "weaker" fighters. 1-Deng's students were around LMC level which was stronger than rest of Wulin.

It just depends if bones claws counts as a Greats lvl technique. My personal problem with classifying bone claw as a Greats technique means that we'd have to count most of the techniques like demon subduing palm as Greats lvl. Thus we go back into the whole how great was the 9-yin argument considering it's an entire book full of Greats lvl techniques? How much does it really benefit a Great?!?, etc...

So in order to consolidate this in my own mind, I had always thought of the external techniques in 9-yin to be slightly sub-Great. Like the XM elder Palms or Iron Palms. It's as good as it gets, but just not Greats lvl elite.

So going back to the OP
1-Yang finger. Because I think 9-yin is still slightly sub-Greats

[a_tumiwa]

There's only one top-notch 9-Yin Claws user in all of Jin Yong's books (the Yellow Lady), but I'd still give penetration to the Claws. The biggest telling factor is that the Claws seemed to be designed for ripping through flesh and bone whereas the 1-Yang Finger is meant to attack acupoints.

In terms of actual skills, it's pretty clear that the 9-Yin Claws are better for a beginner since they seem to be easy to master and are instantly deadly even when fighting against superior opponents. The difference between a intermediate and master 1-Yang user is pretty huge though (see Wu Santong), so I imagine that it will win out at higher levels.

so the yellow maiden is said to use the orthodox version, did it mean it was the original version used by mei chaofeng, thus stronger than revamped version of huang rong used by ZZR?

[tape]

Actually, this isn't really specific to 9-yin bone claws where it only works well on weaker fighters.
Any Greats level technique, once learned by a sub-great, tended to allow that user to beat most of Wulin (who were in the league of "weaker" opponents being referred to).

GJ with Dragon palms can beat all the "weaker" fighters. 1-Deng's students were around LMC level which was stronger than rest of Wulin.

It just depends if bones claws counts as a Greats lvl technique. My personal problem with classifying bone claw as a Greats technique means that we'd have to count most of the techniques like demon subduing palm as Greats lvl. Thus we go back into the whole how great was the 9-yin argument considering it's an entire book full of Greats lvl techniques? How much does it really benefit a Great?!?, etc...

So in order to consolidate this in my own mind, I had always thought of the external techniques in 9-yin to be slightly sub-Great. Like the XM elder Palms or Iron Palms. It's as good as it gets, but just not Greats lvl elite.

So going back to the OP
1-Yang finger. Because I think 9-yin is still slightly sub-Greats

Of the original Greats, because of the appearance and history in DGSD, I always considered 1 Yang Finger and Dragon Palms to be slightly above any individual skill of Huang Yaoshi or Ouyang Feng. They were geniuses and able to match the other two with ingenuity and a lot of different styles/arts, but I'm giving the nod to the centuries old and famous Dragon Palm and 1 Yang Finger to be slightly stronger.

That said, even when Huang Yaoshi heard Yang Guo roar and thought his inner strength was very high, he still said that Yang Guo would need 3 years to match Li Mochou even with his Divine Finger Snap (which we commonly classify as a Great level art) and Jade Flute Swordplay. This indicates not all great or close to great level arts will give an immediate power boost before slowing down. I don't get much of an indication that Yang Guo improved at all from those two arts really, as the only time I remember him using it was to fake the marriage to the Wu brothers.

Personally for me it would be something like Dragon Palm = 1 Yang Finger > Toad Stance = Divine Finger Snap >>> than any individual art in the 9 Yin.


On a side note, I think the 9 Yin as shown in HSDS is a very, very strong technique. It relies on deception and mystery as part of it's power, but that IS part of martial arts and combat ability, and I generally disagree with the idea that Zhou Ziruo should be ranked lower/equal to the Wudang heroes because her "real" martial arts abilities are lower. I think she should be rated slightly higher than them! Deception and ability to mask your true moves is part of what makes a fighter, as we know Huang Yaoshi incorporates that into his martial arts and to an extant Dog Beating Stick does as well.

Also, the whole world saw Song Qingshu use the claws three times to kill three people, and had time to discuss it, and still weren't able to defeat him until his inexperience showed. With ZZR, even after they witnessed her claws, the two heroes of Wudang would still have lost to her in a fair fight, and Fan Yao who is a martial arts encyclopedia STILL had to ask Wuji for pointers even after watching on the sidelines for a few fights (which is a crazy advantage -- most people are not forced to reveal their skills in front of the world multiple times). After a point, it's a bit unfair to give deceptive and tricky martial arts a negative connotation and accept that they are stronger practically even if not theoretically. It's almost like the Huashan Internal Sect versus the Sword Sect

[Snafu3721]

@Tape

Regarding what you mentioned with HYS and teaching YG Divine Finger snap--
That's a very interesting point that I remember bothered me long ago! Why didn't YG focus on Finger Snap and achieve the same results as GJ?? Or was LMC really that powerful that it would still take 3 years? Given that LMC was on par with QCJ, this can make sense. Because in LOCH, GJ with full 18 palms and quite a bit of practice is roughly on par with OYK, who is roughly on par with QCJ.

As for the rest of the points you mentioned, I think they make a lot of sense. I felt that 9-yin techniques are sub-Elite, but not by much; like only a half tier lower. Which still can explain why so many seasoned veterans had a hard time dealing with the bone claws. And also considering that the bone claws version that ZZR learned was a shortcut version, it may have also given some additional initial boost to prowess in a quick time as it was designed to do so.

Another analysis to look at:
Let's say that ZZR had learned any other 9-yin technique, would HSDS sub-Greats have problems with any of them? I think they would, so I don't believe bone claw is unique. It was just faster to learn because of the shortcut version.

[tape]

@Tape

Regarding what you mentioned with HYS and teaching YG Divine Finger snap--
That's a very interesting point that I remember bothered me long ago! Why didn't YG focus on Finger Snap and achieve the same results as GJ?? Or was LMC really that powerful that it would still take 3 years? Given that LMC was on par with QCJ, this can make sense. Because in LOCH, GJ with full 18 palms and quite a bit of practice is roughly on par with OYK, who is roughly on par with QCJ.

The explanation that makes the most sense to me is that Dragon Palms is just a better martial art overall. It gives a huge boost initially that the Finger Snap doesn't really give, it scales easier, and at the end is just as powerful as the Finger Snap if not more. The Dragon Palms are a legendary martial art that spans across novels, and it makes sense that it is superior in a few ways that even geniuses like Huang Yaoshi and Ouyang Feng can't replicate technically even if they are on par on a personal level.

[tape]

As for the rest of the points you mentioned, I think they make a lot of sense. I felt that 9-yin techniques are sub-Elite, but not by much; like only a half tier lower. Which still can explain why so many seasoned veterans had a hard time dealing with the bone claws. And also considering that the bone claws version that ZZR learned was a shortcut version, it may have also given some additional initial boost to prowess in a quick time as it was designed to do so.

Another analysis to look at:
Let's say that ZZR had learned any other 9-yin technique, would HSDS sub-Greats have problems with any of them? I think they would, so I don't believe bone claw is unique. It was just faster to learn because of the shortcut version.

Yeah, I think by most accounts it indicates the 9 Yin arts are pretty close to the Great level arts, but the fact that most people who had access to 9 Yin only supplemented their original arts with 9 Yin rather than abandoning their original techniques makes me think it's not really any better.

ZBT used the Demon Subduing Fist against GWM with his L/R technique, Qigong taught Guo Jing and Huang Rong 9 Yin arts while they were stuck on the island, and a few other instances pop up where they use 9 Yin techniques, but ultimately they don't really use them.

One thing that interests me though is that the 9 Yin contains advanced theories that are probably more useful than any particular technique that is recorded. Guo Jing upon reading it was immediately able to see theoretical flaws in Hong Qigong and Ouyang Feng, and Wang Chongyang used it to create a counter to Lin Chaoying's martial arts.