Flaming Sabre

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

How powerful was Jiumozhi's signature skill?

The only time we really see this skill shine was in Jiumozhi's battle against the six Heaven Dragon Temple elders, where he was able, at least for a time to repel the supposedly unstoppable Six Meridian Swords.

There has been endless debates on how powerful Jiumozhi was and while he was undoubtedly a talented Martial Artist, much of his skills were stolen from other people. Only the Flaming Sabre can be called his native art.

Could the Flaming Sabre had withstood the 28 Dragon Palm?
How would it fare against Star-shifting Technique?
Would Flaming Sabre had been considered good enough to be included in the Care-free Sects library?

[ToastedRossi]

The Six Meridian Swords would have been unstoppable if they were all wielded by a single user. The version used at the Heaven Dragon Temple was a half assed one employed by six different people and was much weaker than the real thing would have been.

I wouldn't call the Sabre Jiumozhi's signature skill though. His signature was to be able to synthesize a ton of incompatible skills and employ them at a very high level. Jiumozhi is actually a really impressive character who seems to get less than his due.

Could the Flaming Sabre had withstood the 28 Dragon Palm?
How would it fare against Star-shifting Technique?
Would Flaming Sabre had been considered good enough to be included in the Care-free Sects library?

Why not? The 1-Yang Finger would have been a match for the Dragon Palms, and the Heaven Dragon monks never even considered using it against Jiumozhi.

Again, why not? The Star-shifting Technique isn't some sort of unbeatable force so another top-notch skill should be a match for it. The Flaming Sabre should qualify as such so it shouldn't be a problem.

The library had a lot of lesser skills as well, so quality wouldn't even be an issue.

[CC]

The Six Meridian Swords would have been unstoppable if they were all wielded by a single user. The version used at the Heaven Dragon Temple was a half assed one employed by six different people and was much weaker than the real thing would have been.

I never really found this part to make sense even if that's what JY wrote.

Even DY with his massive internal could only shoot out 1 sword at a time and must switch swords exclusively.

6 monks would mean 6 different swords attacking at the same time. That really shouldn't be weaker than 1 guy switching between 6 swords one at a time.

[ToastedRossi]

I never really found this part to make sense even if that's what JY wrote.

Even DY with his massive internal could only shoot out 1 sword at a time and must switch swords exclusively.

6 monks would mean 6 different swords attacking at the same time. That really shouldn't be weaker than 1 guy switching between 6 swords one at a time.

I figure that there are two factors going on. The first is that the monks don't have enough internal strength to project the sword qi. The second is that you probably have to master all six swords before you can use them properly. Couple these problems with the fact that the monks just learned the swords and it's no surprise that they're not all that strong. It should be noted though that the monks thought that their newly acquired skills are still superior to using 1-Yang Finger.

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

I never really found this part to make sense even if that's what JY wrote.

Even DY with his massive internal could only shoot out 1 sword at a time and must switch swords exclusively.

6 monks would mean 6 different swords attacking at the same time. That really shouldn't be weaker than 1 guy switching between 6 swords one at a time.

I am with you on this one. Given the limited amount of Qi DY had absorbed at the time, each one of the six elders should have had at least comparable power level to him. How he can master six swords when each of them could not properly master one is a major plot hole.

Added to that, the foundation for six meridian sword is 1-yang finger. That DY who has absolutely no background in 1-yang could suddenly jump to using six meridian sword is ridiculous.

[ToastedRossi]

I am with you on this one. Given the limited amount of Qi DY had absorbed at the time, each one of the six elders should have had at least comparable power level to him. How he can master six swords when each of them could not properly master one is a major plot hole.

Added to that, the foundation for six meridian sword is 1-yang finger. That DY who has absolutely no background in 1-yang could suddenly jump to using six meridian sword is ridiculous.

It's a combination of Duan Yu's inner strength being a lot stronger than any of the monks and synergy with all the inner energies in his body. And Duan Yu definitely did not master the swords until the very end of the book.

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

It's a combination of Duan Yu's inner strength being a lot stronger than any of the monks and synergy with all the inner energies in his body. And Duan Yu definitely did not master the swords until the very end of the book.

I seriously doubt DY power was greater than the elders. He had a absorbed a few flunkies, some power from the four evils and some from Reverend Huangmei. Of them all the First Evil and Reverend Huangmei were the most powerful, however he only absorbed a very limited amount from those two as seen in the fact they had little ill effect and recovered relatively quickly.

How can DY's patchwork of Qi be compared to decades of practice by five masters, each one at least the equal of the First Evil and Reverend Huangmei?

[Ian Liew]

From what I understood the six monks had problems because LMSJ was never designed as a formation, but as an art to be used by a single person. When each monk only knows how to use a single finger art, they cannot switch sword according to the need (and I believe each meridian sword had a different use). If JMZ were to just concentrate on a single monk they just wouldn't be able to hold out because the other five wouldn't be able to cover the first one adequately (which they would be able to if LMSJ was a proper formation).

[CC]

From what I understood the six monks had problems because LMSJ was never designed as a formation, but as an art to be used by a single person. When each monk only knows how to use a single finger art, they cannot switch sword according to the need (and I believe each meridian sword had a different use). If JMZ were to just concentrate on a single monk they just wouldn't be able to hold out because the other five wouldn't be able to cover the first one adequately (which they would be able to if LMSJ was a proper formation).

Its still mind boggling that 6 separate swords attacking at the same time is inferior to 1 sword alternating between 6.

[ToastedRossi]

Its still mind boggling that 6 separate swords attacking at the same time is inferior to 1 sword alternating between 6.

The idea is that only knowing one of the six swords is very incomplete. It's like how someone on a bicycle is a lot faster than multiple people on unicycles.

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

The idea is that only knowing one of the six swords is very incomplete. It's like how someone on a bicycle is a lot faster than multiple people on unicycles.

The problem with this theory is that it relies on the idea that Six Meridian Swords are interlocking, i.e. one most have all the component parts fit together before it works. But this is clearly not the case otherwise the six elders would not have been able to use it at all, let alone fight a duel with it.

[PJ]

I seriously doubt DY power was greater than the elders.

You shouldn't. He already had more IE than XF when they met.

As for his leechees, here's what the novel says (quoting this post):

Duan Yu first drained all of the internal energy of seven disciples of Mt. Wuliang’s Sword sect, then absorbed some of the energy of masters such as Duan Yanqing, the Yellow Browed Monk, Ye Erniang, the Divine Crocodile, Yun Zhonghe, Zhong Wanchou, and Cui Baiquan. This day, he gained a small portion of the internal energy of Emperor Baoding, Benguan, Benxiang, Benyin, and Bencan, five master martial artists of the Duan family.

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

You shouldn't. He already had more IE than XF when they met.

As for his leechees, here's what the novel says (quoting this post):

Duan Yu first drained all of the internal energy of seven disciples of Mt. Wuliang’s Sword sect, then absorbed some of the energy of masters such as Duan Yanqing, the Yellow Browed Monk, Ye Erniang, the Divine Crocodile, Yun Zhonghe, Zhong Wanchou, and Cui Baiquan. This day, he gained a small portion of the internal energy of Emperor Baoding, Benguan, Benxiang, Benyin, and Bencan, five master martial artists of the Duan family.

No disrespect but all your quote did was expand on my previous point and does not disprove it. Naming the flunkies as the Wuilang disciples does not make then any stronger. Any one of the Duan family's four main guards could plough their way through dozens of them. As I stated before the level of energy absorbed from the Four Evils and Reverend Huangmei could not have been that much as none of them had any lasting ill effects or needed much time to recovery. As for the 4 elders and Emperor Baoding, we must remember that Kurong stopped them for fear of significantly reducing their power and not being able to learn the six meridian swords(SMS). The fact that they could learn the SMS shows that the amount DY absorbed was insignificant.

DY's power at this time was like mixing a lot of poor quality metals with small amounts of good quality metal. You may have more material but that does not make it usable material. In comparison each one of Heaven Dragon temples elders had at least 40-50 years worth of good quality Qi.

[Stance]

If you read the link it says the following:

"Duan Yu first drained all of the internal energy of seven disciples of Mt. Wuliang’s Sword sect, then absorbed some of the energy of masters such as Duan Yanqing, the Yellow Browed Monk, Ye Erniang, the Divine Crocodile, Yun Zhonghe, Zhong Wanchou, and Cui Baiquan. This day, he gained a small portion of the internal energy of Emperor Baoding, Benguan, Benxiang, Benyin, and Bencan, five master martial artists of the Duan family. His internal energy was now incomparably deep and profound; the phrase, ‘Shocking the ancients and overawing contemporaries’ could be used to describe it. He had no equal in the entire world. Now, under his uncle’s instructions, he began to store away this powerful internal energy within his organs, and his entire body began to feel more and more comfortable. His entire body felt light and carefree, as though he was about to fly away into the sky."

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

If you read the link it says the following:

"Duan Yu first drained all of the internal energy of seven disciples of Mt. Wuliang’s Sword sect, then absorbed some of the energy of masters such as Duan Yanqing, the Yellow Browed Monk, Ye Erniang, the Divine Crocodile, Yun Zhonghe, Zhong Wanchou, and Cui Baiquan. This day, he gained a small portion of the internal energy of Emperor Baoding, Benguan, Benxiang, Benyin, and Bencan, five master martial artists of the Duan family. His internal energy was now incomparably deep and profound; the phrase, ‘Shocking the ancients and overawing contemporaries’ could be used to describe it. He had no equal in the entire world. Now, under his uncle’s instructions, he began to store away this powerful internal energy within his organs, and his entire body began to feel more and more comfortable. His entire body felt light and carefree, as though he was about to fly away into the sky."

I guess my resistance to this is that JY seems to be defying the internal logic of his own novel. How can cultivating a good Martial Arts for 40-50 years produce less successful results than a hotch-potch mixture of poor, middling and good quality Qi? It could be that as a student of Martial Arts I find it very frustrating that people who have dedicated years to studying the Art can be suddenly surpassed by someone using what is essentially a cheat code. This a cliche of the genre I have never been satisfied with.

[CC]

I guess my resistance to this is that JY seems to be defying the internal logic of his own novel. How can cultivating a good Martial Arts for 40-50 years produce less successful results than a hotch-potch mixture of poor, middling and good quality Qi? It could be that as a student of Martial Arts I find it very frustrating that people who have dedicated years to studying the Art can be suddenly surpassed by someone using what is essentially a cheat code. This a cliche of the genre I have never been satisfied with.

But with the exception of Xiao Feng, every other main character from DGSD to SOD to OTG gets that super lucky break right? Even GJ who 'slowly' developed had some sort of cheat code compared to the Greats.

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

But with the exception of Xiao Feng, every other main character from DGSD to SOD to OTG gets that super lucky break right? Even GJ who 'slowly' developed had some sort of cheat code compared to the Greats.

True, which is probably why I like Gu Long's characters more than JY's.

[EdenResident]

As much as I like DGSD for its story arcs and tapestry of interesting characters, I just can't accept the level of bullshit when it comes to how the two main characters, Duan Yu and Xu Zhu, get their internal power. I know Jin Yong's main characters always get some kind of lucky breaks and power boost, but most of them still have to practice the arts.

ZWJ spent 5 years practicing Jiu Yang by himself in the cave, then got one more break with the bag. Yang Guo got the snake bladders but he still had to practice continuously for almost 16 years in order to attain Great-level internals. LHC and RWX were both miserable at times from dealing with foreign internals in their bodies.

And then you have Duan Yu, who suffered nothing from the mediocre internals that he leeched, which add up like ****ing money! The internals of a 5th rate martial art practitioner count the same as those of a 1st tier master! How bullshit is that? I mean, why doesn't Duan Yu just order the whole Dali to practice internals and then he goes around collecting them like taxes? Dali must have at least 1 million people right? If 1/1000 of those would practice for 1 year and Duan Yu would leech from them, then BAM!!! Instant 1000 years of internal cultivation! Take that Sweeper Monk!

Xu Zhu's achievement is just as big a pile of bullshit. The guy got 300 years worth of highest quality internals without lifting a ****ing finger. I'm surprised Xu Zhu didn't spontaneously combust from so much bullshit!! And if donating internals is such a piece of cake, why don't more of Xiao Yao near-death masters just pass down internals like ****ing inheritance?

[Ken Cheng]

As much as I like DGSD for its story arcs and tapestry of interesting characters, I just can't accept the level of bullshit when it comes to how the two main characters, Duan Yu and Xu Zhu, get their internal power. I know Jin Yong's main characters always get some kind of lucky breaks and power boost, but most of them still have to practice the arts.

ZWJ spent 5 years practicing Jiu Yang by himself in the cave, then got one more break with the bag. Yang Guo got the snake bladders but he still had to practice continuously for almost 16 years in order to attain Great-level internals. LHC and RWX were both miserable at times from dealing with foreign internals in their bodies.

And then you have Duan Yu, who suffered nothing from the mediocre internals that he leeched, which add up like ****ing money! The internals of a 5th rate martial art practitioner count the same as those of a 1st tier master! How bullshit is that? I mean, why doesn't Duan Yu just order the whole Dali to practice internals and then he goes around collecting them like taxes? Dali must have at least 1 million people right? If 1/1000 of those would practice for 1 year and Duan Yu would leech from them, then BAM!!! Instant 1000 years of internal cultivation! Take that Sweeper Monk!

It honestly got comical with those two. Maybe it was meant to be comical.

[ToastedRossi]

But with the exception of Xiao Feng, every other main character from DGSD to SOD to OTG gets that super lucky break right? Even GJ who 'slowly' developed had some sort of cheat code compared to the Greats.

It's almost as if martial arts isn't the main point of Jin Yong's stories. Case in point: how many proper fights did Di Yun get into after fully developing his skills? Zero.

As much as I like DGSD for its story arcs and tapestry of interesting characters, I just can't accept the level of bullshit when it comes to how the two main characters, Duan Yu and Xu Zhu, get their internal power. I know Jin Yong's main characters always get some kind of lucky breaks and power boost, but most of them still have to practice the arts.

That's sort of the whole point of the book. You can see it even more clearly in how Duan Yu has everything that Murong Fu wanted and how the two respond to power.