A Hero Born by Jin Yong

[SlowRain]

I just purchased the new English translation of A Hero Born (Legends of the Condor Heroes). I've also read the Olivia Mok translation of Fox Volant of the Snowy Mountain.

I have a quick question about 'jianghu' and 'wulin'. Am I correct in assuming the 'wulin' is a loose association of martial arts schools, and 'jianghu' is a collective term for outlaws?

[CC]

I just purchased the new English translation of A Hero Born (Legends of the Condor Heroes). I've also read the Olivia Mok translation of Fox Volant of the Snowy Mountain.

I have a quick question about 'jianghu' and 'wulin'. Am I correct in assuming the 'wulin' is a loose association of martial arts schools, and 'jianghu' is a collective term for outlaws?

Wulin refers to the fraternity of martial arts practitioners and Jianghu is a slightly wider term to refer to the adventuring (I cant think of a better term, it basically includes all your bandits, thieves, fighters, ironsmithetc.) world.

[SlowRain]

The jianghu are still relatively good people, aren't they? They're just defiant towards the corrupt government, or are they just like most criminals today?

[WuxiaMaster]

I think CC explaination is the closest I can think of. The terms doesn't really have to do with good/bad people.

Jianghu - The martial arts world in its entirety. Good/evil sects, outlaws and bandits all inclusive.
Wulin - Usually use to reference the more "established/formalized" (for lack of better term) of the martial arts world.

Sometimes they can be used interchangebly.

e.g. In the case of 江湖人士 (people of jianghu) and 武林人士 (people of wulin). I can't think of any difference between these 2.

But other times, such as 'grand martial arts meet', it would be call 武林大会 (wulin dahui). 江湖大会 (jianghu dahui) would sound weird.

[Ken Cheng]

Well, "gong wu" ("jianghu") includes many people who have no association with martial arts; they are, for the lack of a better term, tradesmen.

"Wulin," on the other hand, specifically refers to the community of martial arts practitioners. Wulin is a part of the greater gong wu.

[SlowRain]

The wulin seem pretty straightforward and easy enough to understand. I'm trying to think of something comparable to the jianghu in Western literature or history. They seem comparable to Robin Hood and those who assisted him or the League of the Scarlet Pimpernel, just larger and not organized under one leader. They also seem comparable to the Underground Railroad. However, they seem less structured and less violent than the mafia. Can I call them a de-centralized secret society of outlaws?

[Snafu3721]

Jianghu in a broader sense refers to any brotherhood, lifestyle, or livelihood.

Using a modern day example:
If you work in Tech. Then your "jianghu" encompasses all facets of the tech industry. All people who work in/related to Tech industry would be "Jianghu people". And any of the usual tech-centric mores and memes would apply to you. There would be both spoken and unspoken Tech rules. One of the ones I'm familiar with is poaching engineers from other tech companies (this was something that was very sensitive between Google and Yahoo back in the day). This would be a "jianghu" rule between two sects... one sect being Google and the other sect being Yahoo. When you meet others in the industry, you greet them "Jianghu" style. You speak the Tech jargon and are caught up with the modern affairs of the tech industry.

Wulin is a subset and type of Jianghu IMO. It is the martial world, a pugilist collection of folks that follow their "jianghu" rules of the Martial ways. Using my example above-- the Tech industry is analogous to Wulin; while The Banking Indsutry would be another type/subset of Jianghu

[SlowRain]

Thanks.

Am I getting too hung up on the outlaw element? Or are the jianghu in opposition to the government?

[Snafu3721]

yeah, don't focus on the outlaw part.
Jianghu is not opposed to the government by nature.

In fact, as you read more wuxia novels, many people of Jianghu support gov't.
Once you get to Book and the Sword or the Deer and Cauldron, there is a LOT of political elements.

[WuxiaMaster]

I thought of an analogy:

Jianghu = All the continents (America, Asia, Europe, Antartica, etc...)
Wulin = All the countries of the world (US, UK, China, India, etc...)

[SlowRain]

I think I'm okay with the relationship of the wulin within the jianghu, I was just assuming the jianghu were always outlaws.

It's going to be hard to find other Jin Yong novels in English, though. Book 2 of this series comes out next year, and I'm assuming book 3 in 2020, and book 4 in 2021. If these are successful, the series will continue with Return of the Condor Heroes.

I think I did try reading The Deer and the Cauldron, but found the writing a bit frustrating. I may have to give it another try.

[Snafu3721]

I think I'm okay with the relationship of the wulin within the jianghu, I was just assuming the jianghu were always outlaws.

It's going to be hard to find other Jin Yong novels in English, though. Book 2 of this series comes out next year, and I'm assuming book 3 in 2020, and book 4 in 2021. If these are successful, the series will continue with Return of the Condor Heroes.

I think I did try reading The Deer and the Cauldron, but found the writing a bit frustrating. I may have to give it another try.

We have a very good translation thread that the forum members contribute to for most of JY and some of GL's works.
Also there are few good websites that have many of the novels already translated.

In my opinion, I prefer the fan translations much more than the official ones. It's like reading manga or watching anime, the fan translations add an extra layer that gives you a better picture.