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Thread: The various Ming revivalist factions in DOMD: did anyone have a legit claim?

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default The various Ming revivalist factions in DOMD: did anyone have a legit claim?

    One of the political themes of DOMD was how the Ming Dynasty collapsed in large part due to internal conflict among its leadership. Indeed, just looking at all the different factions of the former Ming Dynasty gives you an idea of the main reason they never had much of a realistic chance of overthrowing the Qing Dynasty and restoring the Ming:

    Chan Gun Nam and the Heaven and Earth Society

    Cheng Hak Song and his teacher, Fung Sek Fan

    The House of Muk faction

    The House of Wong faction

    Lee Tze Sing

    Ng 3 Gwai (technically not a Ming revivalist, but also a former associate of the Ming military/government who had his own reasons for wanting to overthrow the Qing Dynasty)

    The One-Armed Nun

    The Gui Family

    Which of these entities, if any, had the most legitimate claim to restoring the Ming Dynasty? Was there something deeper than thirst for power, greed, and personal animosity to their being unable to all get on the same page?

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    Senior Member Ian Liew's Avatar
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    Li Zicheng never wanted to revive the Ming Dynasty - if anything, he was the one mainly responsible for the fall of the Ming with his rebellion and attack on Beijing.

    I think their inability to work together (disregarding Li and Wu who were both enemies of the Ming themselves) stemmed from the lack of a true figurehead which they would all identify with. All the Ming princes were dead, and all parties were just descendants of various high-ranking officials of the Ming. Jiunan was the only one who bore the surname "Zhu" but as a girl (and a nun at that) was never going to be a candidate as Emperor. There were remnants of the Zhu family around (Yu Ruyi's grandparents or parents must have been around at this time for her to carry the surname "Zhu" in Book and Sword), but as you say, restoring the Ming was never going to be a realistic option, and they were just resisting for the sake of it.

    If you think they were hopeless, the Red Flowers would seem even more hopeless half a century or so later...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Liew View Post
    All the Ming princes were dead, and all parties were just descendants of various high-ranking officials of the Ming. Jiunan was the only one who bore the surname "Zhu" but as a girl (and a nun at that) was never going to be a candidate as Emperor. There were remnants of the Zhu family around (Yu Ruyi's grandparents or parents must have been around at this time for her to carry the surname "Zhu" in Book and Sword), but as you say, restoring the Ming was never going to be a realistic option, and they were just resisting for the sake of it..
    The Heaven-Earth society supported a descendent of the Longwu 'emperor', while the Mu palace supported a descendent of the Yongli 'emperor'. Both were alive at the time, and they were legitimate members of the Zhu royal family, not just high-ranking officials. As Li Xihua pointed out though, even if they succeeded in overthrowing the Qing, it is unlikely that they would manage to become emperor simply by virtue of having the surname 'Zhu' - they must have earned it somehow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Kwok View Post
    The Heaven-Earth society supported a descendent of the Longwu 'emperor', while the Mu palace supported a descendent of the Yongli 'emperor'. Both were alive at the time, and they were legitimate members of the Zhu royal family, not just high-ranking officials. As Li Xihua pointed out though, even if they succeeded in overthrowing the Qing, it is unlikely that they would manage to become emperor simply by virtue of having the surname 'Zhu' - they must have earned it somehow.
    so between these longwu and yongli, which one is a direct descendant of chongzhen emperor?

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    Senior Member Ian Liew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Kwok View Post
    The Heaven-Earth society supported a descendent of the Longwu 'emperor', while the Mu palace supported a descendent of the Yongli 'emperor'. Both were alive at the time, and they were legitimate members of the Zhu royal family, not just high-ranking officials. As Li Xihua pointed out though, even if they succeeded in overthrowing the Qing, it is unlikely that they would manage to become emperor simply by virtue of having the surname 'Zhu' - they must have earned it somehow.
    I thought the Taiwanese faction were descendants of the Ming general Zheng Chenggong, which was why they were called the "Zheng palace"? So the Zheng family actually had a little Zhu descendant hidden away as a presumably potential puppet Emperor in the future? Why would Chen Zhennan pay so much respect to the Zhengs, then, by the way, if they were just fellow subjects?

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    Senior Member Mandred Skavenslayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Liew View Post
    I thought the Taiwanese faction were descendants of the Ming general Zheng Chenggong, which was why they were called the "Zheng palace"? So the Zheng family actually had a little Zhu descendant hidden away as a presumably potential puppet Emperor in the future? Why would Chen Zhennan pay so much respect to the Zhengs, then, by the way, if they were just fellow subjects?
    Probably because of Coxinga's reputation as a loyalist and his honorary adoption into the royal family. Not to mention on a practical term the Zheng's had a substantial force seen in the Revolt of the Three Feudatories.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    One of the political themes of DOMD was how the Ming Dynasty collapsed in large part due to internal conflict among its leadership. Indeed, just looking at all the different factions of the former Ming Dynasty gives you an idea of the main reason they never had much of a realistic chance of overthrowing the Qing Dynasty and restoring the Ming:

    Chan Gun Nam and the Heaven and Earth Society

    Cheng Hak Song and his teacher, Fung Sek Fan

    The House of Muk faction

    The House of Wong faction

    Lee Tze Sing

    Ng 3 Gwai (technically not a Ming revivalist, but also a former associate of the Ming military/government who had his own reasons for wanting to overthrow the Qing Dynasty)

    The One-Armed Nun

    The Gui Family

    Which of these entities, if any, had the most legitimate claim to restoring the Ming Dynasty? Was there something deeper than thirst for power, greed, and personal animosity to their being unable to all get on the same page?
    what is the mandarin name of Wong faction? i dont remember this faction
    who is the member?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Liew View Post
    Li Zicheng never wanted to revive the Ming Dynasty - if anything, he was the one mainly responsible for the fall of the Ming with his rebellion and attack on Beijing.
    Without Li Zicheng, the Ming Dynasty probably survived beyond Emperor Chongzhen. For better or worse, China would be very very different these days.

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