Ling Wu Chung runs the gauntlet against each of the other major JY protagonists

[Ken Cheng]

Ok
2.People think that DQ is 2nd or 3rd rate fighter and usually hate him.Becuase of that they think or want to think 9SOD is a overrate swordplay.

I'm a charter member of the "I Hate Dook Goo Kau Bai and Think He's Overrated Society," but even I wouldn't call him "2nd or 3rd rate." I have no problem believing or accepting that he was likely a terrific swordsman, but it does rankle me when people assume that he can kill all the Greats by just glancing sideways at them (which some of his ardent fans are wont to do).

I think Dook Goo Kau Bai was good enough to defeat any of the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY Greats one-on-one after a protracted struggle, but it won't be a quick, one-sided fight, and two or more Greats would probably overwhelm him.

[Polar-kun]

IMO would rate DGQB on or around experienced XZ/tranced SPT level, slightly above XY Elders.

[Snafu3721]

I'm a charter member of the "I Hate Dook Goo Kau Bai and Think He's Overrated Society," but even I wouldn't call him "2nd or 3rd rate." I have no problem believing or accepting that he was likely a terrific swordsman, but it does rankle me when people assume that he can kill all the Greats by just glancing sideways at them (which some of his ardent fans are wont to do).

I think Dook Goo Kau Bai was good enough to defeat any of the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY Greats one-on-one after a protracted struggle, but it won't be a quick, one-sided fight, and two or more Greats would probably overwhelm him.

I'm torn on DGQB. I actually don't see any way to definitively rank him. Although I do hate the notion that "Because DG9S is magic so therefore DGQB is SuperSaiyan!!!"

What we do know is DGQB has reached ROCH Greats level relatively early. Given that YG without mastery of Wooden stage is on =~ par with GJ. We know that DGQB has a few sets of techniques that are "Greats lvl" or above given what we've seen of later practitioners of HIS and DG9J. In fact, he may have techniques that belong to the God tier level such as 6MSJ or better.

In terms of internal, he has surpassed ROCH Greats-- which is no easy feat given how the forums rank the JY characters. The question that always remains is-- has he reached DY/XZ Internal? Or has he gone beyond?

I'm personally of the opinion that he has at minimum reached DY/XZ's level of internal. This is given that just mastering Wooden sword means significantly more internal than what YG was able to achieve. Then there is the no sword stage. From what we've seen from YG's progress, it would seem the requirement to jump sword stages in terms of internal is quite significant. It requires at least LOCH/early ROCH Greats lvl of internal to use HIS properly. And end ROCH internal is insufficient for wooden stage mastery. I can't imagine what no sword stage requirement for internal would be.

Then there are hints in SPW regarding Qi breaking stance which not even FQY has mastered. What I've always taken away from that was the last stage of DG9J was internal mastery both in quantity and in ability of usage. I don't believe Qi breaking stance refers to actually using a sword to break Qi... I believe it is using the principles of DG9J and using one's own Qi more efficiently and "breaking" another person's utilization of their Qi. Example: RWX roars, but DGQB would be able to send a counter roar that completely neutralizes RWX's and also reflect that internal damage back at RWX and with DGQB obviously using surprising positioning of his mouth

Given a person who has XZ like internal with techniques like DG9J and a true Swordsman mentality (granting him an X factor for battle)

He just might be able to take out a ROCH Great with ease. And this is coming from someone who believes that GWM actually doubled his internal and that YG/GJ is at least on par with XF.

[reydge]

I'm a charter member of the "I Hate Dook Goo Kau Bai and Think He's Overrated Society," but even I wouldn't call him "2nd or 3rd rate." I have no problem believing or accepting that he was likely a terrific swordsman, but it does rankle me when people assume that he can kill all the Greats by just glancing sideways at them (which some of his ardent fans are wont to do).

I think Dook Goo Kau Bai was good enough to defeat any of the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY Greats one-on-one after a protracted struggle, but it won't be a quick, one-sided fight, and two or more Greats would probably overwhelm him.

Everyone has his own opinion and you are free to hate DQ.But bringing him down has another story.with all of descriptions we can get it that DQ lived between DGSD and LOCH.In this era we have Xu Zhu,Duan Yu,Huang Shang and Sweeper Monk.This era probably was the golden era in JY universe.With all these conditions he defeated all of his opponents.
So there is no place for CH trilogy heroes in this matter and he is not overrate.

[Ken Cheng]

Everyone has his own opinion and you are free to hate DQ.But bringing him down has another story.with all of descriptions we can get it that DQ lived between DGSD and LOCH.In this era we have Xu Zhu,Duan Yu,Huang Shang and Sweeper Monk.This era probably was the golden era in JY universe.With all these conditions he defeated all of his opponents.

And it would have been nice if Jin Yong had actually explicitly described Dook Goo Kau Bai having fought one of those individuals, or someone in that class. Years ago, members of this forum even mooted that the "righteous warrior" whom DGKB was said to have injured was 9 Yum Jen Ging inventor Wong Seung. It would have been terrific if that were canon because then, we'd at least have something concrete to go on, but no...Jin Yong was all like, "Here's this Supreme Sword God I just pulled out of my gluteus maximus (even though he messes up all kinds of continuity). Imbibe from my gland, plebe."

I feel almost personally insulted by DGKB's fictitious existence.

[_Kenny_]

Each stage of the DG sword level in ROCH was a paradigm shift in swordsmanship.

1. Using other swords
2. HIS sword and its techniques
3. Wooden Sword stage
4. No Sword stage

I have always used this analogy in my head that the 1st stage was like walking in terms of travel, 2nd stage would be using a horse for travel, 3rd stage would be using an automobile for travel, and 4th stage would be using an airplane. Each stage of transportation was a paradigm shift in terms of traveling from one place to another and much more superior than the last stage.

YG is ranked level 80 by forum members without the HIS at the end of ROCH and yet he was nowhere close to mastering wooden sword stage. I'm just guessing the wooden sword stage would require one with the internal of Xu Zhu, maybe a little bit less but definitely more than the internal that GJ and YG had at the end of ROCH.

What would the paradigm shift from level 2 to 3 be like? I'm thinking since the wooden sword is so light, it more than likely emphasizes speed, quickness, and the variation of moves like the usage of a normal sword, unlike the HIS, but with massive internal power that dwarfs the 2nd stage and cuts through everything. Remember, YG when he was practicing the wooden sword for 6 years with the ocean training had enough internal to cut through trees without damaging his wooden sword, but yet this level of internal was not enough to master it. I'm guessing around Xu Zhu level of internal is required to master it.

The 4th stage? No doubt even more levels of internal power is needed to reach this stage. I remember Jin Yong stating in some interview years ago the reason why Sweeper Monk was so powerful was that he even had more internal power than Xu Zhu. Xu Zhu would probably be a character that has the internal power to be at the 3rd stage if he did focus on training with a wooden sword. The no sword stage where anything even a blade of grass can be used to kill someone? Just think of the level of internal needed. YG killed one of the top Mongol mercenaries with a hair pin post 16 years. To use anything like a blade of grass to kill someone? Even much more internal than what YG had at the end of ROCH.

Dugu, imo, wholeheartedly deserves his legendary ranking by many fans. Is he ranked equally with Sweeper? Well that's up to the readers and fans of Jin Yong to decide.

[Suet Seung]

Slightly off topic, but OMG! So I forget how old LingHu Chong is at the beginning of the novel, but I know he isn't as young as the latest 2018 actor looks. OMG....the actor looks about 18 or even 16. I mean LHC is the wine loving guy, I just can't imagine a youngster 16 drinking wine. I was just curious of how these yearly JY adaptations are doing and I just can't deal with this right now.

[a_tumiwa]

Slightly off topic, but OMG! So I forget how old LingHu Chong is at the beginning of the novel, but I know he isn't as young as the latest 2018 actor looks. OMG....the actor looks about 18 or even 16. I mean LHC is the wine loving guy, I just can't imagine a youngster 16 drinking wine. I was just curious of how these yearly JY adaptations are doing and I just can't deal with this right now.

he is 26 years old in 2nd edition novel, in the third edition Jin Yong cut 2 years , he becomes 24 years old, most people said 25 years old after the release of 2014 tv series adaptation , so its between 24-26 years and the event of SPW takes place approximately 2-3 years (i think 3 years is more accurate than 2 years, and his marriage with RYY is about 3 years after the end of SPW)
and LHC drink wine at age 4 (third edition novel, age 6 in second edition novel)

the artist of 2018 tv adaptation is actually 20+ years old, but his face .... lolz!

[CC]

Responding to various comments above on DGQB.

While I definitely agree that his internal is likely above ROCH greats due to his HIS stage. I don't agree that it immediately means that he is at XZ level.

1.) XZ and DY were freak accidents. XZ had about 3 times the internal of a Godly Exponent. The XY elders were already peak talent type martial artists using peak martial arts skills. How does DGKB get to 3 times their level without some freak event? Note that we don't even know what brand name internal energy base he had. (rant*and people here ding XF on internal because he had no big brand name 9 Yang type art*rank over)

2.) Sure you can say oh he trained by the waves and ate 6 tons of snake gall bladders. But that is extrapolating YG's progress like at least 3 times.

3.) The internal requirements for HIS was above the earlier swords and Wooden Sword is even higher. OK with this. BUT, that doesn't mean no sword stage required even higher internal. No sword stage could truly be a stage where, hey it doesn't matter if the other guy is faster or stronger, you see I just put my finger in a SURPRISING position and.........

[CancerLuna]

Responding to various comments above on DGQB.

While I definitely agree that his internal is likely above ROCH greats due to his HIS stage. I don't agree that it immediately means that he is at XZ level.

1.) XZ and DY were freak accidents. XZ had about 3 times the internal of a Godly Exponent. The XY elders were already peak talent type martial artists using peak martial arts skills. How does DGKB get to 3 times their level without some freak event? Note that we don't even know what brand name internal energy base he had. (rant*and people here ding XF on internal because he had no big brand name 9 Yang type art*rank over)

2.) Sure you can say oh he trained by the waves and ate 6 tons of snake gall bladders. But that is extrapolating YG's progress like at least 3 times.

3.) The internal requirements for HIS was above the earlier swords and Wooden Sword is even higher. OK with this. BUT, that doesn't mean no sword stage required even higher internal. No sword stage could truly be a stage where, hey it doesn't matter if the other guy is faster or stronger, you see I just put my finger in a SURPRISING position and.........

1. I can definitely stomach the fact that a potential top-2 in all of JY canon had an even bigger 'freak' accident than XZ and DY. This is someone who put YG in awe! We also got SPT...

2. I think a 3x extrapolation actually seems very little! We don't know how often he ate and how much access he had to the gall bladders and if there were limiting returns to them.

3. This is true but I think, taking it too far, we start getting into these 'DGQB is only *slightly* better than Greats.' comments. DG is at the very least 2 TIERS above YG.

[CC]

1. I can definitely stomach the fact that a potential top-2 in all of JY canon had an even bigger 'freak' accident than XZ and DY. This is someone who put YG in awe! We also got SPT...

2. I think a 3x extrapolation actually seems very little! We don't know how often he ate and how much access he had to the gall bladders and if there were limiting returns to them.

3. This is true but I think, taking it too far, we start getting into these 'DGQB is only *slightly* better than Greats.' comments. DG is at the very least 2 TIERS above YG.

1.) You mean, like he ate gall bladders sitting on the jade ice bed while learning the 1st 3 levels of Dragon Elephant Prana?

Overall, having him depend on freak accidents or gall bladders kinda takes something away. His descriptions on the sword tomb makes it like he was a self made guy, creating all his arts with his own experience and talent. If he had a XZ like fortune streak, kinda devalues his status IMHO.

[CancerLuna]

1.) You mean, like he ate gall bladders sitting on the jade ice bed while learning the 1st 3 levels of Dragon Elephant Prana?

Overall, having him depend on freak accidents or gall bladders kinda takes something away. His descriptions on the sword tomb makes it like he was a self made guy, creating all his arts with his own experience and talent. If he had a XZ like fortune streak, kinda devalues his status IMHO.

Dunno, Sweeper is something himself. We just gotta assume they found some insight that was just more profound than anything we saw firsthand.

[Snafu3721]

Responding to various comments above on DGQB.

While I definitely agree that his internal is likely above ROCH greats due to his HIS stage. I don't agree that it immediately means that he is at XZ level.............

Not saying these are true, but they are within realm of possibility

1) DGQB could be an even better talent than the Xiao Yao elders. So achieving at least their level of Internal should be feasible.
2) DGQB can have better X factor than even XF. While we do not know what special Internal manual he had, it isn't crazy to assume that DGQB may have that "raw talent"
3) Those Snake gallbladders not only gave huge internal boosts, it also reduced internal recovery time. For people like GJ with 9-yin and ZWJ with 9-yang, it still takes days to recover their "Zhen Qi". It seems like the gallbladders gives almost an instantaneous recovery to YG. If DGQB had trained until exhaustion, and then constantly ate the snake gallbladders to recover, it gives him a ridiculous edge as far as training efficiency. An efficiency that even the Xiao Yao elders don't have.
4) Realistically, given how YG trained and some comments from SPW DG9S users... I think it's also not ridiculous to assume that final stages of DGQB's cultivation required a high level of internal. This is where I've liked other wuxia's depiction of internal vs swordplay-- there was a scene in Wind and Cloud where Cloud had to fight an amazing swordsman with superior speed. Cloud wins the fight because he said "no matter how good your stances and your speed, you can't damage me enough because of my internal". I don't believe that DG9S allows the user to magically break an opponent's "Qi" with surprising finger positions. Unless it was a Naruto's 1000 years of pain.

Thus, I think it isn't impossible that DGQB can have XZ level of internal.
Even if he doesn't, it doesn't require multiples of internal to win a sword fight as demonstrated in SPW-- so I still think that DGQB can take out the ROCH Greats relatively easy

[CC]

Not saying these are true, but they are within realm of possibility

1) DGQB could be an even better talent than the Xiao Yao elders. So achieving at least their level of Internal should be feasible.
2) DGQB can have better X factor than even XF. While we do not know what special Internal manual he had, it isn't crazy to assume that DGQB may have that "raw talent"
3) Those Snake gallbladders not only gave huge internal boosts, it also reduced internal recovery time. For people like GJ with 9-yin and ZWJ with 9-yang, it still takes days to recover their "Zhen Qi". It seems like the gallbladders gives almost an instantaneous recovery to YG. If DGQB had trained until exhaustion, and then constantly ate the snake gallbladders to recover, it gives him a ridiculous edge as far as training efficiency. An efficiency that even the Xiao Yao elders don't have.
4) Realistically, given how YG trained and some comments from SPW DG9S users... I think it's also not ridiculous to assume that final stages of DGQB's cultivation required a high level of internal. This is where I've liked other wuxia's depiction of internal vs swordplay-- there was a scene in Wind and Cloud where Cloud had to fight an amazing swordsman with superior speed. Cloud wins the fight because he said "no matter how good your stances and your speed, you can't damage me enough because of my internal". I don't believe that DG9S allows the user to magically break an opponent's "Qi" with surprising finger positions. Unless it was a Naruto's 1000 years of pain.

Thus, I think it isn't impossible that DGQB can have XZ level of internal.
Even if he doesn't, it doesn't require multiples of internal to win a sword fight as demonstrated in SPW-- so I still think that DGQB can take out the ROCH Greats relatively easy

I can easily accept that DGKB was a XF like type of fighter. Able to learn quickly from encounters and with peak level fighting instinct. But instead of dying at 30 like XF, he continued brawling all over and improving until in his later life there really wasn't anyone to challenge him anymore. But you still don't need XZ levels of internal to do that (esp given the lack of named opponents). Even if he had say _just_ 10%-20% more internal than XF/Jiumozhi/XRB/XYS, coupled with his sword skills, that is already enough to be undefeated by anyone after DGSD.

[Ken Cheng]

Frankly, wuxia is more fun when there are limits. Power creep kills the fun.

[Snafu3721]

I can easily accept that DGKB was a XF like type of fighter. Able to learn quickly from encounters and with peak level fighting instinct. But instead of dying at 30 like XF, he continued brawling all over and improving until in his later life there really wasn't anyone to challenge him anymore. But you still don't need XZ levels of internal to do that (esp given the lack of named opponents). Even if he had say _just_ 10%-20% more internal than XF/Jiumozhi/XRB/XYS, coupled with his sword skills, that is already enough to be undefeated by anyone after DGSD.

I have no disagreement with that

I think it just depends on the view of DGSD vs ROCH elites.

Someone with slightly higher internal than XF but with godly sword skills can truly be undefeated post DGSD. Especially given he has something called Qi breaking stance

I personally find that the progression leans towards internal at late stages for DGQB. And that ROCH elites were already close to DGSD. So I always imagined DGQB to be in the legendary tier

[CC]

I have no disagreement with that

I think it just depends on the view of DGSD vs ROCH elites.

Someone with slightly higher internal than XF but with godly sword skills can truly be undefeated post DGSD. Especially given he has something called Qi breaking stance

I personally find that the progression leans towards internal at late stages for DGQB. And that ROCH elites were already close to DGSD. So I always imagined DGQB to be in the legendary tier

ROCH elites might not be far from XF/MRB/XYS/JMZ but their internal is still far from XZ. So really you don't need anything much more than slightly better than XF internal plus best sword skill in JY lore to dominate everything after DGSD.

And really, why need Qi Breaking Stance when you have XZ levels of internal. That in itself is like Universal Chi Breaker x2.5

[Snafu3721]

And really, why need Qi Breaking Stance when you have XZ levels of internal. That in itself is like Universal Chi Breaker x2.5

I meant that in case DGQB didn't have XZ internal, that qi breaking stance would come in handy.

But overall, yes... It wouldn't take XZ internal with great swordsmanship to dominate wulin.

It still begs the question, do you believe DGQB can take out ROCH guys with ease?

Using the DGSD story. Only people who can definitely defeat XF would be XZ, DY, Sweeps... This then goes back to how strong is DGQB?