What's the one quote or moral from a JY novel that had an impact on your life?

[Trien Chieu]

You could make the same argument against Yang Gou,do you consider his actions genocidal?

YG killed Mongke Khan so he might have thought that the war is over. It's logical to believe that no future khans are dare to invade as they are fear for their lives. As great as YG might be, he is never as great as GJ.

[wkeej]

You could make the same argument against Yang Gou,do you consider his actions genocidal?

Hi Manfred, while I am no fan of YG/ROCH, may I know which part of YG's actions is considered genocidal?

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

YG killed Mongke Khan so he might have thought that the war is over. It's logical to believe that no future khans are dare to invade as they are fear for their lives. As great as YG might be, he is never as great as GJ.

YG knew first hand the courage of the Mongol in battle, as well as the competence of Kublai. The idea that he would think the death of a Khan would end the war is ridiculous. The old YG vs GJ debate has been raging for decades so lets not drag it up again.

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

Hi Manfred, while I am no fan of YG/ROCH, may I know which part of YG's actions is considered genocidal?

Hi wkeej, I was not saying YG was genocidal, I was making a comparison between his actions and ZM's. Trien Chieu made the statement that ZM inactivity and abandonment of her people made her responsible for genocide. I was merely pointing out that YG could be accused of the same crime.

[wkeej]

Hi wkeej, I was not saying YG was genocidal, I was making a comparison between his actions and ZM's. Trien Chieu made the statement that ZM inactivity and abandonment of her people made her responsible for genocide. I was merely pointing out that YG could be accused of the same crime.

Maybe genocide is too "strong" a word. Because ZM did not "deliberately"/"intentionally" kill her own people.

[Patudo]

I would try to move to a better place that has better opportunity to improve my life. If that option is not possible, I would rather be a poor farmer living frugally to get by. I would not go to war to rob/loot the wealth from other civilizations. War should only for self defense, not for robbing/looting other people. If you are poor then you need to work hard, live below your means and live responsibly in order to move up the social ladder. It's something I believe in and doing all my life. For example, I don't want to live on rent forever so I save up every bit I could so that I can afford to buy a house in the future. I would never rob/loot from other people to get rich.

DO NOT DO TO OTHERS WHAT YOU DO NOT WANT DONE TO YOURSELF!

Clap clap clap clap clap. Have you much experience of being a farmer, if so, I'm sure you can imagine how hard being a farmer or herdsman was back in the old days. Those guys that went raiding probably didn't do it just for themselves. What if you could raid some people (that you don't particularly care for( and get a warm fur coat for your old mother, or some gold jewellery to impress the girl you fancied... You yourself might not be prepared to do it, fair enough. But you can see why a lot of guys would.

she left her people during critical time that is vulnerable to be genocide by the rebel. Would Li Ping do that? Would GJ do that?

Hmm, if the Song government had taken over Mongol territory, Han people settled into that territory, there was an uprising... what would Guo Jing do, indeed...???

[Trien Chieu]

Clap clap clap clap clap. Have you much experience of being a farmer, if so, I'm sure you can imagine how hard being a farmer or herdsman was back in the old days. Those guys that went raiding probably didn't do it just for themselves. What if you could raid some people (that you don't particularly care for( and get a warm fur coat for your old mother, or some gold jewellery to impress the girl you fancied... You yourself might not be prepared to do it, fair enough. But you can see why a lot of guys would.

Before moving to Canada, my family are farmer in Vietnam. We were not poor but not rich either. We did not have much and lived a very simple life. We are ok with it. I would work hard to save up the money so I can afford a simple coat for my mother. Regarding the girl I fancied, if she likes me, she does not need the gold jewelry. If she doesn't like me, the gold jewelry would not make a difference anyway. Money and wealth are good but you have to earn them the right way. You can always work hard, live below the means and save up whatever you could to move up the social ladder. Robbing/looting from others is not the way to go. How would you feel if you work hard all your life and other people rob/loot from you? Again, if I can move to the better area that has better opportunities, I would do it. However, I would never rob/loot from other people.

DO NOT DO TO OTHERS WHAT YOU DO NOT WANT DONE TO YOURSELF!

Hmm, if the Song government had taken over Mongol territory, Han people settled into that territory, there was an uprising... what would Guo Jing do, indeed...???

GJ would against the invasion and taking over Mongol territory. However, he would support immigration and cultural exchange. If the Han wanted to move to Mongolia to do business or work for living, he would support it. The same for the Mongolians, if they want to move to the Song territory to do business or work for a living, they should be free to do it.

[Patudo]

Before moving to Canada, my family are farmer in Vietnam. We were not poor but not rich either. We did not have much and lived a very simple life. We are ok with it. I would work hard to save up the money so I can afford a simple coat for my mother. Regarding the girl I fancied, if she likes me, she does not need the gold jewelry. If she doesn't like me, the gold jewelry would not make a difference anyway. Money and wealth are good but you have to earn them the right way. You can always work hard, live below the means and save up whatever you could to move up the social ladder.

1. so... how well do you think your girl would react if you proposed with a plastic engagement ring?

2. the culture of people whose ancestors for a hundred generations grew rice to be eaten by the emperor and the court officials is different to how people think who lived on the steppe and whose heroes and role models were warriors and conquerors, and who grew up with the kinds of skills that would naturally fit the warrior life.

[pannonian]

I would try to move to a better place that has better opportunity to improve my life. If that option is not possible, I would rather be a poor farmer living frugally to get by. I would not go to war to rob/loot the wealth from other civilizations. War should only for self defense, not for robbing/looting other people. If you are poor then you need to work hard, live below your means and live responsibly in order to move up the social ladder. It's something I believe in and doing all my life. For example, I don't want to live on rent forever so I save up every bit I could so that I can afford to buy a house in the future. I would never rob/loot from other people to get rich.

DO NOT DO TO OTHERS WHAT YOU DO NOT WANT DONE TO YOURSELF!

Read up about farming villages in Hong Kong and their regular struggles for dominance against each other. That ended when the British imposed a strong rule over the whole territory. Was it better for the Chinese under earlier Chinese rule, when those villages regularly fought against each other? Or was it better under (foreign) British rule, when they were no longer allowed to do that?

[Ian Liew]

My goodness, this thread started off in such a moving and touching way to show tribute to Jin Yong, and gets sidetracked and hijacked because of prejudices and bigotry yet again. Let's not go into how evil Mongols and Manchus are - I'm sick of such discussions, if they can be even called that.

I can't really think of a single quote which had an impact on my life, mainly because I don't really know which lines were from the novel and which ones were made up by TVB. The general morals adopted by these wuxia heroes, though, have impacted me greatly and define a lot of who I am today. While I never get close to these standards, they do set a benchmark for me as to what the ideal path would be, and in some cases provide lessons I should learn from. The way Tonglao and Li Qiushui carried their hatred into their 90s for nothing, the way Guo Jing refused to let a single innocent refugee die, the way Wei Xiaobao tried to read situations which were escalating out of hand, the way Wuji showed kindness and mercy even to those who called themselves enemies, the way Yang Kang let his greed and desire for comforts ruin what really mattered to him, the way Xiao Feng was torn between his loyalties to the Han and Khitan, the way Ah Zhu died due to a horrible, horrible misunderstanding, the way Yue Buqun's hypocritical facade deceived all around him, and so on...

[Ken Cheng]

My goodness, this thread started off in such a moving and touching way to show tribute to Jin Yong, and gets sidetracked and hijacked because of prejudices and bigotry yet again. Let's not go into how evil Mongols and Manchus are - I'm sick of such discussions, if they can be even called that.

I'm weighing the idea of culling this thread a bit, but don't want to make it a unilateral decision. What do you say, forum members? Leave it as is, or cull the undesirable material?

[dictionary]

I can't really think of a single quote which had an impact on my life, mainly because I don't really know which lines were from the novel and which ones were made up by TVB.

This. Not sure if it's Jin Yong's or TVB's but one saying that I remember is, if you don't want others to know about it, don't do it. Something like that. It's worded better in the series.

[pannonian]

My goodness, this thread started off in such a moving and touching way to show tribute to Jin Yong, and gets sidetracked and hijacked because of prejudices and bigotry yet again. Let's not go into how evil Mongols and Manchus are - I'm sick of such discussions, if they can be even called that.

I can't really think of a single quote which had an impact on my life, mainly because I don't really know which lines were from the novel and which ones were made up by TVB. The general morals adopted by these wuxia heroes, though, have impacted me greatly and define a lot of who I am today. While I never get close to these standards, they do set a benchmark for me as to what the ideal path would be, and in some cases provide lessons I should learn from. The way Tonglao and Li Qiushui carried their hatred into their 90s for nothing, the way Guo Jing refused to let a single innocent refugee die, the way Wei Xiaobao tried to read situations which were escalating out of hand, the way Wuji showed kindness and mercy even to those who called themselves enemies, the way Yang Kang let his greed and desire for comforts ruin what really mattered to him, the way Xiao Feng was torn between his loyalties to the Han and Khitan, the way Ah Zhu died due to a horrible, horrible misunderstanding, the way Yue Buqun's hypocritical facade deceived all around him, and so on...

Kang Xi in DOMD.

[Patudo]

My goodness, this thread started off in such a moving and touching way to show tribute to Jin Yong, and gets sidetracked and hijacked because of prejudices and bigotry yet again. Let's not go into how evil Mongols and Manchus are - I'm sick of such discussions, if they can be even called that.

Actually there is a funny sort of parallel here - one of the most interesting aspects of JY's works (to me anyway) is are how he touches upon the darker side of human nature - prejudices, bigotry, deep inter-ethnic hatred and conflict and so on, in his stories. JY's depictions of how craven, cowardly, easily led, and self-interested people can be, are really entertaining in some respects, yet also ring true to life. I guess growing up in the era JY did provided him with no shortage of material - and indeed personal experience - to draw upon. The part of Qiao/Xiao Feng's story where the truth of his ancestry came out, and the reaction of the Beggar Sect members to it, is intended to underline that Chinese/Han people can be deeply prejudiced as anyone else, and I think by doing so may well be intended to deflect criticisms that "foreigners" in the Condor books tended to be portrayed negatively.

The interaction between the various foreigners and foreign powers and Chinese/Han people and their governments, from the level of nation against nation to personal relationships and conflicts both internal and inter-personal (Yang Kang, Guo Jing, Zhao Min, Xiao Feng...), is the aspect of JY's stories that has given me the most food for thought over the years, especially in the context of recent history and current events. The Jin empire (大金) being presented in LOCH as hated aggressors is probably the example that comes most easily to mind, and knowing the more recent history of China it's very hard to read it and not think about the aggression and humiliation that China endured at the hands of foreigners in the 19th and 20th centuries - just like it's impossible to read certain passages in XAJH, for instance, and not think about the flattery heaped on totalitarian leaders in Jin Yong's present (and our only very recent past). That Chinese emigrants to the United States referred to the country as 金山 - I only know this through my reading, so correct me if I'm wrong - gives added resonance to the Jin empire being the oppressors of China. Many of those readers who have grown up in North America, or Europe, will I'm sure have thought that their background is to some extent similar to that of Wanyan/Yang Kang... and may even have some empathy with his decision to side with where he was raised and brought up.

[Patudo]

Ian, I read something you wrote back in 2007 that - I wouldn't say had an impact on my life but I did find very interesting. I mention it because it ties into the theme of conflict of loyalty and struggles between nations and ethnic groups that I find really interesting in Jin Yong's stories.

I have actually just found it after a bit of searching:

...if Singapore or China ever invaded Malaysia, would I defend my country knowing that the government does not have my interests at heart, or do I side with the Chinese and Singaporeans because I know (well, assume) that I'll have a better life under them? The tale of Guo Jing makes me lean toward the former. If the Malaysian government does fall to an invasion, it will not be because I betrayed the trust my country put in me...

I thought this was a really interesting line of thought and I'd be really interested to know if, after the developments of the 10 years, you still think the same (and indeed I wish I knew what Jin Yong's true thoughts on the matter would be). I have some familiarity with the situation in Malaysia, and if my understanding is correct, people of Chinese (and indeed Indian) descent are not equally treated compared to the ethnic Malay majority - this I think is what you are referring to when you say your government does not have your interests at heart. Whereas in Singapore the overseas Chinese are the majority, and enjoy political as well as economic supremacy. If Singapore used its overwhelming military power to capture the Malay Peninsula, you seem to acknowledge that you - and probably your children as well - will likely have a better life, governed strictly but competently, by people of the same ethnic background (and indeed cultural background, being overseas Chinese, rather than the Chinese of the mainland). Given how the Malay-dominated government of Malaysia treats its Chinese citizens, to what extent has your government really placed trust in you - and to what extent would siding with your own ethnicity constitute a betrayal?

[Ian Liew]

This. Not sure if it's Jin Yong's or TVB's but one saying that I remember is, if you don't want others to know about it, don't do it. Something like that. It's worded better in the series.

"若要人不知，除非己莫为"? In Canto - "York yiu yan bat chi, chui fei gei mok wai". That's a common phrase used in Chinese, and not really from Jin Yong or TVB, though It does sound really cool and classic, though, mainly because it is!

[Ian Liew]

Ian, I read something you wrote back in 2007 that - I wouldn't say had an impact on my life but I did find very interesting. I mention it because it ties into the theme of conflict of loyalty and struggles between nations and ethnic groups that I find really interesting in Jin Yong's stories.

I have actually just found it after a bit of searching:



I thought this was a really interesting line of thought and I'd be really interested to know if, after the developments of the 10 years, you still think the same (and indeed I wish I knew what Jin Yong's true thoughts on the matter would be). I have some familiarity with the situation in Malaysia, and if my understanding is correct, people of Chinese (and indeed Indian) descent are not equally treated compared to the ethnic Malay majority - this I think is what you are referring to when you say your government does not have your interests at heart. Whereas in Singapore the overseas Chinese are the majority, and enjoy political as well as economic supremacy. If Singapore used its overwhelming military power to capture the Malay Peninsula, you seem to acknowledge that you - and probably your children as well - will likely have a better life, governed strictly but competently, by people of the same ethnic background (and indeed cultural background, being overseas Chinese, rather than the Chinese of the mainland). Given how the Malay-dominated government of Malaysia treats its Chinese citizens, to what extent has your government really placed trust in you - and to what extent would siding with your own ethnicity constitute a betrayal?

Hehe, I panicked at the opening line, wondering what incriminating words I wrote over a decade ago which I'd now be forced to swallow...

In short, yes. Without reservation. There will come a point where self-preservation will become a priority, for example if I were a Rohingya in Myanmar, and if Bangladesh were to invade Myanmar, I would be unlikely to lay down my life defending the country which has persecuted my people to such an extent, but in Malaysia we are nowhere near that point. There are a lot of things which can be done much better, and the current Muslim majority's rejection of and open hostility towards even discussing the ICERD is an example of how far we still have to go, but we've still always felt at home, and never like our livelihoods and lives were in danger. Things have also improved significantly with the latest elections in May this year, where the party which relied on racial politics to stay in power for 60 years was finally defeated, and while we still read about neo-nationalistic activity here and there the response from even the local Malay Muslims has been admirably moderate. If I thought in terms of ethnicity, that would make me no better than the Muslim neo-nationalists - Malaysia is a unique society where various races, cultures and religions meld together and try to mutually respect each other while embracing the cool things about each other. In practice, things don't always work out, and as you say, one particular race and religion has special privileged positions so that it's never a fair exchange, but this is my country, and this is my home. The same thing I'll say to a Malay who questions my ethnicity. Not to say that I'll never migrate if things go pear-shaped, but the situation would have to be untenable internally (as with the Rohingyas), rather than due to any external interference such as war.

[tape]

Very thought-provoking post juvetb - thank you for asking.

I cannot really say that there has been a "quote/mini-story/moral/teaching" that has really affected my life, but at the same time, those themes and storylines have often been the background music to my life, so to speak, and given much food for thought.

One "moral", if one might call it that, I have often mulled over is the message JY made pretty clearly in LOCH - that no matter where a Chinese person grows up, no matter what his upbringing is, for him/her not to be loyal to China represents a great moral failing. To what extent should we be bound by our genes? There must be millions of people of Chinese descent that grew up in the United States, just like Guo Jing and Yang Kang did under the Mongol and Jin rulers. Where should their allegiances be? This isn't an academic question either, given the tensions between the two great superpowers.

Thinking about it, I think if China were the aggressor and in the wrong in my mind, I would without doubt side and fight with the United States and have zero qualms about it.

If the United States were the aggressor, I would be conflicted and hope China prevails/defends themselves adequately but ultimately would not feel close enough of a connection to actively do anything.

If the Song were the ones invading the Mongols though, I wonder what Guo Jing's mom would say about it. It seems way too simplistic to think she would just say always side with the Song and her words were more phrased that way because the Song were the ones in the vulnerable position. I think most people have their "loyalty" defined with a certain percentage of nationalism and who-is-in-the-right. Some people are extreme like 90/10 and will defend their country in almost any situation, but most will likely take into consideration the situation and reason for conflict.

[Trien Chieu]

1. so... how well do you think your girl would react if you proposed with a plastic engagement ring?

If the girl broke up with me because I don't have the gold/silver ring then I can live with it. I won't go rob/loot from others for it. I will work hard and save up for the ring but if I still can't afford it, then be it that way.

2. the culture of people whose ancestors for a hundred generations grew rice to be eaten by the emperor and the court officials is different to how people think who lived on the steppe and whose heroes and role models were warriors and conquerors, and who grew up with the kinds of skills that would naturally fit the warrior life.

Whatever culture you grew up with, you should know better not to rob/loot from others. What is not yours you should not touch it. How would you feel if the situation is reverse? I refuge to rob/loot from other people. Whatever I wanted, I will work hard and save up for it.

DO NOT DO TO OTHERS WHAT YOU DO NOT WANT DONE TO YOURSELF!

[juvetb]

Back on thread: One other example which really struck me was Huang Rong. LOCH featured an adventurous, mischievous, open-minded, independent (as well as smart and loyal HR).

By ROCH, HR had become conservative, a joy-kill and narrow-minded. While she previously hated people imposing their views on how she lived life, she had now become the one imposing her views.

One of the biggest questions in life is - are the product of nature or nurture? The answer is obviously both. And after coding the entire human genome in 2001, we now know this is biologically true. We have often believed that DNA are the parts that make up Genes, which then affects our behaviour and personality. In reality, at least 95% of DNA does not code for genes. We used to think that humans had 100,000 genes, but this estimate is now closer to 20,000.

So what does the vast majority of non gene coding DNA do? Well (and simplified here) - they interact with the environment that impacts when and how genes are expressed. That's one of the 2 main differences between us and chimps (even though we share many genes) - we are a lot more able to perceive, and change with the environment.

If you're down in life, have the confidence that you can indeed make enormous changes to yourself.

I'm weighing the idea of culling this thread a bit, but don't want to make it a unilateral decision. What do you say, forum members? Leave it as is, or cull the undesirable material?

Have some views on identity, war, country, and virtues, but shall reserve them as this discussion does get sidetracked.