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How many end-of-LOCH GJs equal a Great?
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Thread: How many end-of-LOCH GJs equal a Great?

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default How many end-of-LOCH GJs equal a Great?

    Gwok Jing's martial arts at the end of LOCH are generally given as around 70% that of a Great, but since we also know that even at that point, a Great could defeat him fairly handily if the Great immediately went for the kill and didn't get careless or cute (which both East Heretic and North Beggar did during their matches with him on Mt. Hua), how many end-of-LOCH Gwok Jings would it actually take to overwhelm a Great to the point there the Great has very little chance of winning against the multiple Gwok Jings, even if the Great were completely focused and intent on trying to win? Would two be sufficient, or would more be necessary?

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    I think 2 GJ should be sufficient to win, even if any of the Great were 100% focused.

    First, I am of the opinion that end-LOCH GJ is closer to 80-85% of a Great, rather than 70%. Remember that HYS utilized 70% internal + 90+% technique right off the bat and was still at a disadvantage.

    Second and the more crucial factor, 1 Plus 1 is MUCH bigger than 2. It is exponentially tougher to fight against 2 opponent at once (much less 2 with 左右互搏). There is no way a Great could use his 100% to immediately kill 1 GJ while simultaneously guarding against another GJ. Even if he manage to take out 1 GJ in this manner, he would be mortally wounded by the 2nd GJ.

    End-LOCH GJ is capable of unleashing a Dragon Palm as strong as any full-power attack from HQG. 1 Direct Hit and it's game-over for the Great.

    And so...my thoughts:

    The Great could definitely last for a long time if they drag out the battle. If he wants, I think he can even escape unscathed against 2 GJs - but I don't think he can defeat 2 of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WuxiaMaster View Post
    End-LOCH GJ is capable of unleashing a Dragon Palm as strong as any full-power attack from HQG. 1 Direct Hit and it's game-over for the Great.

    And so...my thoughts:
    I'd say was close but when Hong Qigong launched a full power palm he was quickly unable to resist and Hong retracted his power.

    And Huang Yaoshi though he had to use near his full power as well defeated him in ~100 stances. The general view seems to be people close in levell take thousands.

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    Senior Member CancerLuna's Avatar
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    We'd probably have to clarify the question.

    How many End-LOCH GJs can beat End-LOCH Greats? Or how many End-LOCH GJs can beat End-ROCH Greats?

    That question ALONE would probably be bigger than this thread. I've wavered back and forth myself but these days I'm convinced End-ROCH Greats are substantially better than their LOCH counterparts and can take on 1 to maybe even 3 GJs.

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    I think the elder Greats, at most, might have become 25% more powerful by the end of ROCH than they had been at the end of LOCH (even that might be an overestimate). Diminishing returns, and all that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CancerLuna View Post
    We'd probably have to clarify the question.

    How many End-LOCH GJs can beat End-LOCH Greats? Or how many End-LOCH GJs can beat End-ROCH Greats?

    That question ALONE would probably be bigger than this thread. I've wavered back and forth myself but these days I'm convinced End-ROCH Greats are substantially better than their LOCH counterparts and can take on 1 to maybe even 3 GJs.
    One thing I wouldn't like is that GWM at the same age as the LOCH Greats is much more powerful than them. That'd be fine for a protagonist, but for a sub-par villain it'd be a bit off putting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    One thing I wouldn't like is that GWM at the same age as the LOCH Greats is much more powerful than them. That'd be fine for a protagonist, but for a sub-par villain it'd be a bit off putting.
    It's not so much him as it is the kind of martial arts he practiced. In terms of producing massive amounts of inner power in a relatively short period, Lung Jeung Bor Yeh Gung was truly monstrous.

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    My opinion:
    1. Pre 16 GWM = LOCH Great
    2. The difference between ROCH Great and LOCH Great is roughly the same difference as LOCH Great and End-LOCH GJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    One thing I wouldn't like is that GWM at the same age as the LOCH Greats is much more powerful than them. That'd be fine for a protagonist, but for a sub-par villain it'd be a bit off putting.
    That settles it. GWM is a genius too.

    I digress, I think GWM's martial arts were definitely at the level of the ROCH greats pre-16 (and post) but his combat abilities were more in line with ZWJ's.

    So although, I'd rate GWM == GJ (pre-16 years) in terms of martial arts, I also believe GJ (and the other greats) would all win fairly decisively against him Pre-16.

    I believe the same with ZWJ, his MA is at the very least on the same level as all the Greats, but I don't think he can win any 1v1 fights against any of them.

    -

    At the very least we know GWM/YG's own progression.

    YG was easily > GWM pre 16 years.

    IIRC GWM improved SO much that he was confident he could win against YG even with his HIS after 16 years.
    That means GWM even knowing YG's growth rate and their level gap pre-16 improved so much he thought he could win.

    YG improved so much hand-to-hand combat that he *beat* (even without full power) the GWM (that was confident he can beat pre16 HIS YG).

    Without specific examples in mind, 20-30% better seems substantial to me in terms of combat prowess. (Maybe 20% better means way way better.)

    We could probably first guess how much better YG was than GWM pre 16 years (and maybe YG/QQR).

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    Wuji, if properly motivated to launch a full on smackdown, is a totally different proposition to when he's constrained by having to be a peacemaker. It's quite a clever plot device on JY's part I reckon - Wuji has (effectively) superpowers but often cannot unleash them to the full.

    GWM is a difficult one to fathom - he's probably in the same ballpark as the greats as regards internal energy, and his wheel techniques don't seem too far off the best techniques either. He's too overawed by top class Zhongyuan (Central Plains) technique though - basically a martial arts version of Tibetan cultural inferiority. That mental handicap places him decidedly behind the 4 greats. He's more of a Qiu Qianren type.

    How old was GWM pre-16 years anyway?

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    Originally Posted by Patudo
    How old was GWM pre-16 years anyway?



    about 57-59 years old


    @CancerLuna: pls check your VM >_<

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