Do you buy the idea that Kau Cheen Yan's martial arts level is 98% of an LOCH Great?

[Ken Cheng]

Jin Yong explicitly characterized Iron Palm Union Chief Kau Cheen Yan's martial arts as 98% that of an LOCH Great, but judging from KCY's performances against Gwok Jing and other opponents (compared to performances by the Greats), he doesn't seem to be quite at that level. By my estimation, Kau Cheen Yan is only 85% of a Great at best, and might even be as low as 80% of a Great.

[tape]

When I think about it, besides young Guo Jing thinking his martial arts were no lower than Hong Qigong (which can easily be off by a large amount considering his level at the time), how many other instances did other characters or JY specifically state he was equal to the Greats?

[Western Eccentric]

If we talking about QQR he's never been at the same level as "Greats" even in ROCH I mean he alwayz 90%-95% of Greats (at best) all the time LOCH or ROCH..

[WuxiaMaster]

I have a feeling that end LOCH GJ can probably edge out QQR. LOL.

[Western Eccentric]

It's might be true and quite possible but in death or life duel I'll give my money for QQR..

[WuxiaMaster]

This is a good place to continue discussion on QQR, since the other thread was "kidnapped" by ZWJ...

Regardless of whether you think ZWJ underperformed or not, he was at least supported by his Great LV skillset. That makes it possible to rate him at ROCH Great at worst(for people who do think so), to as good as GJ/YG.

For QQR, he has no such imba skillset to fall back on. Hence, we can only rely on his actual performance to verify jinyong words (that he is 98% of a Great). And his track record looked TERRIBLE:

LOCH GJ was constantly dominated by OYF/HYS through the entire series. OYF absolutely destroyed GJ in a single blow that he had to recuperate for 7 days 7 nights. Even 'late-story' Mongol Desert GJ, OYF had no trouble capturing him and toying around with him for practice. Browsing some excerpts, even as late as Chapter 38 (the 3rd last chapter):

拆了三十余招，郭靖究竟功力不及，被欧阳锋抢上半步，右掌抹到了胁下。郭靖难以闪避，只得停手 待毙，哪知欧 阳锋竟不发劲，笑道：“今日到此为止，你练几招真经上的功夫，明日再跟你打过。

GJ could only take 30+ exchange with OYF. Basically, GJ pose little threat to OYF.

On the other hand, 'mid-story' GJ was able to hold up surprisingly well against QQR. He exchanged palms with QQR as early as at Beggar meet.

裘千仞一招接过，已试出郭靖的真实功夫，以内力修为而论，自己尚胜他半筹.
“After the exchange, QQR already know GJ skill LV. In terms of internal, he’s still ahead by half a tier.”

Jinyong even say that QQR internal is only half a tier higher than GJ. (Another evidence that his words can't be trusted... or can it? )

And then, at Mt Iron Palm, this happened:

两人掌力相交，砰砰两声，各自退出三步。只不过裘千仞稳稳站住，郭靖却身子连晃了两下，这一掌 既交，双方可 说高下已判，昨晚在君山借着丐帮弟子的身子较劲，两人似乎打成了平手，然而那是由于郭靖出手中 带着天罡北斗 阵的巧劲，此刻硬碰硬的比拚，毕竟还是输了一筹。

“The 2 palms clashed, ‘pak! pak!’ and both took 3 steps backwards. However, QQR stood firmly while GJ body shooked twice.”

Really?! I can't help but feel the description seems to suggest that GJ is only 1 tier behind QQR, which is obviously not the case if he's 98% of a Great. If it was OYF, it would have been “OYF stood firmly while GJ flew back 10 steps”.

And the best part, not long after, GJ was able to scare off (defeat?) QQR by teaming up with Huang Rong and Ying Gu. I cannot imagine a greater discrepancy between characters of supposedly same LV.

[wkeej]

Jin Yong explicitly characterized Iron Palm Union Chief Kau Cheen Yan's martial arts as 98% that of an LOCH Great, but judging from KCY's performances against Gwok Jing and other opponents (compared to performances by the Greats), he doesn't seem to be quite at that level. By my estimation, Kau Cheen Yan is only 85% of a Great at best, and might even be as low as 80% of a Great.

Ken, able to provide the source of this 98%?
If so, why was QQR easily defeated by Yideng in the latest LOCH series?

[Western Eccentric]

This is a good place to continue discussion on QQR, since the other thread was "kidnapped" by ZWJ...

Regardless of whether you think ZWJ underperformed or not, he was at least supported by his Great LV skillset. That makes it possible to rate him at ROCH Great at worst(for people who do think so), to as good as GJ/YG.

For QQR, he has no such imba skillset to fall back on. Hence, we can only rely on his actual performance to verify jinyong words (that he is 98% of a Great). And his track record looked TERRIBLE:

LOCH GJ was constantly dominated by OYF/HYS through the entire series. OYF absolutely destroyed GJ in a single blow that he had to recuperate for 7 days 7 nights. Even 'late-story' Mongol Desert GJ, OYF had no trouble capturing him and toying around with him for practice. Browsing some excerpts, even as late as Chapter 38 (the 3rd last chapter):

拆了三十余招，郭靖究竟功力不及，被欧阳锋抢上半步，右掌抹到了胁下。郭靖难以闪避，只得停手 待毙，哪知欧 阳锋竟不发劲，笑道：“今日到此为止，你练几招真经上的功夫，明日再跟你打过。

GJ could only take 30+ exchange with OYF. Basically, GJ pose little threat to OYF.

On the other hand, 'mid-story' GJ was able to hold up surprisingly well against QQR. He exchanged palms with QQR as early as at Beggar meet.

裘千仞一招接过，已试出郭靖的真实功夫，以内力修为而论，自己尚胜他半筹.
“After the exchange, QQR already know GJ skill LV. In terms of internal, he’s still ahead by half a tier.”

Jinyong even say that QQR internal is only half a tier higher than GJ. (Another evidence that his words can't be trusted... or can it? )

And then, at Mt Iron Palm, this happened:

两人掌力相交，砰砰两声，各自退出三步。只不过裘千仞稳稳站住，郭靖却身子连晃了两下，这一掌 既交，双方可 说高下已判，昨晚在君山借着丐帮弟子的身子较劲，两人似乎打成了平手，然而那是由于郭靖出手中 带着天罡北斗 阵的巧劲，此刻硬碰硬的比拚，毕竟还是输了一筹。

“The 2 palms clashed, ‘pak! pak!’ and both took 3 steps backwards. However, QQR stood firmly while GJ body shooked twice.”

Really?! I can't help but feel the description seems to suggest that GJ is only 1 tier behind QQR, which is obviously not the case if he's 98% of a Great. If it was OYF, it would have been “OYF stood firmly while GJ flew back 10 steps”.

And the best part, not long after, GJ was able to scare off (defeat?) QQR by teaming up with Huang Rong and Ying Gu. I cannot imagine a greater discrepancy between characters of supposedly same LV.

Well mau I ask Yu how can Wuji (Lv 68 - at Brightness Peak battle) rank higher than YTZ (Lv 60 - at Shaolin battle) since we all know YTZ can "defeat" DCQ/Xuanci even give XF "hard time" while Wuji have "trouble" with someone like Mijue/Kongsheng though he can win..
At that time
Wuji better technique (Qian Kun) less internal
YTZ monsterous internal weak technique
But judging they perform how can Wuji rank "higher" than YTZ

[WuxiaMaster]

This should be in the ranking chart thread... but... early ZWJ improved a lot after every battle.

After mastering 9YSG he should be at LV60, same as YTZ, which is in the chart (YJJ = 9YSG). Basically at this point, both of them have Great+ Internal and very bad/non existent fighting skill.

QKDNY is a great defensive skill, enabled Wuji to quickly see the 'flaws' in his opponents skills and even mimic them. At this point he should already be ahead of YTZ, but he still lacked combat experience and actual external techniques. Then came the Bright Peak series of battle which gained him a lot of it.

At the end of Bright Peak battle (I will update this), LV68 seems reasonable - attained Great LV, far ahead of everyone in current wulin, but still slightly behind LOCH Greats.

He improved greatly again after mastering Taiji sword/fists, and imo that's when he could finally compete on the LV of Condor Trilogy Greats.

[Ken Cheng]

It's been said that during L/ROCH, Kau Cheen Yan's martial arts level was 98% that of the Greats, but based on performance, I don't think he could be any better than 85% of a Great at most.

[Western Eccentric]

Well in the novel GJ once notice he is in the same "level" with H7Q HYS and OYF (Greats) though Greats still a bit better IMHO but I don't think end LOCH GJ could beat him..

[Snafu3721]

I personally don't feel that QQR shold be at 98% of a Great based on his performance. I agree with Ken that it's more like 85%. This helps explain how GJ can still "handle" QQR

But I've always had this issue of how to classify ZBT relative to QQR
What % of a Great was ZBT prior to 9-yin? And what % is he after?

would ZBT be equal to QQR prior to 9-yin (so around 85% of a Great)?
If it was the case, it does seem consistent that a Great can dispatch QQR/ZBT but still require some effort. And QQR can dispatch GJ (70% of a Great) but will require some effort

[Western Eccentric]

I personally don't feel that QQR shold be at 98% of a Great based on his performance. I agree with Ken that it's more like 85%. This helps explain how GJ can still "handle" QQR

But I've always had this issue of how to classify ZBT relative to QQR
What % of a Great was ZBT prior to 9-yin? And what % is he after?

would ZBT be equal to QQR prior to 9-yin (so around 85% of a Great)?
If it was the case, it does seem consistent that a Great can dispatch QQR/ZBT but still require some effort. And QQR can dispatch GJ (70% of a Great) but will require some effort

QQR was invited by WCY to join 1st Huashan duel but he didn't come so I think though he "weaker" than Greats he still "stronger" than ZBT (pre 9 Yin/LOCH) but 20 years later after ZBT mastered Vacant Fist and L/R hand skill he is only a bit weaker than Greats perhaps 95% Greats and a bit stronger than QQR which make QQR 90% of Greats (judging their martial arts and skill not fighting prowess) but if ZBT use 9 Yin he would 10-15% better than Greats and mich stronger than QQR..

[hyoyatika]

Why are we arguing about this? Didn't QQR died from exhaustion after fighting for 1 night with GWM? If so, then QQR can't be that far behind the Greats.

[Ken Cheng]

Why are we arguing about this? Didn't QQR died from exhaustion after fighting for 1 night with GWM? If so, then QQR can't be that far behind the Greats.

However, throughout LOCH, Kau Cheen Yan did much more poorly against the young Gwok Jing than the Greats did. The young Gwok Jing was usually able to hold his own against Kau Cheen Yan for a surprisingly long time, but could not do the same against the Greats.

[Western Eccentric]

Well since We almost always considered martial artist/fighter at "their peak" in the end of story (i.e Greats and their peers) then We must look at ROCH QQR not LOCH QQR which he could "hold his own" against post 16 years JLFW for day and night..

[hyoyatika]

However, throughout LOCH, Kau Cheen Yan did much more poorly against the young Gwok Jing than the Greats did. The young Gwok Jing was usually able to hold his own against Kau Cheen Yan for a surprisingly long time, but could not do the same against the Greats.

To be honest, I see no valid explanation as well. I have to chalk this up to plot holes/armor. QQR, for all his failings during LOCH, never did seem afraid of the other Greats. If I recall right, he was pretty rude towards Ouyang Ke as well. QQR was a crafty man who always watched his back-if he feared Ouyang Feng, I doubt he would take a piss at Ouyang Ke.

I don't think he could beat the Greats (he would just give them a good run for their money), but similarly, I don't believe the Greats could defeat him easily either.

[Polar-kun]

I have an unpopular opinion that QQR mostly improved during the 16yr ROCH timeskip more than between LOCH and ROCH due to him finally free of volatile nature, to the point of being able to hold off JLFW for a long time.

[Western Eccentric]

I even thought JLFW not use his 10th Dragon Wisdom skill when he fought QQR that's why the fight get longer..