Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 25

Thread: Is it possible that Yideng is actually weaker than the other Greats?

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    428

    Default Is it possible that Yideng is actually weaker than the other Greats?

    A random thought sparked off by a recent discussion on QQR. I know it goes against the canon of all Greats being equal, but it's an interesting idea to explore.


    Now, why would I say that?


    What are the possible evidence of Yideng being slightly weaker than the other Greats?


    1. Yideng NEVER once fought the other 3 Greats (on screen). We know the other 3 Greats are equal because we see them fight each other constantly in ROCH and especially LOCH. In fact, Yideng participated in a grand total of... ZERO fights in LOCH.


    2. Unlike the other Greats, Yideng stopped actively trying to improve his martial arts to new heights since becoming a monk, pre-LOCH. He's more interested in chanting sutra to redeem his sins. Wouldn't that slow down his martial arts progression (however little), relative to the other Greats?


    3. He used up "5 years of internal cultivation" to purge HR poison (although if i recall correctly, he restored these via 9YZJ). Given his benevolent nature, it is likely he would use similar techniques to help other dying people during his travels.


    4. In ROCH, Yideng fought QQR and can only "hope to beat QQR by half a stance after 1000 exchange". Perhaps this is actually true - because we know how overrated QQR is! This would make total sense if Yideng actually sits somewhere between QQR and the other 3 Greats. This is further supported by the fact that YG defeated QQR much faster than 1000 stance shortly after.


    5. The only other character he fought a full scale fight with was post 16 GWM, and we know Yideng would have lost. GWM never fought HYS. Is it not possible that GWM = HYS, and both are ahead of Yideng?


    Conclusion:


    Aside from "author intention", there is no actual on screen evidence that Yideng is on par with the other Greats. The only 2 chars he fought with in the whole condor series are QQR and GWM, and we know the performance of these 2 guys.

    I would argue that Yideng might actually be closer to QQR LV rather than the 3 other Greats.
    Last edited by WuxiaMaster; 03-01-19 at 01:25 PM.

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Posts
    443

    Default

    The problem is YD don't have great palm skill like Sad Palm or Vacant Fist which make him "bad" in hand to hand combat since he's only rely on finger skill (Yiyang Zhi) and his "lose" to GWM due to "stamina" not in "martial art" (internal/external skill)..

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    4,774

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by WuxiaMaster View Post
    A random thought sparked off by a recent discussion on QQR. I know it goes against the canon of all Greats being equal, but it's an interesting idea to explore.


    Now, why would I say that?


    What are the possible evidence of Yideng being slightly weaker than the other Greats?


    1. Yideng NEVER once fought the other 3 Greats (on screen). We know the other 3 Greats are equal because we see them fight each other constantly in ROCH and especially LOCH. In fact, Yideng participated in a grand total of... ZERO fights in LOCH.

    4. In ROCH, Yideng fought QQR and can only "hope to beat QQR by half a stance after 1000 exchange". Perhaps this is actually true - because we know how overrated QQR is! This would make total sense if Yideng actually sits somewhere between QQR and the other 3 Greats. This is further supported by the fact that YG defeated QQR much faster than 1000 stance shortly after.
    1. That's right
    4. LOCH instead of ROCH?

    Yideng fought in the first Mt Hua tournament? If i were correct, his standard should be level with the others then to be consider one of the Greats.

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    562

    Default

    at least his internal energy is the highest among the greats, according to Yang Guo, who had meet other greats (minus WCY)

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Posts
    443

    Default

    Yeeep YG say his strength "comparable" with GJ and Jue Yuan (and perhaps himself)..

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Posts
    3,568

    Default

    Originally in the first edition it actually said Yideng was slightly superior to all the other Greats (during the first Huashan tournament). They were changed to be all equal, but it would be strange for him to go from strongest to weakest.

  7. #7
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    121

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by WuxiaMaster View Post
    [FONT=Verdana]

    Yideng being slightly weaker than the other Greats?...
    That seems entirely possible to me - he wouldn't have "trained bitterly" since Huashan 1 in the way the others did - his priorities after that would have been more spiritual than the desire to become tian xia di yi.

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    428

    Default

    I think the strongest evidence came from him thinking that he is on par with QQR (assuming he is correct).

    1. Heavy Iron Sword YG is slightly better, or roughly equal to GWM, depending on how you see the fight.

    2. All evidence point to GWM being 1 tier below GJ, despite what Jinyong says (e.g. mongol camp fight)

    3. GJ is at least equal, and likely better than 4 Greats. (GJ also had a short exchange with OYF)

    4. Hence, their ranking is: GWM <= YG ~= ROCH Great <= GJ

    Finally, YG defeated QQR, much more decisively than he defeated GWM.

    QQR < GWM <= YG ~= ROCH Great <= GJ

    Yideng can only hope to draw with QQR.
    Last edited by WuxiaMaster; 03-13-19 at 11:26 AM.

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Posts
    443

    Default

    When come in palm to palm/hand to hand combat it's indeed YD < QQR/GJ/other Greats but YG also mention that his internal strength "stronger" than QQR so I think though he might "lose" in hand to hand fight against Greats he outclassed them in "strength"..

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    562

    Default

    GWM with elephant dragon lv10, is that weak?

  11. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Posts
    443

    Default

    Pre 16 GWM < GJ/Greats..
    Post 16 GWM >/= Greats/GJ

  12. #12
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    18,367

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by WuxiaMaster View Post
    I think the strongest evidence came from him thinking that he is on par with QQR (assuming he is correct).
    That wasn't YD thinking that, that was the narrator stating that. The same narrator that stated GJ =~ GWM:

    2. All evidence point to GWM being 1 tier below GJ, despite what Jinyong says (e.g. mongol camp fight)
    Yes, if you believe the narrator is wrong about GJ =~ GWM due to contrary evidence, why believe the same narrator saying QQR is 99% of a Great when there's also contrary evidence?
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    283

    Default

    Hi there, I'm from Singapore too.

    Interesting theory and I concur with you on most parts. However, how do you reconcile the fact that QQR fought GWM for a full night before losing and dying from exhaustion?

  14. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    562

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hyoyatika View Post
    Hi there, I'm from Singapore too.

    Interesting theory and I concur with you on most parts. However, how do you reconcile the fact that QQR fought GWM for a full night before losing and dying from exhaustion?
    that scene makes QQR nearly on par with GWM, then GWM also nearly as strong as Yang Guo in the battle of xiangyang , so the conclusion is QQR <= Yang Guo by inch margin only? but QQR once beaten by Yang Guo with huge margin...
    that make me headache

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    428

    Default

    PJ - Oh if it was by the narrator, then yes, that whole point is invalid.

    Since QQR vs GWM fight didn't happen on screen, it's hard to judge. There could be lot of chasing around (QQR had very good qinggong) and short skirmishes rather than a straight up continuous 24 hours fight.

    It's less accurate to compare pre and post 16 fights. In YG fight with QQR, he had the HIS which gave him a huge boast. In Post 16, YG was able to beat GWM even without HIS.

  16. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Posts
    443

    Default

    Still it's hard to believe YD < Greats..

  17. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    283

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    Still it's hard to believe YD < Greats..
    Why not? If anything, it is the most believable.

    1. If any of the Greats could truly give up on vying to be number 1, it would be the enlightened YD.

    2. YD had to quell the violent nature of QQR. Plausible that they both refrained from martial arts for a period of time until QQR's temper mellowed.

    3. YD was the only Great with an alternate goal in life-Buddhism. The other Greats could all focus on martial arts.

    4. YD's love towards martial arts apparently dip a lot after the Yinggu incident.

  18. #18
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Posts
    443

    Default

    You might be right but even if he's "weaker" than Greats it's quite "direspected" to put him in the same tier with QQR..

  19. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Posts
    443

    Default

    Conclusion:


    Aside from "author intention", there is no actual on screen evidence that Yideng is on par with the other Greats. The only 2 chars he fought with in the whole condor series are QQR and GWM, and we know the performance of these 2 guys.

    I would argue that Yideng might actually be closer to QQR LV rather than the 3 other Greats.
    ....
    But at least YG twice notice that his "strenght" stronger than Greats (and QQR)..

  20. #20
    Senior Member CancerLuna's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    334

    Default

    > I would argue that Yideng might actually be closer to QQR LV rather than the 3 other Greats.

    I think this is the biggest thing I have an issue with. That's already making a few mental jumps to think QQR is significantly below the Greats in the first place. They're all extremely close. I wouldn't be surprised if the gap between QQR and YD is smaller than the gap between any individual Great. (How likely is every Great *exactly* at parity?)

    So it could be true that YD is closer to QQR than the other greats but I think it's missing the point that they're all pretty darn close. E.g. life or death match may be half a stance of victory.

    You can explain away YG vs * (in terms of number of stances/etc) by just assuming YG is just superior to *all* the Greats in 1v1 combat after he attains the HIS. (In terms of storytelling, it makes sense to me. YG discovers ultra elite MA by legendary figure *only* to be better than QQR/YD/GWM but conveniently still worse than GJ/ZBT/HYS/etc* using that same ultra elite MA?

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 13
    Last Post: 07-13-17, 02:58 PM
  2. Are the martial arts getting weaker and weaker?
    By darkshineknight in forum Wuxia Fiction
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 03-14-13, 02:54 AM
  3. WCY was only slightly better than the other Greats
    By 东邪黄药师 in forum Wuxia Fiction
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 07-09-11, 01:23 PM
  4. Replies: 6
    Last Post: 10-29-09, 06:07 AM
  5. Replies: 31
    Last Post: 04-03-08, 09:38 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •