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Thread: Could Ming Sect have defended against 6 Sects attack?

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    Default Could Ming Sect have defended against 6 Sects attack?

    Assume Cheng Kun & Zhang Wu Ji play no role in the entire arc.

    Could Ming Sect have defended itself from the 6 sect attack?

    1) Yang Xiao VS Mie Jue?

    2) White Eagle + Yin Ye Wang VS 5 Wudang Swordmen?

    3) Green Bat VS 2 Shaolin Monks (Kong Zhi, Kong Xing)?

    4) 5 San Ren VS Kunlun, Kongdong and Huashan leaders?

    I think Yang Xiao could definitely beat Mie Jue, but not before his teammates lose the 3 other battles.

    It seems that Ming Sect stands little chance even if all the existing members were at 100%.

    ...

    Now, if the full party (2 Envoys + 4 Guardians, esp Fan Yao and Xie Xun) were around, it might be different.

    They could stand a good chance of winning (albeit with heavy casualties)
    Last edited by WuxiaMaster; 03-15-19 at 09:24 PM.

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    Yeeep if Ming Jiao was "full team" I think they have a good chance and yeah don't forget The 5 Flag Leader since they seem quite powerful..

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    This is a good topic. I think without the inner fighting, they could have. With Fan Yao, Xie Xun and Daysi, they definitely could have easily fended off the attack. It would never have come to the one-on-one battle. The Ming sect had all the tactical advantages, from the treacherous mountains to the semi-military training (the 5 flags) that would come in very handy in full-scale battles like this one. The 6 sects would have to fight uphill the entire time, with the 5 flags hurling huge wooden logs, rocks and raining acids, burning oils on them. The 6 sects don't even have one halfway decent military tactician among them. They would have no idea how to deal with an army (albeit a semi-trained one).

    On the martial arts side, if they had Fan Yao and Xie Xun, it would be very even.

    1. Yang Xiao vs Miejue with Heaven Sword
    2. YTZ, Yin YeWang & WYX vs 3 Shaolin Monks
    3. Fan Yao & Xie Xun vs 5 Wudang heroes
    4. 5 San Ren vs the formation Kunlun + Huashan leaders
    5. 5 flag leaders vs Kongdong 5 elders

    They would win 1, 2, 3, lose 4 and maybe tie 5. With Daysi, they would definitely wreck the 6 sects.

    Tier 1: Yang Xiao, Miejue with Heaven Sword
    Tier 2: Fan Yao, YTZ, Kong Wen
    Tier 3: WYX, Daysi, (blind) Xie Xun, 2 Kong monks
    Tier 4: YYW, Wudang #1 (SYQ) and #2 (YLZ), Kunlun leader (the husband)
    Tier 5: 5 San Ren, Wudang #4, #6, #7, Kunlun leader (the wife), Huashan leaders
    Tier 6: 5 flag leaders, 5 Kongdong elders

    The Ming sect is stacked with top fighters. Only Miejue and Kong Wen can put up a decent challenge against Yang Xiao, Fan Yao (but they will lose eventually). Then the 4 guardians YTZ, XX, WYX, DYS would wreck the 6 sects' tier 3+4 fighters. YYW, 5 San Ren and 5 Flag leaders just need to hold off the rest of the 6 sects and wait for their top fighters.

    However, without Fan Yao, XieXun, Daysi, they would lose. YX, YTZ, WYX can take on Miejue and the 3 Kong monks. But after that, YYW, 5 San Ren would lose to the 5 Wudang heroes + Kunlun + Huashan.

    However, like I said, it wouldn't have come down to martial art fights. Ming sect's military-like training would trump it all.

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    On the martial arts side, if they had Fan Yao and Xie Xun, it would be very even.

    1. Yang Xiao vs Miejue with Heaven Sword
    2. YTZ, Yin YeWang & WYX vs 3 Shaolin Monks
    3. Fan Yao & Xie Xun vs 5 Wudang heroes
    4. 5 San Ren vs the formation Kunlun + Huashan leaders
    5. 5 flag leaders vs Kongdong 5 elders

    They would win 1, 2, 3, lose 4 and maybe tie 5. With Daysi, they would definitely wreck the 6 sects.
    ....
    Point 2 only Kongsheng and Kongxi come to Brightness Peak not 3 since Kongjian was die and Kongwen stay on the temple..

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    Eden: Great Analysis! (but I think Fan Yao should also be tier 1 )
    Western: Thanks for pointing out! I didn't remember that only 2 Shaolin monks were at the battle. Have updated the main post.

    Since Kongwen weren't there (went to verify this - Shaolin was overrun by Zhaomin largely because Kongwen was the only one left defending it), it definitely tipped the favour greatly towards Ming Sect.
    Last edited by WuxiaMaster; 03-15-19 at 01:56 PM.

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    You're right. Only KongZhi and KongXing came. All the more advantage to Ming sect as KongWen would be the 6 sects' 2nd best fighter after Miejue (with HS).

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    Yeah I'm actually a bit confused why the 5 Flags couldn't hold off the 5 Sects from coming up the mountain. They should be at least hundreds if not thousands strong, and it seemed like the 5 Sects only numbered in the hundreds with no military training. We've seen time and time again that wulin can't really compete with people in military formation once it gets into large numbers. HSDS really highlighted how useless wulin really is in the grand scheme of things despite how self important they take themselves to be.

    We didn't actually see any of the flags except the Gold though, so maybe they were disbanded until the Ming sect officially reformed under Wuji.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WuxiaMaster View Post
    [FONT=Verdana]
    1) Yang Xiao VS Mie Jue?

    2) White Eagle VS 5 Wudang Swordmen?

    3) Green Bat VS 2 Shaolin Monks (Kong Zhi, Kong Xing)?

    4) 5 San Ren/5 Xing Qi VS Kunlun, Kongdong and Huashan leaders?

    I think Yang Xiao could definitely beat Mie Jue, but not before his teammates lose the 3 other battles.

    ]
    1. YX
    2. Wudang because Yin grandpa will possibly tired in fighting all 5
    3. Shaolin because of skill-wise
    4. 5 Wanderers because fair game

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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    Yeah I'm actually a bit confused why the 5 Flags couldn't hold off the 5 Sects from coming up the mountain. They should be at least hundreds if not thousands strong, and it seemed like the 5 Sects only numbered in the hundreds with no military training. We've seen time and time again that wulin can't really compete with people in military formation once it gets into large numbers. HSDS really highlighted how useless wulin really is in the grand scheme of things despite how self important they take themselves to be.

    We didn't actually see any of the flags except the Gold though, so maybe they were disbanded until the Ming sect officially reformed under Wuji.
    I don't think the rank and file of what would become the Ming army was assembled at Gwong Ming Peak. After all, guys such as Chu Yeun Cheung, Chui Dat, and Seung Yu Chun were glaringly absent.

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    Possibly, but a bit strange. Yin Tianzheng and his sect, an outsider technically, had time to gather and get there.

    I'd actually think the rank and file members would be first to go protect the sect as they are the backbone and lack the ego of the martial artists and having joined the guild for the purpose of a more noble "for the people" type reason.

    HSDS really turned me off wulin.

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    Possibly the Ming flag role is to fight Mongols, not wulin people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WuxiaMaster View Post
    Assume Cheng Kun & Zhang Wu Ji play no role in the entire arc.

    Could Ming Sect have defended itself from the 6 sect attack?
    nope, i think they couldnt , because Ming cult had internal conflict and fought among themselves at that time, Eagle sect attacked Earth Banner for personal problem, Yang Xiao fought with Wei Yixiao and 5 wanderers for leadership, etc
    another reason is, other than the 6 major sects, on the second wave of attack, they had more than 10 minor sects attacked from 4 directions including beggar sect, so even ming cult can resisted the first wave, they wont survive for the second one

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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    Yeah I'm actually a bit confused why the 5 Flags couldn't hold off the 5 Sects from coming up the mountain. They should be at least hundreds if not thousands strong, and it seemed like the 5 Sects only numbered in the hundreds with no military training. We've seen time and time again that wulin can't really compete with people in military formation once it gets into large numbers. HSDS really highlighted how useless wulin really is in the grand scheme of things despite how self important they take themselves to be.

    We didn't actually see any of the flags except the Gold though, so maybe they were disbanded until the Ming sect officially reformed under Wuji.
    I think that just highlights how important strong leadership is. Because Yang Xiao was stuck with the inner fighting and later on Cheng Kun, the 5 flags were without a leader so their collaboration can't be very good. Besides, it's not like Yang Xiao had enough authority to order them anyway.

    And yes, I totally agree about the uselessness of Wulin against military battles. Come to think of it, has there been any point in any Jin Yong's novels where Wulin made a difference? I know Jin Yong can't change history but anytime Wulin comes up against a real army, it's a freaking wreck. Sometimes, I wonder why kings like Zhao Min's father or Wanyan Honglie even bothered dealing with Wulin. Just let them be. Just let those self-absorbed people fight among themselves to figure out the "best under universe" because we all know when it comes to national security, these self-proclaimed "gaoshou" are as dangerous as a puppy. I mean, Genghis Khan didn't give two shits about Wulin and he seemed to do OK.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EdenResident View Post
    I think that just highlights how important strong leadership is. Because Yang Xiao was stuck with the inner fighting and later on Cheng Kun, the 5 flags were without a leader so their collaboration can't be very good. Besides, it's not like Yang Xiao had enough authority to order them anyway.

    And yes, I totally agree about the uselessness of Wulin against military battles. Come to think of it, has there been any point in any Jin Yong's novels where Wulin made a difference? I know Jin Yong can't change history but anytime Wulin comes up against a real army, it's a freaking wreck. Sometimes, I wonder why kings like Zhao Min's father or Wanyan Honglie even bothered dealing with Wulin. Just let them be. Just let those self-absorbed people fight among themselves to figure out the "best under universe" because we all know when it comes to national security, these self-proclaimed "gaoshou" are as dangerous as a puppy. I mean, Genghis Khan didn't give two shits about Wulin and he seemed to do OK.
    Didn't Yang Guo and wu-lin gang managed to delay the Mongol invasion for a dozen years or so?

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    They had that one victory with the cutting off ears and burning supplies, but it was Guo Jing with real military that made a difference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EdenResident View Post
    And yes, I totally agree about the uselessness of Wulin against military battles. Come to think of it, has there been any point in any Jin Yong's novels where Wulin made a difference?
    Yeung Gor's killing of Mongke Khan delayed the fall of Seung Yeung Fortress by thirteen years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    I'd actually think the rank and file members would be first to go protect the sect...
    Quote Originally Posted by wkeej View Post
    Possibly the Ming flag role is to fight Mongols, not wulin people.
    I think wkeej nailed it. Chu Yeun Cheung, Chui Dat, and Seung Yu Chun's absence from Gwong Ming Peak was telling. Those guys weren't cowards, but there really wasn't much they could contribute in a wulin-style martial arts melee. They were far more helpful to the Ming Cult's objectives by staying in their regional posts and leading the rebel armies against the Yuan Dynasty's troops. They probably weren't even asked to come defend Gwong Ming Peak, but ordered to continue doing what they had been doing, spying on and sabotaging the Yuan authorities.

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    Duan Yu, Xiao Feng and Xu Zhu also managed to make Liao Emperor Daozong call off his invasion of Yamen Guan and the Song dynasty, although I'm not sure if such an attack actually took place historically. Of course, Mongke probably wasn't killed by Yan Guo historically either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Liew View Post
    Duan Yu, Xiao Feng and Xu Zhu also managed to make Liao Emperor Daozong call off his invasion of Yamen Guan and the Song dynasty, although I'm not sure if such an attack actually took place historically. Of course, Mongke probably wasn't killed by Yan Guo historically either.
    Nope. The real world Mongke was done in by dysentery, not by Yeung Gor.

    As for the DGSD bros: as powerful as they were, I don't think the three of them would have been able to stop a war through their martial arts prowess alone. Ultimately, Yeh Lut Hung Gei withdrew the Liao armies because he was grieving over his fallen sworn brother Siu Fung and lost the heart for an invasion.

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    It just doesn't feel that Wulin losing to military armies really makes sense at all and it seems to serve as a plot device for Jin Yong's stories. Jin Yong is rather firm about not changing history so it doesn't really matter how many powerful people are around, they can't really change the course of history.

    I think in any large scale battle for Ming Cult, their bread and butter lies in the 5 element flags. There was a section in the Lion Slaying Ceremony where Yang Xiao showed off the 5 element flags abilities and their skillsets. The stuff they did in unison and being able to function under such strict guidance and discipline made the general Wulin who are not Ming Cult crap their pants and was secretly thankful that they didn't have to deal with that. The poison projectiles formation, flamethrower formation and some of their mass trap / killing formations can wipe out large contingents of people at a time suffering no losses and there is no way the 6 major schools can deal with this kind of warfare. They have no military tacticians and don't have incredible abilities that are way better than anyone in the area.

    If the 5 flags each get backed by another couple of strong fighters and they can get their formations off, they may actually be able to wipe whoever went and attacked them without suffering much losses. The stars had to completely align in order for the 6 major clans to even get as far as they did which makes me think that they're playing an awfully large gamble with their lives. There was no way they would have had enough intel to definitively say they had the upper hand. Also Cheng Kun's sneak attack is also super fortuitous. Should the argument not have gone as heated before a report that they're under attack, Cheng Kun would have done no damage. Everyone in the room would have settled their differences temporarily and banded up to fight off everyone alongside Yin Tian Zheng.

    Conclusion: 6 major clans only stood a chance because every single star that could possibly be aligned, became aligned for them.

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