The Rehabilitation of Cheung Mo Gei's Reputation as Martial Artist Thread

[pannonian]

No. He really thought he couldn't:

If I didn't also use Dragon Claws, if I were to use another technique to win, it would be extremely difficulyt for me. Besides, the fist and palm techniques I know can't even match a 2nd or 3rd rate fighter in Shaolin, much less one of the 3 divine monks.

And Yang Guo improvised a sword technique on nothing more than whimsy, and managed to befuddle Gongsun Zhi for a while before GWM weighed in.

[tape]

Ranking Qiu Chuji around Yang Xiao level would be putting the mercs around XM elder level; overrated IMO. As good as Greats are they shouldn't be fúcking around with someone at that level just with palm winds.

Well, Kong Jian was messing around with Xie Xun like a baby and the gap between those two and the gap between a Great and XM elder shouldn't be too different. We have no real evidence of Kong Jian's level, but if he is anywhere near the other Kong monks, and inferior to the Du Monks (both are just speculations, but ones which would make sense), then he is only around 20-30% of a Great and can still do that to Xie Xun, who was never a slouch even in his younger days.

[PJ]

Most of those cases listed by Laviathan are unfair. In those fights, Wuji either had to defeat the opponents while trying to save face for them at the same time or at least not causing further conflicts, or he was just fresh out of the cave and had no martial arts to speak of (except for his vast inner energy).

What's unfair about that? It is understandable that Wuji underperformed as he did, and that he should not perform as well as GJ, YG, and XF, since they all learned MA from experts for years when they were young, while Wuji didn't (he only learned a little bit). It is totally understandable that this lack of MA instructions is a disadvantage for him.

[tape]

Agree. A lot of arguments supporting Wuji bring up his inexperience, but I don't think the Wuji bashers ever argued about his potential. He could potentially be just as good as the rest with some experience and years to practice, but as shown and at his current level, he has shown to underperform greatly.

It is nothing personal against Wuji or his peaceful nature; if he could be peaceful and kickass that would be even better, but he simply can't.

To argue that he is equal to people like Zhang Sanfeng, or Guo Jing, or Yang Guo is essentially a slap in the face to THEM. They've been training for years and have overperformed so many times, yet are only given the same amount of credit as Wuji, who is simply lacking.

[CancerLuna]

One may say training for 5 years with 9 yang is a great shortcut, but it left him crippled with other areas of combat.

It seems the ones who work the hardest for their ability are also the greatest fighters.

Xiao Feng, seen as the greatest fighter, took no shortcuts but pure training to get there.

Agree. A lot of arguments supporting Wuji bring up his inexperience, but I don't think the Wuji bashers ever argued about his potential. He could potentially be just as good as the rest with some experience and years to practice, but as shown and at his current level, he has shown to underperform greatly.

It is nothing personal against Wuji or his peaceful nature; if he could be peaceful and kickass that would be even better, but he simply can't.

To argue that he is equal to people like Zhang Sanfeng, or Guo Jing, or Yang Guo is essentially a slap in the face to THEM. They've been training for years and have overperformed so many times, yet are only given the same amount of credit as Wuji, who is simply lacking.

Edit: Great post, it's similar to LHC, he is simply behind the other protagonists in internal energy, yet he can definitely hang in just pure combat ability. Who's to say he won't grow to the level of a Great after the novels end. ZWJ, in the same way has Great Level Internal, yet in pure combat ability is lying far behind. He too can reach their level, years later.

[remixedasian]

@PJ
How is it under-performing that ZWJ manages to beat Kong Sheng at his own technique?
And as for ZWJ thinking he needed Dragon Claws, this is just like LHC thinking that LPZ far out-matched him, even though LHC later kicks YBQ's buttocks.

我若非也以龙爪手与他对攻，要以别的拳法取胜，确也当真十分艰难。何况我所学过的拳法掌法，比之少林派中得 二三流人物尚且不如，怎及得上这位少林三大神僧之一的空性大师？

If I didn't also use Dragon Claws, if I were to use another technique to win, it would be extremely difficulyt for me. Besides, the fist and palm techniques I know can't even match a 2nd or 3rd rate fighter in Shaolin, much less one of the 3 divine monks.

First off, you translate 拳法 to technique (suggesting that all of ZWJ's techniques are inferior), when more accurately, it should be boxing/fist technique. I found a quote that ZWJ thinks he can easily kill Kong Sheng, but doesn't to prevent enmity and to save Shaolin's face. This is just the type of heroic thing GJ might do. Would you rather have ZWJ kill Kong Sheng in a couple of moves? People like that are called villains.

Also, shouldn't ZWJ be over-performing since his fist/palm techniques don't even match up to a 2nd or 3rd rate fighter, yet he beats 1 of the 3 divine monks?

CH 21:

Kong Sheng thought, “This kid only has great lightness kung fu and
great agility. That’s why he can avoid my strikes. But if we truly stop and fight, I doubt he can handle twelve strikes of my Dragon Claws.” Zhang WuJi by now had already figured out the workings of the Dragon Claw. He found no weaknesses, but Qian Kun Da Nuo Yi can create weaknesses from any type of forms. He thought, “At this time, I can easily kill him. But Shaolin has always held a great reputation, and this monk is one of the three most important people in Shaolin. If I beat him today, where is the face for Shaolin? [/B]Yet it’s impossible to simply make him back down willingly. His kung fu, after all, is much better than the Kong Dong elders.”

@PJ
I guess you didn't read Meh's refutation of Lav's points?
Besides, 9-14 are talking about the SAME 3 Persians. Which ZWJ easily avenged later. In comparison, HYS could not defeat the Quanzhen 7's formation. He pondered upon it much later and found out how to break it. Yet, as soon as GJ stepped in, he could not take it. In the end he withdraws because he does not want to kill GJ. According to your view, would HYS be an under-performer either because he can't defeat the formation, or he is an under-performer because he can but he's soft?

An additional 3-4 of Lav's points are saying ZWJ had to learn X to beat Y.
That's like saying GJ sucks because he had to learn XL18Z to beat anybody.
I guess ZSF is an under-performer b/c he had to learn a few moves from Yang Guo and the arhat dolls to fight He Zudao, despite having higher internal?

Why compare ZWJ while he was learning his martial arts to GJ/YG/XF in their primes?
If you want to compare, compare ZWJ at the end of the novel with those guys.

Here's Meh's refutations:

1. He had to defeat Kong Zhi w/o Shaolin losing face. He was in a "resolve the misunderstanding" mode, not "I want to kill you" mode. He believed he would've easily killed Kong Zhi quite early in the fight. So Dragon Claws was completely unnecessary.

2. Well, Huang YaoShi couldn't break through the Big Dipper Formation despite being a much better fighter than the 7 Quan Zhen Priests. I've never heard this being a strike against him as a "good fighter". Fighting against formations are a totally different thing. Even JY mentioned that the formation is inherently a superior form of martial arts compared to QKDNY. It's just that the Hua Shan/Kun Lun fighters couldn't comprehend all of it.

3. Consider ZWJ's lack of experience, lack of a mentor to teach him the intricates of fighting, and lack of a sword technique, facing the most powerful sword in the world... How could anyone be expected to understand the method to go against Mie Jue? To think that Guo Jing would somehow fare better would be ludicrous. Even with that being the case, ZWJ actually had a chance to defeat Mie Jue early in their fight. But ZWJ lacked the experience to follow up.

4. Well, he needed to use Wu Dang kung fu at the time because he was a Wu Dang representative. Besides, he couldn't defeat Ah San with just Tachi. He had to resort to QKDNY a bit.

5. Same as above. Not to mention the fact that he did not know a sword technique before then.

6. For one thing, they were the Xuan Ming Elders. Also, he didn't expect them, and wasn't prepared. Besides, they matched inner powers IIRC. So how "good" you are at fighting doesn't exactly apply here.

7. So. Didn't GJ also received many pointers throughout LOCH? Not sure how this should count against him. Otherwise, we might as well make the fight between 10yr old GJ against 10 yr old ZWJ.

8. Considering Tachi sword was his FIRST sword art, what's wrong with this statement? Guo Jing couldn't do jack before he learnt his first powerful palm technque either.

9-12. As JY pointed out, the Persian fighters used a special inner power which allowed them to concentrate it, making it thin as a needle. That's how they penetrated ZWJ's 9 Yang. They also fought incredibly in cohesion, basically as a formation. See my previous statement about going against formations.

If ZWJ is a "lesser fighter" because he couldn't defeat the 'inferior' Persians, then so should Purple Robed Dragon King. She was beaten quickly in a few moves against the same 'inferior' fighters, where as ZWJ fought to a near draw. The Wu Dang Heroes should be worst fighters in the world, because they were quickly dispatched by a "bad fighter" in ZWJ, using a "gimmicky technique" with the Persian kung fu.

13. So he fell for a trap. Since there are times when GJ fell into traps(and many times he would've fallen for traps had HR not been by his side), does this make GJ a bad fighter too?

15. So now ZWJ is expected to take on 26 fighters?

Ok... I'm too tired to respond to the rest. Honestly, I don't see how these examples show that he's a "Bad" fighter. He went through the normal progressions. He was inexperienced at first, and gradually gained experience throughout the novel. Until he reached his peak fighting against the Evil-Capturing Formation of the three Shaolin Elders. Guo Jing also went through the same progressions, until his peak in LOCH against Huang YaoShi/Hong QiGong. If ZWJ is to be ridiculed, it's his attitude towards the use of kung fu. Unless fighting the Mongols, he always thought of it as a means to save people or solve problems. Not as a tool to harm others.

[remixedasian]

BTW the argument is getting a bit heated, which is good, but just know that I'm not trying to target any posters(at times I might sound a bit rude, for which I apologize) and that I respect your opinions even if they differ drastically from mine.

[CancerLuna]

Can you please provide a quote from the novel? Either Chinese or English translation is fine.

Since most of your examples come from Yang Guo, let's see how well he fared against some people far below him:

"Originally, the three monks’ countenances were different from each other, but at this time their faces were dark red, their Buddhist robes bubbled up as if they were blown by a strong gale. On the other hand, there were not any visible changes in Zhang Wuji’s clothes. His superiority had been established by this fact alone. If he fought them one-on-one, or even one-on-two, he would have scored a victory early on."

He [Shi Shugang] thought, “Based on our true skills, even if the five of us go together, we would not be his match.” Looking at his brothers he shouted, “Brothers, stop! We have to know our limits.”

Hearing his shout, Shi Zhongmeng who was thrusting his silver pipe immediately pulled his weapon back. But the ‘Immortal of Giant Strength’ Shi Jiqiang, the reckless one of the family, didn’t listen; he thought, “What limits? Let him eat my staff first, and then we talk.” He kept attacking Yang Guo’s head with his “Elephant Opening a Mountain” stance. This attack mimicked how an elephant used its trunk. His copper staff was shaped like an elephant trunk; small in front, bigger and a little curved toward the back. His force was a mixture of ‘hard’ and ‘soft’; no less than 1000 jins strong. Yang Guo did not budge...
Shi Jiqiang used all his strength to push down. His ‘Elephant Trunk Staff’ was above Yang Guo’s head but no matter how much force Shi Jiqiang used the staff would not go down...Shi Jiqiang tried to retreat and pull his staff away but it wouldn’t budge. Shi Jiqiang tried to pull back three times but still couldn’t retrieve his staff. Yang Guo thought, “He has a powerful strength; if I don’t overcome his with my strength this man will not give in.”

So Yang Guo used his full strength, his left hand came up and grabbed the middle of the staff. The force was focused towards the middle of the staff trying to force Shi Jiqiang to release it. But Shi Jiqiang did not let go forcing the staff to bend upwards.
Yang Guo shouted out, “Good!” He used his strength and internal energy and caused the staff to bend down. But Shi Jiqiang still refused to let go.
”Crack!” the staff broke in half. Shi Jiqiang’s palms were both bleeding, but he still held the half staff in his hands...

This quoted text only shows his superiority. He wasn't even trying and its obvious if YG wants to kill him in one move, he can.

Yang Guo’s dragon roar seemed like it would never end. Everybody’s face changed color. The animals started to fall down one by one, leaving only the elephants still standing. Slowly one by one the Xishan Ghosts fell down. Next the Shi Brothers also fell down; leaving only two people barely standing up. They were Shi Shugang and Guo Xiang. Yang Guo was amazed and impressed that this sick man, Shi Shugang, was able to stay standing. He knew that if he continued he would hurt Shi Shugang even more.

In the same text, you should have bolded this

Well, Kong Jian was messing around with Xie Xun like a baby and the gap between those two and the gap between a Great and XM elder shouldn't be too different. We have no real evidence of Kong Jian's level, but if he is anywhere near the other Kong monks, and inferior to the Du Monks (both are just speculations, but ones which would make sense), then he is only around 20-30% of a Great and can still do that to Xie Xun, who was never a slouch even in his younger days.

If Kong Jian can mess around with XX this way, and he should be realistically 1/3, maybeee 1/2 a great, what's not to say GJ or someone else absolutely pulverizing XX or anyone of Yang Xiao/Fan Yao level.

Yet, ZWJ believed he need sword art to subdue Fan Yao.

Why compare ZWJ while he was learning his martial arts to GJ/YG/XF in their primes?
If you want to compare, compare ZWJ at the end of the novel with those guys.

Actually, the only comparisons that have been made are when they aren't in their prime, showcasing what they can do with so little.

The only showcases we see of ZWJ is how little he can do with so much.

That's like saying GJ sucks because he had to learn XL18Z to beat anybody.

Sorry but GJ after learning 15 or so stances of 18palms is still considered inferior to the people he fought.
After learning L/R, still inferior to greats by a lot, and still hung with them.

edit;

BTW the argument is getting a bit heated, which is good, but just know that I'm not trying to target any posters(at times I might sound a bit rude, for which I apologize) and that I respect your opinions even if they differ drastically from mine.

One of the best threads in a while

[remixedasian]

Oh, one more thing.
OYF took an entire night to come up with a way to break a single change from a single stance from Dog Beating Stick: "No Dogs Under Heaven."
If H7G had actually been using this move, he probably would have had OYF at his mercy.
Yet, we all think that OYF == H7G and we all believe H7G when he says that OYF is a genius.
Now, we give ZWJ a hard time for not being able to deal with the crazy techniques of the 3 Persians (who all were armed with Sheng Huo Ling that could deflect the Tulong Saber and Yitian Sword) and give him no credit for figuring out the techniques on the Sheng Huo Ling

The Sheng Huo Ling is far far from Dog Beating Stick, but consider that just from Xiao Zhao translating a single time, ZWJ was able to understand 50-60% of the entire Sheng Huo Ling martial arts and could easily defeat them in a few moves.
Now I would praise ZWJ for being a martial arts genius for learning and adjusting so quickly, just as he learned and used Taiji Sword and Taiji Fist.

[remixedasian]

"Originally, the three monks’ countenances were different from each other, but at this time their faces were dark red, their Buddhist robes bubbled up as if they were blown by a strong gale. On the other hand, there were not any visible changes in Zhang Wuji’s clothes. His superiority had been established by this fact alone. If he fought them one-on-one, or even one-on-two, he would have scored a victory early on."

My interpretation is that he is superior to any one of them individually, based on how each monk's faces was red and their clothes were bubbling. Not that he is superior to all three of them combined. In fact, their creepy inter-linked mind thing seems to give them a synergistic boost so that combined they're actually strong than 3 times a single Du monk. Can you give your reasoning why you think this passage shows ZWJ is superior to all three combined?

Regarding the YG passage... YG was trying to was trying to force Shi Jiqiang to release the staff. With all of his strength and internal energy, he still cannot do so, with the end result being that each had a half of the broken staff. How is this superiority, if YG can't even take a staff from a guy less than 1/5 of his ability (using fuzzy wuxia math, which I hate)

If the staff were made of sterner stuff, maybe YG and Shi Jiqiang would just be deadlocked competing strength and internal energy?
Sometimes things just don't make sense. You should take ZWJ's performance against the 3 Persians with a grain of salt, just as YG's performance against Shi Jiqiang isn't indicative of much really

So Yang Guo used his full strength, his left hand came up and grabbed the middle of the staff. The force was focused towards the middle of the staff trying to force Shi Jiqiang to release it. But Shi Jiqiang did not let go forcing the staff to bend upwards.
Yang Guo shouted out, “Good!” He used his strength and internal energy and caused the staff to bend down. But Shi Jiqiang still refused to let go.
”Crack!” the staff broke in half. Shi Jiqiang’s palms were both bleeding, but he still held the half staff in his hands...

[devilz91]

Well, Kong Jian was messing around with Xie Xun like a baby and the gap between those two and the gap between a Great and XM elder shouldn't be too different. We have no real evidence of Kong Jian's level, but if he is anywhere near the other Kong monks, and inferior to the Du Monks (both are just speculations, but ones which would make sense), then he is only around 20-30% of a Great and can still do that to Xie Xun, who was never a slouch even in his younger days.

My mind is kind of fuzzy right now so excuse me if I don't make any sense.

Kongjian was probably about 30% of a Great (slightly weaker than a Du monk), while XX was 10% during that time (closer to 15% by the end of the novel). He sneaked up on Xie Xun from behind and tapped him on the shoulder (same thing that ZSF did to an XM elder) but I don't think either of them could OHKO their opponents in a fair fight where they actually see them coming (under 10 stances likely). After they were seized on the shoulder by surprise, it was said that even if they were to not die, they would be seriously injured, yet the mercs acknowledged that YG would definitely be able to kill them in one stance. So XM elders > mercs and the gap between a Great and an XM elder is larger than the gap between Kongjian and Xie Xun. So since XM elder > merc then Wudang 7 > QZ 7.

[tape]

I'm not quite sure how you got to the end conclusions, so I'll just respond to the Kong Jian part. He snuck up on Xie Xun initially, but after tapping Xie Xun and alerting him somebody was there, he was still able to appear behind him and in front of him without Xie Xun being able to do anything about it.

Xie Xun himself thought it was obvious this person could kill him any time he wants to, even after he appeared.

Added on to the fact that by simply rebounding Xie Xun's own internal force back to him he could have likely caused mortal injury, I think Kong Jian subduing Xie Xun in 1 or 2 stances is not strange at all.

Still, this doesn't prove anything as different people have different strengths. Yang Guo's strength is in super direct and raw power, so he would be the best at one hit KOing people. Yideng or Huang Yaoshi or Zhou Botong might not be able to one hit KO them, but they are still on the same level.

Yang Guo with HIS would very likely be able to one hit KO a XM elder.

[tape]

My interpretation is that he is superior to any one of them individually, based on how each monk's faces was red and their clothes were bubbling. Not that he is superior to all three of them combined. In fact, their creepy inter-linked mind thing seems to give them a synergistic boost so that combined they're actually strong than 3 times a single Du monk. Can you give your reasoning why you think this passage shows ZWJ is superior to all three combined?

My interpretation is that they were struggling while he was in a position of power and comfortably holding on. Their faces changed color because they were straining and near the end of their power (combined or individually) while Wuji could just continue for quite a while and overcome them pretty soon. The clothing is pretty telling too, because usually that is a sign of over exertion and lacking the power to control your inner power as well as you normally could. JY often describes people's sleeves and clothes (and joints!) cracking and billowing and generally being out of control when they are using their full power. This just seems to say Wuji is not straining or using his full power yet, and he is already able to match the monks and cause them to strain. The second part of the quote I interpret as he would've easily secured a early victory if it was 1v1 or 1v2, but since it is 1v3, this victory is taking longer to secure.

[PJ]

@PJ
How is it under-performing that ZWJ manages to beat Kong Sheng at his own technique?
And as for ZWJ thinking he needed Dragon Claws, this is just like LHC thinking that LPZ far out-matched him, even though LHC later kicks YBQ's buttocks.

First of all, the monk's name is Kong Xing.

LHC did not think LPZ far outmatched him. He just thought he would have trouble taking a strike from LPZ.

First off, you translate 拳法 to technique (suggesting that all of ZWJ's techniques are inferior), when more accurately, it should be boxing/fist technique. I found a quote that ZWJ thinks he can easily kill Kong Sheng, but doesn't to prevent enmity and to save Shaolin's face. This is just the type of heroic thing GJ might do. Would you rather have ZWJ kill Kong Sheng in a couple of moves? People like that are called villains.

I agree with what you're saying. The thing is, we're not saying that ZWJ should have performed much better (given his experience at this point), or that he should have gone off like a mad man. However, it should be noted that he frequently thinks himself less than he can be, such as thinking that his boxing techniques are inferior to Kongxing, when his 9 Yang Shen Gong and Qiankun Danuoyi are far superior.

He has done this kind of thinking/panicking throughout the novel.

Also, shouldn't ZWJ be over-performing since his fist/palm techniques don't even match up to a 2nd or 3rd rate fighter, yet he beats 1 of the 3 divine monks?

Well, no, because he didn't use a 3rd rate fist/palm technique to win. He used the much superior Qiankun Danuoyi to imitate Dragon Claws.

@PJ
I guess you didn't read Meh's refutation of Lav's points?
Besides, 9-14 are talking about the SAME 3 Persians. Which ZWJ easily avenged later.

Well, yeah, after he learned their martial arts!

In comparison, HYS could not defeat the Quanzhen 7's formation. He pondered upon it much later and found out how to break it. Yet, as soon as GJ stepped in, he could not take it. In the end he withdraws because he does not want to kill GJ. According to your view, would HYS be an under-performer either because he can't defeat the formation, or he is an under-performer because he can but he's soft?

It should be clear that Quanzhen's Big Dipper Formation is far superior to the 3 Persian messengers using the 1st level of Qiankun Danuoyi.

An additional 3-4 of Lav's points are saying ZWJ had to learn X to beat Y.
That's like saying GJ sucks because he had to learn XL18Z to beat anybody.

Except Wuji already had several times more internal energy than GJ.

I guess ZSF is an under-performer b/c he had to learn a few moves from Yang Guo and the arhat dolls to fight He Zudao, despite having higher internal?

You're comparing a teenage Z3F who only learned a little bit of 9 Yang and no fighting skill prior to meeting Yang Guo, vs the adult Zhang Wuji who has mastered the entire 9 Yang and Qiankun Danuoyi and had been taught some moves by Xie Xun and Zhang Cuishan.

Not to mention, He Zudao was far superior to Z3F all things considered, whereas all of Wuji's opponents were weaker than him.

Why compare ZWJ while he was learning his martial arts to GJ/YG/XF in their primes?
If you want to compare, compare ZWJ at the end of the novel with those guys.

ZWJ at the end of the novel is not significantly better than he was, say, 10 chapters earlier. He still suffered from his weak, un-fighter-like mentality (which Zhu Yuanzhang took advantage of to get rid of him).

At the end of novel, if he ran into another opponent with weird technique, he would screw up again.

[remixedasian]

My interpretation is that they were struggling while he was in a position of power and comfortably holding on. Their faces changed color because they were straining and near the end of their power (combined or individually) while Wuji could just continue for quite a while and overcome them pretty soon. The clothing is pretty telling too, because usually that is a sign of over exertion and lacking the power to control your inner power as well as you normally could. JY often describes people's sleeves and clothes (and joints!) cracking and billowing and generally being out of control when they are using their full power. This just seems to say Wuji is not straining or using his full power yet, and he is already able to match the monks and cause them to strain. The second part of the quote I interpret as he would've easily secured a early victory if it was 1v1 or 1v2, but since it is 1v3, this victory is taking longer to secure.

Here is the next paragraph:

Zhang Wuji’s cultivation of Jiu Yang Zhen Qi was immeasurably deep to begin with. After receiving instructions from Zhang Sanfeng, he further developed his ‘chi’ with cultivation technique of Taijiquan. Right now, the longer he fought, the stronger he was. He would win an endurance race, since he could fight an all-out battle for one or two ‘sichen’ [1 sichen = 2 hours] more, waiting for the opponents to exhaust their own strength. The three Shaolin also realized that a prolonged battle would be detrimental to their side.

Nothing that says ZWJ is stronger than all 3 combined, just that he had better endurance

[devilz91]

I'm not quite sure how you got to the end conclusions

I was saying that because XM elder > merc (because I don't think a Great can OHKO a XM elder) that Wudang 7 > QZ 7 because the gap between a XM elder and a Wudang 7 should be similar to that of the gap between a merc and a Wudang 7. Of course, this is more speculation on my part.

He snuck up on Xie Xun initially, but after tapping Xie Xun and alerting him somebody was there, he was still able to appear behind him and in front of him without Xie Xun being able to do anything about it.

Xie Xun himself thought it was obvious this person could kill him any time he wants to, even after he appeared.

Doesn't say anything about whether he could kill him in one stance or not.

Added on to the fact that by simply rebounding Xie Xun's own internal force back to him he could have likely caused mortal injury, I think Kong Jian subduing Xie Xun in 1 or 2 stances is not strange at all.

Maybe, maybe not. It could very well take him 5-10 stances.

Yang Guo with HIS would very likely be able to one hit KO a XM elder.

I can't agree with this.

There's too much speculation on both sides of the argument. Looks like we won't be able to reach a consensus.

[tape]

Here is the next paragraph:

Nothing that says ZWJ is stronger than all 3 combined, just that he had better endurance

When they battle inner power, it is an endurance contest, which Wuji is better at. How does this not make him stronger if he is going to win?

[tape]

Doesn't say anything about whether he could kill him in one stance or not.

He could tap him, and when Xie Xun was aware someone was messing with him, he could still tap him without Xie Xun being able to do anything about it. The second tap is not a hidden attack anymore, and he could have killed him right there, or at least subdued him. Even Yang Guo isn't able to kill in one blow, but he sure can defeat them.

[Dirt]

Xiao Feng's fight with YTZ and MRF shows that 2 people teaming up can defeat the stronges of opponents.

I remember that Laviathan once posted about ZWJ had the potential to match Xiao Feng. Even someone as respected as himself wa pilloried by other members of this board. Th anti-ZWJ sentiment were stronger in those days. One thing that keeps me coming back here throughout the years even though we've already debated everything to death is to see how public opinion changes about things.

[devilz91]

He could tap him, and when Xie Xun was aware someone was messing with him, he could still tap him without Xie Xun being able to do anything about it. The second tap is not a hidden attack anymore, and he could have killed him right there, or at least subdued him.

He still had the element of surprise. From what I can make of the passage, the second tap was also given from behind. Sure he could subdue him, but it was only stated that he would be injured greatly, nothing about being killed.

Even Yang Guo isn't able to kill in one blow, but he sure can defeat them.

The mercs you mean? In the last chapter when Yang Guo told them he would hit them each once and let fate decide whether they live or die, both mercs thought they would not even survive one palm.