The Rehabilitation of Cheung Mo Gei's Reputation as Martial Artist Thread

[EdenResident]

XF losing to MRF + YTZ have been discussed numerous times before. Logically speaking, by the immense LV difference, XF should win without trouble. This is evident from XF VS DCQ (DCQ is even slightly ahead of MRF/YTZ).

The popular explaination are:

1) MRF + YTZ formed an extraordinary synergy. YTZ have immense internal but lacked the combat experience/technique. By having MRF 'cover' for him, he's able to utilized his internal fully to disurpt XF.

2) Plot device - a chance for DY to participate in the battle.

1) No, there's no extraordinary synergy between them, just enough to barely function as a "formation," which, otherwise, would just be 2 fighter ganging up on one.

The Du monks' formation has substantially more synergy due to the fact that 1) they're already individually better than MRF and YTZ and 2) they've spent decades to meditate to the level where they can telepathically hear each others' thought and therefore, move as one. JinYong always said that the biggest flaw of a formation is that the participants cannot move as one and therefore, in some moves, the best fighter in the formation has to scale back to the common denominator. The Du monks are able to overcome this inherent flaw by their telepathic ability and therefore, can move as one. So obviously, their formation is much better than MRF+YTZ.

Another factor you have to consider is for formations to be at it best, each participant has to abandon himself and trust that his partners will have his back, kinda like the Spartan phalanx. MRF & YTZ obviously didn't do this at all. In fact, it was MRF who slyly redirected all of XF's attacks to YTZ, which goes against the selflessness that formations need to work.

tldr; Du monks' synergy >>>>> MRF+YTZ's.

2) Of course. Then every single Wuji's "choke" could be attributed to plot device as well and we wouldn't be having this debate.

In all, if we go with "plot device" then both ZWJ and XF are not chokers.

If we only go with real events that happen, then XF is a much worse choker than ZWJ.

Don't have it both ways. Just pick one.

You see, with this logic, all the times that Wuji supposedly "chokes" can be attributed to "plot device", too

[CC]

1)
In all, if we go with "plot device" then both ZWJ and XF are not chokers.

If we only go with real events that happen, then XF is a much worse choker than ZWJ.

Don't have it both ways. Just pick one.

You see, with this logic, all the times that Wuji supposedly "chokes" can be attributed to "plot device", too

Yes, I have always argued for this. Its quite useless trying to get too scientific and analytical on fighting feats in JY novels because the plot device aspect overrides it all.

But to be a devil's advocate, to argue against your example, XF's case was 1 incident of plot device out of his many encounters. ZWJ kinda had that 'choking' plot device used against him on the majority of his encounters.

Then again, to counter-counter-argue, because JY painted himself into a corner by giving him so such an advantage in skills, that plot device was forced to be rolled out endlessly in order to have fights over 1 sentence long.

[CancerLuna]

> ZWJ tied with 3 Du Monks (60+)
> XF lost to MRF + YTZ (60)

> When the stakes are the highest, ZWJ triumphs while XF fails. XF is more of a choker to me.

That was pretty bad of XF to lose that but he has enough feats elsewhere we can safely say maybe there was something special about that Duo.

For ZWJ though, he lost twice and for that last one, he basically lost that one too if it wasn't for the fact he randomly got into an internal battle (by giving up and running from the fight essentially) that both participants didn't want to partake in.

Think YG vs ZBT. YG 'tied' with ZBT because he didn't want it to get to the 'internal duel will be life and death point' but in a real fight (now think YG vs GWM), I don't see YG having a problem winning against ZBT.

> tldr; Du monks' synergy >>>>> MRF+YTZ's.

I think you're using only synergy to say Du Monks were a better formation then MRF+YTZ. But we have to acknowledge some formations give different fighters more trouble than others.

If YTZ had internal comparable to XF and MRF had technique comparable to XF, I'd say that's a pretty decent match.

vs Du Monks (individually) with internal 1/3 of ZWJ, they'd have to rely more on their synergy to fight him.

> 2) Of course. Then every single Wuji's "choke" could be attributed to plot device as well and we wouldn't be having this debate.

If a plot device happens enough times, it just becomes plot. Man. If a XF vs MRF+YTZ "plot device" happened every single time XF fought someone, I wouldn't rate him high either.
Similarly, thanks to the SPW "plot device" of LHC being a cripple and still owning for 90% of the novel, I view him very highly.

[Ken Cheng]

Question: wasn't Kiu Fung basically stalemating the Mo Yung F'uk + Yau Tan Tze combo, and only began to suffer a disadvantage during the brief moment that Ding Chun Chou was also in the mix?

[Western Eccentric]

I see that any time I bring this up, no one ever responds.

ZWJ tied with 3 Du Monks (60+)
XF lost to MRF + YTZ (60)

When the stakes are the highest, ZWJ triumphs while XF fails. XF is more of a choker to me.

C'mon the one of Du Monk at best only 1/3 of Wuji strength while YTZ in term of internal power (maybe) "stronger" than XF and MRF don't left behind in term of "technique" (even better) so Yu can compare XF vs YTZ/MRF with Wuji vs Du Monk since XF have fought someone with "better" internal power and technique than him..

[CancerLuna]

> Question: wasn't Kiu Fung basically stalemating the Mo Yung F'uk + Yau Tan Tze combo, and only began to suffer a disadvantage during the brief moment that Ding Chun Chou was also in the mix?

IIRC, this is what happened. XF is about to fight MRF, YTZ and DCQ at the same time. XZ comes and fights DCQ. XF then fights MRF+YTZ.

He gains the upper hand in the first 10 moves but then starts struggling. It was said MRF/YTZ had the upperhand and all they had to do was outlast him (similar to ZWJ having to outlast the du monks).

But then voice of god narrator says something along the lines of (the more XF struggles, the stronger he does (something like that)).

After 100 or so stances DY interupts the fight and fights MRF. XF quickly dominates YTZ afterwards (YTZ either has higher internal or his palm has some tricky poisonous property because XF felt the sting every time).

XF then looks at DY's fight and see's tons of mistakes but is still wowed by 6msj.

If we look at ZWJ vs Du Monks in their last fight. ZWJ was said to have the (long term/endurance race) upperhand but the Du Monks still put him at a disadvantage (he became afraid/thought he was going to lose and then tried to rescsue XX instead).
In XF's fight he is said to "be in Du Monk's place", but we don't get to see if he does something XF-Like to win because DY interrupts the fight.

- We see Dy's inexperience failing to win against MRF (XF noticed DY should've won several times already when he was observing).

- We see XZ vs DCQ with mentions about how XZ should've won long ago but his inexperience/etc stopping him.

I think XF 'offscreens' his fight with YTZ but it looks to be a fighting/combat ability/experience thing too as their internal energy should be very similar to each other.
(Note ZWJ still couldn't win against 2 Du Monks instead of 3).

Now I don't necessarily believe YTZ + MRF could necessarily win against the Du Monk formation but their (XF vs ZWJ) performances in the fight weren't exactly the same.

[tape]

Then again, to counter-counter-argue, because JY painted himself into a corner by giving him so such an advantage in skills, that plot device was forced to be rolled out endlessly in order to have fights over 1 sentence long.

Where do you draw the line where it's plot device or just characterization? Wuji was meant to be overpowered but inexperienced and nice, different from Yang Guo and Guo Jing. Linghu Chong is pretty much the anti-Wuji where he is supposed to be the underdog in almost every fight but pulls it out of his ***.

It's not like JY accidentally made Wuji too powerful and was forced to have these weird fights...he planned it from the start. He can't be a genius level fighter because the plot called for it, but what's wrong with that? Not everyone should be genius level fighters.

I really don't get why it has to be plot induced when an explanation that fits within the scope of the novel [him not being a great fighter] is a totally legitimate explanation.

[WuxiaMaster]

The thing I don't get about ZWJ, is his skill LV seems to fluctuate greatly between "2 Du" and "3 Du".

If he was able to pretty much draw against 3 Du (in the first and third challenge), why wasn't he able to win against 2 during the 2nd challenge?

[EdenResident]

The thing I don't get about ZWJ, is his skill LV seems to fluctuate greatly between "2 Du" and "3 Du".

If he was able to pretty much draw against 3 Du (in the first and third challenge), why wasn't he able to win against 2 during the 2nd challenge?

Um, it's called learning, maybe? It took LHC a couple fights before he was able to defeat TianBoGuang, even with FQY's tutoring the whole way. It also took GuoJing a couple fights before he could defeat Ouyang Ke.

Besides, during the first 2 fights, other than a few early scares, ZWJ was never really in any danger. The 1st fight, he wasn't winning but he could have gotten out of the fight unscathed if he wanted. He was actually even talking while fighting, something that the monks couldn't do.

During the 2nd fight, he was clearly winning against the 2 monks if YX+YTZ would just hold out a bit longer, but he wasn't going to take the risk knowing his grandfather was running out of gas.

JY mentioned that after the 3 fights, his martial arts level went to another level. It's clearly at this point, he's become a Great.

[EdenResident]

Question: wasn't Kiu Fung basically stalemating the Mo Yung F'uk + Yau Tan Tze combo, and only began to suffer a disadvantage during the brief moment that Ding Chun Chou was also in the mix?

No. He was clearly losing and DY saw that and had to intervene by taking on MRF. DCQ was in the mix earlier but XuZhu took care of him.

[Western Eccentric]

Um, it's called learning, maybe? It took LHC a couple fights before he was able to defeat TianBoGuang, even with FQY's tutoring the whole way. It also took GuoJing a couple fights before he could defeat Ouyang Ke.

Besides, during the first 2 fights, other than a few early scares, ZWJ was never really in any danger. The 1st fight, he wasn't winning but he could have gotten out of the fight unscathed if he wanted. He was actually even talking while fighting, something that the monks couldn't do.

During the 2nd fight, he was clearly winning against the 2 monks if YX+YTZ would just hold out a bit longer, but he wasn't going to take the risk knowing his grandfather was running out of gas.

JY mentioned that after the 3 fights, his martial arts level went to another level. It's clearly at this point, he's become a Great.

Nach so how can he not "ended" fight (with defeating Du E and Du Jie) as soon as possible which I think is very easy task for someone in his level since we all know XF even with very basic Shaolin art can "play around" with Xuanan and Xuanjue..
In the very last GJ never "fight" again after he fight OYK in the inn (and lose) till the time he fight again and defeat him on Peach Blossom Isle

[CancerLuna]

The thing I don't get about ZWJ, is his skill LV seems to fluctuate greatly between "2 Du" and "3 Du".

If he was able to pretty much draw against 3 Du (in the first and third challenge), why wasn't he able to win against 2 during the 2nd challenge?

It all makes sense if you interpret it as him losing all three times.

Um, it's called learning, maybe? It took LHC a couple fights before he was able to defeat TianBoGuang, even with FQY's tutoring the whole way. It also took GuoJing a couple fights before he could defeat Ouyang Ke.

The difference is when you consider martial arts/internal whatever, TBG and OK would be rated higher than LHC/GJ.

Besides, during the first 2 fights, other than a few early scares, ZWJ was never really in any danger. The 1st fight, he wasn't winning but he could have gotten out of the fight unscathed if he wanted. He was actually even talking while fighting, something that the monks couldn't do.

Bolded, definitely not true. The monks let him off after hearing his story. He did try to run by the way and wasn't able to escape. I consider fight 1 to be a loss.

During the 2nd fight, he was clearly winning against the 2 monks if YX+YTZ would just hold out a bit longer, but he wasn't going to take the risk knowing his grandfather was running out of gas.

That just means ZWJ is somewhere along the lines of better than 2 du monks (60~ internal) but he still can't subdue them quickly. e.g. The gap between a Du Monk and 2x Wuji's grandfather is bigger than the gap between ZWJ and 2 Du Monks.

JY mentioned that after the 3 fights, his martial arts level went to another level. It's clearly at this point, he's become a Great.

Definitely got better though I'm not sure why it's clearly at Great level now when he didn't do anything worth mentioning in any of the three fights.

[PJ]

Good discussion. It's hard for me to understand the argument that Wuji doesn't underperform relative to his skills. To me it's obvious that he does, although he improves throughout the novel. There's no shame in that given his limited training and experience; it's only believable that he makes mistakes compared to more established peers in other novels. Compared to others with similar MA trajectory (Shi Potian, Duan Yu), I'd say Wuji performed well to expectation.

tldr; Du monks' synergy >>>>> MRF+YTZ's.... If we only go with real events that happen, then XF is a much worse choker than ZWJ.

That's true for that case. But that's comparing one of Wuji's better performances against probably XF's single worst performance, not exactly fair. Then again, XF has many more years of experience than Wuji, it's only expected that he has more combat competency; it would be strange if he didn't.

No, my response was that QQR/GWM aren't really chokers, and ZWJ isn't really either. They performed roughly at their level throughout, except for a few situations where freak/unusual things happened to them. Having two people combine their sword techniques into a perfectly synergistic whole isn't something most people immediately anticipate.

There are quite a few dings on GWM though:

-Not being able to subdue Li Mochou
-Having his meat snatched by ZBT
-Getting hit on the head by Ma Guangzuo (!)
-Having trouble with NMX's rock throwing
-Thinking he can't defeat 3rd gen Quanzhen disciples in ~20 stances
-etc

I don't see "normal" Greats having half the trouble he did in those situations.

[Western Eccentric]

Good discussion. It's hard for me to understand the argument that Wuji doesn't underperform relative to his skills. To me it's obvious that he does, although he improves throughout the novel. There's no shame in that given his limited training and experience; it's only believable that he makes mistakes compared to more established peers in other novels. Compared to others with similar MA trajectory (Shi Potian, Duan Yu), I'd say Wuji performed well to expectation.



That's true for that case. But that's comparing one of Wuji's better performances against probably XF's single worst performance, not exactly fair. Then again, XF has many more years of experience than Wuji, it's only expected that he has more combat competency; it would be strange if he didn't.



There are quite a few dings on GWM though:

-Not being able to subdue Li Mochou
-Having his meat snatched by ZBT
-Getting hit on the head by Ma Guangzuo (!)
-Having trouble with NMX's rock throwing
-Thinking he can't defeat 3rd gen Quanzhen disciples in ~20 stances
-etc

I don't see "normal" Greats having half the trouble he did in those situations.

It's pre 16 years Goldie not post 16 years when he can fight YD and ZBT "simultaneously" and only "throw towel" when HYS come even YG "praise" his skill in their final final duel..

[CC]

> tldr; Du monks' synergy >>>>> MRF+YTZ's.


If a plot device happens enough times, it just becomes plot. Man. If a XF vs MRF+YTZ "plot device" happened every single time XF fought someone, I wouldn't rate him high either.
Similarly, thanks to the SPW "plot device" of LHC being a cripple and still owning for 90% of the novel, I view him very highly.

I know I know. I am just saying that JY by writing himself into this corner, 'forced' ZWJ into being a choker.

As for YTZ. I am of the opinion he had GREATER internal than XF.

He had near zero palm skills while XF had the hardest yang palm skill ever and yet XF was not overwhelming him with palm blasts (not even talking about the cold part which XF felt, but when XF started using full power blasts). In order for YTZ to match a 100% power XF dragon palm, I would say its logical to say YTZ would have needed superior inner power.

I mean, if some random Huashan disciple was able to match XF's 100% effort Dragon Palm using some crappy 3rd rate palm skill, I would say such random Huashan disciple would need more inner strength than XF.

Also (2nd edition at least), the narrator basically stated that the fusion of ultra orthodox and ultra unorthodox energies in YTZ had given him unparalleled inner power so that was JY's way of telling us YTZ's inner strength was no joke.

[Western Eccentric]

Yeahhh even he can "matched" XZ palm strike at Xixia (Western Xia) when the 3 Brothers go to there to got the Princess for DY..
At that time no one have more internal force greater than XZ expect Sweeper yet YTZ can take XZ strike "head on"

[CC]

Yeahhh even he can "matched" XZ palm strike at Xixia (Western Xia) when the 3 Brothers go to there to got the Princess for DY..
At that time no one have more internal force greater than XZ expect Sweeper yet YTZ can take XZ strike "head on"

IIRC, in 1st Edition DGSD, DY and YTZ had a palm exchange late in the book and were quite equal in inner power. YTZ definitely ranks up there with the very top in terms of inner strength.

[Ken Cheng]

IIRC, in 1st Edition DGSD, DY and YTZ had a palm exchange late in the book and were quite equal in inner power. YTZ definitely ranks up there with the very top in terms of inner strength.

I had no idea that Deun Yu even knew how to use palms for fighting. I thought he was strictly limited to grabbing and pointing.

[EdenResident]

IIRC, in 1st Edition DGSD, DY and YTZ had a palm exchange late in the book and were quite equal in inner power. YTZ definitely ranks up there with the very top in terms of inner strength.

Yes, YTZ's inner power is no joke. He's like ZWJ fresh out of the cave, except even more deadly because of the worm poison. However, also just like ZWJ, he can be beaten by a decent sect leader like MieJue. Also, I don't think YTZ's inner has the force field ability like ZWJ's 9Yang so I think it's easier to defeat him. Just make sure NOT to match palms with him.

[CC]

I had no idea that Deun Yu even knew how to use palms for fighting. I thought he was strictly limited to grabbing and pointing.

That was in 1st edition only.

HOWEVER, in 2nd edition.

- He used his palms to catch XF's surprise palm strike (the one thrown at him and XZ)

- JY wrote one scene where he took down multiple of the most elite Liao Warriors with a series of flying kicks


Sure, he has great internal and 6MSJ but even late book, this guy was running face first into MRF's palms and without any studying of any basic martial arts, suddenly JY has him doing palms and chained flying kicks.


Sometimes just interpret the stories your own way. JY brain farts quite a bit on the small details imho.