The Rehabilitation of Cheung Mo Gei's Reputation as Martial Artist Thread

[remixedasian]

A big knock against Zhang Wuji is his 'lack of fighting spirit'.
The oft-touted example is his less than glorious showing against the Persian Emissaries.
However, consider that the three of them easily took down Zi Shan Long Wang/Jin Hua Popo, and outclassed Xie Xun even with the Tulong Saber.

Ch 29:

In a sudden movement, the three people's shadow swayed, and simultaneously three left hands moved to grab Jin Hua Popo. She brandished her walking stick, sweeping horizontally toward them. It was unclear how these people moved, but somehow their position changed and Jin Hua Popo's stick had struck empty air and three right hands reached out to the back of her neck; her body shook and she was thrown far away.
Based on Jin Hua Popo's martial art level, even if three highest-skilled martial art masters besieged her, they would not necessarily able to throw her out in one move like that. But, not only the footwork of these three people in white robes was very strange, their coordination was also near perfection; they were just like one person with three heads and six arms.

Xie Xun even thought that it would take the combined power of ZWJ and ZSF to defeat the 3 Emissaries. Otherwise, it might take someone who masters Jiu Yin Zhen Jing teaming up with ZWJ to do the task. (Of course, this is just Xie Xun's speculation, but from this passage you can see that beating the 3 Persians was not considered a cake-walk.)

Xie Xun's expression showed some disappointment as he said, "...If only Zhang Sanfeng Zhenren were here, then his extensive martial art skill encompassing 'yang gang' and 'yin rou' [negative and soft/flexible] could join hands with Wuji; so yin and yang complement each other, then we can defeat the Persian Three Emissaries." ...

"Laoye Zi," Zhou Zhiruo suddenly asked, "I heard a hundred years ago in the Wulin world there exist some experts who were proficient in the Jiu Yin Zhen Jing [Nine Yin Manual]; is that true?"

On Mount Wudang, Zhang Wuji had heard his Da Shifu mentioned the name Nine Yin Manual; so he knew that the founder of the Emei Pai, Guo Xiang Nuxia's father, Guo Jing, and the "Shen Diao Daxia" Yang Guo, both had mastered the martial arts from the Nine Yin Manual. ...

Xie Xun replied, "People of old did say such thing, but nobody knows the fact. Based on what I heard from the seniors, if we had someone who masters this martial art join hands with Wuji, then they would be able to defeat the Persian Three Emissaries."

I think ZWJ's 'under-performance' in this occasion is just one of those Jin Yong anomalies, rather than indicative of Zhang Wuji's abilities.

[Ken Cheng]

I don't think Cheung Mo Gei needs any apology for his "lack of fighting spirit." That was his character: it might have made him less of a fighter than some other wuxia protagonists, but his good nature served him well and enabled him to accomplish many things. He did at least as much good (if not more) for wulin as did better fighters such as Kiu Fung, Gwok Jing, and Yeung Gor.

[remixedasian]

Right, Zhang Wuji has a kind heart, and that is one of his defining characteristics. I'm just saying that most people associate ZWJ with 'choking' or 'under-performing', which I think is somewhat unfair. I also think that he was no pushover and that the likes of Qiao Feng, Guo Jing, and Yang Guo might not necessarily beat him.

[Ken Cheng]

Right, Zhang Wuji has a kind heart, and that is one of his defining characteristics. I'm just saying that most people associate ZWJ with 'choking' or 'under-performing', which I think is somewhat unfair. I also think that he was no pushover and that the likes of Qiao Feng, Guo Jing, and Yang Guo might not necessarily beat him.

Cheung Mo Gei reminds me of some successful professional sports teams: he fights down to the level of the competition. He often loses to weaker people because he doesn't go all-out.

If his opponent is somebody like Kiu Fung, Gwok Jing, etc., and he knows how powerful the opponent his, he'll fight better/harder. I don't know if he'll win, but he should provide a very good challenge.

[CancerLuna]

No other protagonist(that isn't thought of as a choker) have been shown to have trouble with people weaker than them.

Clear under-performance here.

[Ken Cheng]

No other protagonist(that isn't thought of as a choker) have been shown to have trouble with people weaker than them.

Clear under-performance here.

No other protagonist fights with this thought at the front of his mind all the time either: "Above all, try to avoid hurting/killing anyone."

I think the one time that Cheung Mo Gei truly went all-out is when he crippled Ah 2 and Ah 3. Those two were the exception because he hated them for what they had done his Mo Dong uncles and setting off the chain of events that led to his parents' suicides.

He probably also went all-out against Sing Kwun at Gwong Ming Peak, but Sing Kwun was too slick for him.

[PJ]

About the Persians taking out Jinhua Popo in one stance, later it was revealed that she purposely hid her martial arts so they would not recognize her as the Persian holy girl that they've been on the hunt for.

About Xie Xun saying that Wuji needed the help of a 9 Yin expert to win, that just meant Wuji sucked so needed help.

[CancerLuna]

No other protagonist fights with this thought at the front of his mind all the time either: "Above all, try to avoid hurting/killing anyone."

I think the one time that Cheung Mo Gei truly went all-out is when he crippled Ah 2 and Ah 3. Those two were the exception because he hated them for what they had done his Mo Dong uncles and setting off the chain of events that led to his parents' suicides.

He probably also went all-out against Sing Kwun at Gwong Ming Peak, but Sing Kwun was too slick for him.

Those were 1v1 battles where ZWJ is clearly superior to both of them by several levels. 1hitKO should have been automatic.

"The fight went on for several more stances. Zhang Wuji realized that in terms of strength, these three were far inferior to him, but their martial art was very strange, and their weapons were mysterious, almost magical. But it was their collaboration that was the most difficult to deal with; it was like a formation, but not quite a formation, like choreographed movements, but not quite like it. It was mysterious and ruthless, beyond imagination. He knew that as long as he could strike one of them, he would win the battle. But whenever he attacked one, the other two would launch a converging attack to help their comrade. Zhang Wuji kept changing his style, but throughout he was unable to break these three people’s defense; instead, he was hit twice by the Sheng Huo Ling."

Nowhere in the text did it imply ZWJ was letting up, or thinking about not hurting them, but more that he was unable to.

He knew he was superior to them, yet couldn't win.


"Unexpectedly now that he fought Huiyue Shi, a woman, he was hit repeatedly. On the second time, if not of his ‘shen gong’ reacted naturally to provide protection, his wrist would have been broken. He was wary and did not dare to attack; he stopped and focused his attention to see his opponents’ moves more clearly."

"The Sheng Huo Ling was made of special material; it was extremely hard. As Zhang Wuji was hit, his vision turned black, he almost passed out. Luckily, the divine energy [‘shen gong’] protecting his body was so profound that he managed to control his mind and he dashed three steps forward. The Persian Three Emissaries immediately rushed after him and surround him."

Good thing he has autoprotect, or else he would have been 1hitKO'ed.

[tape]

Right, Zhang Wuji has a kind heart, and that is one of his defining characteristics. I'm just saying that most people associate ZWJ with 'choking' or 'under-performing', which I think is somewhat unfair. I also think that he was no pushover and that the likes of Qiao Feng, Guo Jing, and Yang Guo might not necessarily beat him.

He's not a pushover cause he has a crapton of internal and elite techniques. He underperforms severely for what he has to work with.

[devilz91]

The fact that ZWJ eventually handled the 3 Du Monks by the end of the novel should be indicative of his poor performance in this battle.

Xie Xun even thought that it would take the combined power of ZWJ and ZSF to defeat the 3 Emissaries. Otherwise, it might take someone who masters Jiu Yin Zhen Jing teaming up with ZWJ to do the task. (Of course, this is just Xie Xun's speculation, but from this passage you can see that beating the 3 Persians was not considered a cake-walk.)

XX severely underestimates ZSF (as does everyone else in the martial world inc. his own disciples) and he would know even less of GJ or YG, so take his word with a grain of salt.

I think ZSF could probably take out those three guys by himself.

Guo Jing, and the "Shen Diao Daxia" Yang Guo, both had mastered the martial arts from the Nine Yin Manual. ...

Poor choice of words by the translator.

[Ken Cheng]

XX severely underestimates ZSF (as does everyone else in the martial world inc. his own disciples) and he would know even less of GJ or YG, so take his word with a grain of salt.

I think ZSF could probably take out those three guys by himself.

Cheung 3 Fung had a few inexplicable underperformances himself.

First, it's surprising that he didn't completely annihilate the Yeun Ming Elder who held little Cheung Mo Gei hostage (should be a piece of cake for Cheung 3 Fung, right?).

Second, I was shocked that that fake Shaolin monk got the drop on him so easily, and was able to injure the Real Man as much as he did.

[devilz91]

First, it's surprising that he didn't completely annihilate the Yeun Ming Elder who held little Cheung Mo Gei hostage (should be a piece of cake for Cheung 3 Fung, right?).

I believe it was stated that he could have done so if he wished to.

Second, I was shocked that that fake Shaolin monk got the drop on him so easily, and was able to injure the Real Man as much as he did.

There are many cases of better fighters falling victim to a sneak attack. What's more impressive IMO is the prompt OHKO he delivered afterwards.

[CancerLuna]

IIRC , he subdued him in one stance. That's as good as it gets. =O

Second, I think the monk got the drop because of the trust he had for the monk.

"It's harder to defend against a slash in the back."

[tape]

ZSF could have annihilated the XM elder if he wanted to. His hand was on his shoulder before the XM elder realized it and if he exerted his internal energy, the XM would have been crushed immediately.

In regards to the fake Shaolin monk attack, it was said that ZSF thought the monk was emotionally unstable and a bit crazy due to despair of his brothers getting murdered so ZSF didn't realize he was attacking him -- he thought he was just flailing around.

[tape]

Heh wow, three replies in the same minute !

[CancerLuna]

@tape, very interesting thread

A good way to gauge ZWJ's performance is to gauge GJ's performance against the mongolians.

Nevermind the actual skill of opposition, one of them was the same level as GJ, and he still managed.

Actually, I think the post-16 year GJ would be able to dominate the pre-16 years mongolians even with GWM in it, yet I don't see ZWJ accomplishing the same thing.

We just don't see him capping off on his experience/combat potential at novel's end.

[remixedasian]

About the Persians taking out Jinhua Popo in one stance, later it was revealed that she purposely hid her martial arts so they would not recognize her as the Persian holy girl that they've been on the hunt for.

Ah good catch PJ.

In any case, ZWJ avenges his 'under-performance' by easily dispatching the Persians later.

Suddenly he let out a clear whistle and his pair of hands, using the ‘three voids, seven solids’, reached out to grab two Sheng Huo Ling from Huiyue Shi’s hands; while with ‘something exists out of nothing’ he took away the two Sheng Huo Ling from Liuyun Shi’s hands. While the two of them were still in shock, Zhang Wuji had put the four Sheng Huo Ling into his bosom, and then separately grabbed them by the back of their necks and threw them back into their ship.
Amidst the shouting yelling of the Persians, Miaofeng Shi turned his body around trying to escape. By this time Zhang Wuji had understood clearly the basic principle of his opponents’ martial art. His comprehension of the details was somewhat limited, but Miaofeng Shi’s martial art had lost its mystery in his eyes. Once his right hand reached out, he grabbed Miaofeng Shi’s left foot and pulled him back from midair. With one hand on the Sheng Huo Ling in Miaofeng Shi’s hand, Zhang Wuji lifted up Miaofeng Shi’s body and smashed him toward the top of Zhen’E Wang’s head with the other hand.

So aside from this incident, were there any other cases of ZWJ under-performing?

[CancerLuna]

The whole book!

[PJ]

Laviathan has given us a comprehensive outline of Wuji's underperformances in the following thread, along with rebuttals and more follow-ups from both sides:

(ROCH) Gwok Jing vs. Cheung Mo Gei

[remixedasian]

We just don't see him capping off on his experience/combat potential at novel's end.

At novel's end, ZWJ broke through the 3 Du monks' formation.

Earlier, ZWJ, Yang Xiao, and Yin Tianzheng attempted to defeat the 3 Du monks. The battle came down to whether ZWJ could first beat Du E and Du Jie(who was struggling), or if Du Nan would be able to defeat Yang Xiao and Yin Tianzheng(who was struggling).

Ch 36:

If Yin Tianzheng fell, the Ming Cult lost; but if Du Jie gave up first, then the Shaolin Pai was defeated.

Du Nan by himself was superior to Yang Xiao and Yin Tianzheng combined, since Yin Tianzheng was at the verge of losing.

Now, let's put this into perspective:

Ch 10:

After Kong Wen heard this, he pondered about it for a while. Then he replied: "Shaolin has 72 martial art skills, but in all our history, not a single Shaolin disciple has been able to master more than twelve. Though Venerable Zhang's knowledge is incomparable, there are far too many martial arts that have been passed on to us by our humble school's ancestors.

Ch 36:

Kong Zhi had mastered eleven out of Shaolin Pai's seventy-two unique skills; while almost no martial art skills in the world eluded Fan Yao's knowledge, but at this moment watching Yang Xiao deftly launch his divine skills, both of them could not help but inwardly sigh with admiration.

I don't know how accurate the translation is, but given that Kong Zhi supposedly mastered 11 out of the 72 arts, he should be pretty good. Given that the Du monks were his senior, and that the abbot asked them to look over Xie Xun, I'm inclined to believe that the monks were each better than Kong Zhi, especially as from this description, even Yang Xiao seems to be better than Kong Zhi.