Results 1 to 11 of 11

Thread: Possible Plotholes & Logical Fallacies In HSDS

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    427

    Default Possible Plotholes & Logical Fallacies In HSDS

    Rewatching HSDS, there seems to be many events that does not really make sense.

    We already have separate threads for "Why Dragon Sabre and not Heavenly Sword" and "Why ZWJ insist on breaking Du Monks formation"... here are some others that I just thought of.

    Can someone try to justify some of these events:

    1. It seems that in the original novel, Xie Xun already knew ZZR is the killer right from the start. Why did he not reveal this to ZWJ?

    2. ZWJ, probably the best physician alive at that time, mistakenly thought Zhu'er died.

    3. How did Zhao Min gang manage to wipeout Shaolin when they have the 3 Du Monks? Common reason I see is because the Du Monks stayed far away from the main building. That is really a weak reason IMO. Shaolin, as the number 1 sect in Wulin, must have at least a few hundred disciples. Kong Wen the abbot is also pretty powerful on his own. Surely they could have sent a few disciples to ask the Du Monks for help?

    4. When the 6 sects were being locked up, ZM went to meet ZWJ for a drink ALONE. Now, wouldn't it be much easier for ZWJ to capture ZM as hostage to exchange for their release? Instead, he risked the lives of his wudang uncles and the whole righteous wulin, who could all definitely have perished in that battle. He wasn't even that madly in love with ZM at that point.
    Last edited by WuxiaMaster; 04-17-19 at 09:47 AM.

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    513

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by WuxiaMaster View Post
    Rewatching HSDS, there seems to be many events that does not really make sense.

    We already have separate threads for "Why Dragon Sabre and not Heavenly Sword" and "Why ZWJ insist on breaking Du Monks formation"... here are some others that I just thought of.

    Can someone try to justify some of these events:

    1. It seems that in the original novel, Xie Xun already knew ZZR is the killer right from the start. Why did he not reveal this to ZWJ?

    2. ZWJ, probably the best physician alive at that time, mistakenly thought Zhu'er died.

    3. How did Zhao Min gang manage to wipeout Shaolin when they have the 3 Du Monks? Common reason I see is because the Du Monks stayed far away from the main building. That is really a weak reason IMO. Shaolin, as the number 1 sect in Wulin, must have at least a few hundred disciples. Kong Wen the abbot is also pretty powerful on his own. Surely they could have sent a few disciples to ask the Du Monks for help?

    4. When the 6 sects were being locked up, ZM went to meet ZWJ for a drink ALONE. Now, wouldn't it be much easier for ZWJ to capture ZM as hostage to exchange for their release? Instead, he risked the lives of his wudang uncles and the whole righteous wulin, who could all definitely have perished in that battle. I wasn't even that madly in love with ZM at that point.
    1. because he doesnt have proof or evidence , and wuji is in love with zzr which will make him hard to believe
    2. yeah , sometimes i feel why dont Jin Yong just make zhu'er die forever . lets assume that was temporary death, sometimes that also happen in the real world right?
    3. yeah , in the novel, it was not stated that the 3 Du monks were also captured or not. maybe yes, maybe not. the novel only said that Zhao Min captured the monks in shaolin by using strength number . so probably they also got captured.
    4. because Zhang Wuji is a great hero, great hero wont do such a low and disgraceful things

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    4,654

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by WuxiaMaster View Post
    Rewatching HSDS, there seems to be many events that does not really make sense.

    We already have separate threads for "Why Dragon Sabre and not Heavenly Sword" and "Why ZWJ insist on breaking Du Monks formation"... here are some others that I just thought of.

    Can someone try to justify some of these events:

    1. It seems that in the original novel, Xie Xun already knew ZZR is the killer right from the start. Why did he not reveal this to ZWJ?

    2. ZWJ, probably the best physician alive at that time, mistakenly thought Zhu'er died.

    3. How did Zhao Min gang manage to wipeout Shaolin when they have the 3 Du Monks? Common reason I see is because the Du Monks stayed far away from the main building. That is really a weak reason IMO. Shaolin, as the number 1 sect in Wulin, must have at least a few hundred disciples. Kong Wen the abbot is also pretty powerful on his own. Surely they could have sent a few disciples to ask the Du Monks for help?

    4. When the 6 sects were being locked up, ZM went to meet ZWJ for a drink ALONE. Now, wouldn't it be much easier for ZWJ to capture ZM as hostage to exchange for their release? Instead, he risked the lives of his wudang uncles and the whole righteous wulin, who could all definitely have perished in that battle. I wasn't even that madly in love with ZM at that point.
    Some thoughts about your questions:
    1. XX may not have every evidence. There is no "ring theory" for XX in this series. You may possibly feel that zzr is "bad" when he asked her to kill the Mongol soldiers. Despite knowing that she respects him and is kind-hearted, she did the killing effortlessly. Even in this series, there is no evidence that XX knows that ZZR is the "bad" person.

    2. He is too emotional at that stage. When a person is "emotional", he cannot think objectively. So, he may have conclude that yin-li is dead.

    3. Shaolin has many disciples but their skills may be much lower compared to the fighters under zm. Can the Du monks leave their places?

    4. Kidnapping her would be against wulin rules. Moreover, she is a "girl" afterall. I think he did ask her to release the six sects during their conversation?

  4. #4
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    166

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wkeej View Post

    3. Shaolin has many disciples but their skills may be much lower compared to the fighters under zm. Can the Du monks leave their places?
    Wasn't it the same mob that turned up at wudang & ZWJ alone was able to drive them all away.

  5. #5
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    5

    Default

    The above are all good ones. I have a few to add:

    1. EVERYONE including martial arts experts of Shaolin mistaking Yin Susu at Longmen Biaoju for Zhang Cuishan. Not only do they look different but Zhang Cuishan has one of the most distinctive weapons (judge pen and a sword with a hook on it) and fighting styles that people can't really copy. No idea how it is possible to mistaken Yin for him.

    2. Fan Yao spending the time to turn around the buddha statues but not just wipe out the most incriminating evidence (Ming Jiao). He only has to wipe out 2 characters and potentially replace them with Mongolia or the government. He seemed to have enough time after he came back on his own to at least turn around a couple if not a few heavy statues.

    3. Close to the end when the mongolians were trying to attack Shaolin and gets repelled by an organized albeit overwhelmed Han forces with the warriors. The mountain is basically a chokepoint, why not just cut off their supplies and starve them? It's definitely advantage Mongols here.

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    4,654

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Stance View Post
    Wasn't it the same mob that turned up at wudang & ZWJ alone was able to drive them all away.
    zwj's skills are much higher. Moreover, he fought on a one-to-one basis. zm, who already have a liking for him, is unlikely to want him dead.

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    4,654

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Heromyst View Post
    The above are all good ones. I have a few to add:

    1. EVERYONE including martial arts experts of Shaolin mistaking Yin Susu at Longmen Biaoju for Zhang Cuishan. Not only do they look different but Zhang Cuishan has one of the most distinctive weapons (judge pen and a sword with a hook on it) and fighting styles that people can't really copy. No idea how it is possible to mistaken Yin for him.

    2. Fan Yao spending the time to turn around the buddha statues but not just wipe out the most incriminating evidence (Ming Jiao). He only has to wipe out 2 characters and potentially replace them with Mongolia or the government. He seemed to have enough time after he came back on his own to at least turn around a couple if not a few heavy statues.

    3. Close to the end when the mongolians were trying to attack Shaolin and gets repelled by an organized albeit overwhelmed Han forces with the warriors. The mountain is basically a chokepoint, why not just cut off their supplies and starve them? It's definitely advantage Mongols here.
    2. First, isn't the words written by FY? Leaving the words "Ming Jiao" has the purpose of "washing" the crime and hurrying them to proceed to Wudang quickly.

    3. Yes, at one point, is it abbot who noted that they will not survive long because Shaolin are surrounded by the Mongol soldiers. That's when zwj + the rest decide to proceed back to the Mongol base for a all-out fight.

  8. #8
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    121

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Stance View Post
    Wasn't it the same mob that turned up at wudang & ZWJ alone was able to drive them all away.
    The three Ahs have got to be some of the most underrated antagonists in the whole book. Per the written descriptions they (especially 1 and 2) have to be in the same ballpark as eg. Miejue or Yin Tianzheng.

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Posts
    416

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Patudo View Post
    The three Ahs have got to be some of the most underrated antagonists in the whole book. Per the written descriptions they (especially 1 and 2) have to be in the same ballpark as eg. Miejue or Yin Tianzheng.
    Well I think they are more like in YX/FY "class" instead of Mijue since Z3F admits he might not win against A San (by using Tai Chi) even when he not injury😕😕😕😕

  10. #10
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    82

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by WuxiaMaster View Post
    Rewatching HSDS, there seems to be many events that does not really make sense.

    We already have separate threads for "Why Dragon Sabre and not Heavenly Sword" and "Why ZWJ insist on breaking Du Monks formation"... here are some others that I just thought of.

    Can someone try to justify some of these events:

    1. It seems that in the original novel, Xie Xun already knew ZZR is the killer right from the start. Why did he not reveal this to ZWJ?

    2. ZWJ, probably the best physician alive at that time, mistakenly thought Zhu'er died.

    3. How did Zhao Min gang manage to wipeout Shaolin when they have the 3 Du Monks? Common reason I see is because the Du Monks stayed far away from the main building. That is really a weak reason IMO. Shaolin, as the number 1 sect in Wulin, must have at least a few hundred disciples. Kong Wen the abbot is also pretty powerful on his own. Surely they could have sent a few disciples to ask the Du Monks for help?

    4. When the 6 sects were being locked up, ZM went to meet ZWJ for a drink ALONE. Now, wouldn't it be much easier for ZWJ to capture ZM as hostage to exchange for their release? Instead, he risked the lives of his wudang uncles and the whole righteous wulin, who could all definitely have perished in that battle. He wasn't even that madly in love with ZM at that point.
    1. I addressed it in another post. One theory is that he wanted to collect more evidence because ZWJ wouldn't believe ZZR could commit such evil acts. So he played along while building a case against ZZR. Second theory is that he actually wanted ZWJ to marry ZZR because he knew if ZWJ was to pick ZM, it would be the end of his career as Ming jiao's leader. XX is not your typical hero and he wouldn't mind some unscrupulous acts, as long as the end justifies the means. Later when ZZR found out that he knew, both of them had no choice but to turn on each other.

    2. Very sloppy writing by Jin Yong.

    3. She drugged Kong Zhi & Kong Xing, used them as like a Trojan horse to get into Shaolin undetected, ambushed Kong Wen and left Shaolin no time to react. The three monks were too far away from the action to do anything. I agree that it's still a bit far-fetched and it had to be a perfect ambush by Zhao Min in order not to alert the 3 Du monks. Then again, later on, when MJ came and ZWJ did the announcing thing, the 3 Du monks should have heard it, too. I don't know. Just more sloppy writing, I guess.

    4. ZWJ would never do such a thing. He always fights fair, even against his enemies (remember that he saved the XM elders when they fell from the burning pagoda?). ZM knew that, too. Also, she did bring Fan Yao with her just in case. FY is no match for ZWJ but should be able to stall so she could get away (of course she didn't know FY was a mole yet).

  11. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    4,654

    Default

    Maybe two more, though looks trivial:
    1. What's the point of cutting XZ's chain into two when the locks are at her wrists and ankles?
    2. How does zzr carry back the "metal" plates of manual? Unless zzr has supersonic memory, she will need to bring back the metal plates, right? Alternatively, she can write super fast?

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 5
    Last Post: 04-18-19, 02:12 AM
  2. Replies: 72
    Last Post: 05-25-12, 05:27 PM
  3. Charlene&Ronald/Gillian&Alex/Yumiko&Deep?
    By Gernice in forum Entertainment News
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 02-26-05, 10:05 AM
  4. Guo Xiang (HSDS Ch 1&2 Translation)
    By Athena in forum Wuxia Translations
    Replies: 95
    Last Post: 01-07-05, 12:49 AM
  5. HSDS storyline questions(WARNING : Possible Spoilers)
    By Question2 in forum Wuxia Fiction
    Replies: 33
    Last Post: 10-28-04, 08:52 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •