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Thread: Why do people think that HYS was inferior to YG? He might even be superior to ZBT!

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    Default Why do people think that HYS was inferior to YG? He might even be superior to ZBT!

    OK, the part about ZBT was a stretch.

    But he was definitely not inferior to YG!

    There are three very clear incidents that indicate that HYS was at least as good as YG.


    1. The Huo Du assassination. HR couldn't differentiate between the two stones(?) that hit Huo Du. This indicated that HYS and YG had the same eventual end result when projecting their TZST. However, I think it is fair to believe that HYS was hiding further away from the stage than YG was. This is because he actually had the advantage of the birthday wishing as distraction (hence no need to hide further away) and that he had the eventual desire to show up (to wish GX). On the other hand, HYS, being the crazy freak he was, would likely had chosen to hide and not show up unless absolutely necessary (his intent was to protect his family and nothing else). Thus, I conclude that while the end result was the same, HYS showed more proficiency in hitting this TZST and YG fans cannot argue that they achieved the same level of profiency. Note: I'm not saying HYS is better than YG based on this because after all, TZST was not YG's signature skill.


    2. HYS and YG's palms exchange. YG was desperate to find out about his Gu Gu. There is zero doubt that he was going 100%. On the other hand, HYS was using his Luoying Shen Jian Palms, which was his signature skill, but not his best skill. In other words, HYS' secondary skill was able to match YG's masterpiece until about the maximum. On which, HYS was able to match the fully-powered palm from YG with a simple strike of TZST (written in the novel as such). HYS clearly did not struggle to stop YG's maximum.


    3. Encounters with GWM. GWM was winning against YG until he decided to save GX. Clearly, YG was still beneath GWM. On the other hand, GWM decided to surrender after HYS came in (the fight where ZBT, YD and HYS tried to corner GWM). Now, this is not a clear cut win by HYS on GWM of course. It wasn't that the 3 of them were gang-ing up on GWM, it was more of a tag-you-are-in kind of battle and GWM might had decicded that there was no way he could handle 3 such fighters in a row without exhausting himself eventually. However, it can still be noted that GWM was impressed with the power of HYS' TZST. For those who believe that HYS was the weakest, they often cite that HYS would likely have weaker internal, but this battle with GWM decisively proved otherwise. In fact, it might even suggest HYS' internal was far better than YD and ZBT! GWM had just encountered ZBT and YD and had just gotten a taste of the Greats' internal and yet he was shocked by HYS' internal! I don't buy the story that GWM was just impressed because HYS hit him with a pebble and he was shocked that a pebble can do so much damage. We know that GWM does reconaissance work and HYS was a very well known figure. GWM was not shocked because it was via TZST, he was shocked because it was so damn powerful. And guess what? GWM had crazy-*** internal so for HYS to shock him...

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    1. So you think YG's mastery of Divine Flick is as good as the creator's?

    2. This was a friendly competition. He wasn't going easy on Huang, but he wasn't trying to kill him either. And one clash between Divine Flick and Sad Palm is hardly an indication that they're totally equal.

    3. Huh? Is this based on some new info in the 3rd edition? Coz in the 2nd edition, it's pretty clear YG > GWM in the last fight. Goldie feared being subdued by YG even as YG was barehanded against his wheels.

    这时杨过单手独臂,已与法王的铜铁双轮拆到二百招以上 ... 杨过虽无兵刃,却始终不落下风。法王激斗中觉得高台微微摇晃,心知台脚为火焚毁,顷刻间便要倒塌,那时势必 和杨过、郭襄同归于尽;又见杨过掌法越变越奇,再斗百余招只怕便要为他所制
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    But I agree that JY, whether intentionally or not, gave HYS an untouchable aura in ROCH that others LOCH Greats did not receive. Whereas Yideng got beat up (willingly) by Ci'en and seemed to be losing against Goldie, HYS shines in every appearance and even startles Goldie like you said. Whereas H7G and OYF die fighting each other, HYS holds his own against every opponent including YG. It doesn't make sense that Goldie and YG are said to have both increased power by ~2x in 16 years and HYS somehow kept up with that, but I think by the end of ROCH JY just wanted to make sure his dear Greats' image didn't suffer, even if it's not logical.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    1. So you think YG's mastery of Divine Flick is as good as the creator's?

    2. This was a friendly competition. He wasn't going easy on Huang, but he wasn't trying to kill him either. And one clash between Divine Flick and Sad Palm is hardly an indication that they're totally equal.

    3. Huh? Is this based on some new info in the 3rd edition? Coz in the 2nd edition, it's pretty clear YG > GWM in the last fight. Goldie feared being subdued by YG even as YG was barehanded against his wheels.

    这时杨过单手独臂,已与法王的铜铁双轮拆到二百招以上 ... 杨过虽无兵刃,却始终不落下风。法王激斗中觉得高台微微摇晃,心知台脚为火焚毁,顷刻间便要倒塌,那时势必 和杨过、郭襄同归于尽;又见杨过掌法越变越奇,再斗百余招只怕便要为他所制
    1. No. That's why I added the whole part about YG in a better position (literally) to launch his Divine Flick.

    2. It is a good indication. It was written explicitly that HYS lightly flick and stopped YG's full-powered palms. YG was definitely going all out imho-what/who was more important than his Gu Gu? Sure he wasn't trying to kill HYS, but I could say that of HYS as well, right?

    3. 3rd edition clearly stated that GWM held the upper hand when the pillars collasped and he went to save GX, thereby giving YG the chance to strike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    But I agree that JY, whether intentionally or not, gave HYS an untouchable aura in ROCH that others LOCH Greats did not receive. Whereas Yideng got beat up (willingly) by Ci'en and seemed to be losing against Goldie, HYS shines in every appearance and even startles Goldie like you said. Whereas H7G and OYF die fighting each other, HYS holds his own against every opponent including YG. It doesn't make sense that Goldie and YG are said to have both increased power by ~2x in 16 years and HYS somehow kept up with that, but I think by the end of ROCH JY just wanted to make sure his dear Greats' image didn't suffer, even if it's not logical.
    Perhaps he did and it isn't impossible.

    First off, he might have stumbled upon some medicinal way to do it.

    Secondly, he was the only Great not to suffer any serious injury and as such, possibly kept his body in the best shape for long-term growth.

    Thirdly, he might have studied 9yin and understood it to a very deep level. Look, he's a weirdo. If he wanted, he would had found some convoluted way to reason out why his late wife would allow him to learn 9yin.

    Finally...perhaps he was just that good? Remember, his weakest disciple FMF was able to hold GWM for long enough for GJ to escape. If I recall right, FMF got away with the most lenient punishment but he was still handicapped/disabled/crippled. Based on timeline, FMF also barely received much training from HYS. This seem to suggest very strongly that Peach Blossom Isle arts are truly...insanely great.

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    do you mind to copy paste the paragraph that said goldie is in upper hand vs yang guo in 3rd edition pls?

    hey, i wonder why Yang Guo's fans does not appear on this thread? @Western Eccentric? @Cancer luna? you dare to let your Yang Guo beat down by that Huang Yaoshi?

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    Quote Originally Posted by a_tumiwa View Post
    do you mind to copy paste the paragraph that said goldie is in upper hand vs yang guo in 3rd edition pls?

    hey, i wonder why Yang Guo's fans does not appear on this thread? @Western Eccentric? @Cancer luna? you dare to let your Yang Guo beat down by that Huang Yaoshi?
    Nope..
    We almost agree that ZBT < GJ/YG and then ZBT > Old Greats (include HYS) that's also mean GJ/YG > HYS 😎😎case closed😎😎

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    I think the primary difference between Gwok Jing/Yeung Gor and the elder Greats is mostly one of stamina.

    For the first few hundred moves, you'll probably notice very little difference: it will seem like an even fight between the two combatants.

    But a few hundred strokes in, the elder Greats will start to have stamina issues and weaken, where the younger Greats are still going strong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    I think the primary difference between Gwok Jing/Yeung Gor and the elder Greats is mostly one of stamina.

    For the first few hundred moves, you'll probably notice very little difference: it will seem like an even fight between the two combatants.

    But a few hundred strokes in, the elder Greats will start to have stamina issues and weaken, where the younger Greats are still going strong.
    Stamina and physical strength issue IMHO since the Old Greats alwayz avoid to going "head on" against "aggresive" and "hard" style martial art like Dragon Palm or Sad Palm except for JLFW..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    Nope..
    We almost agree that ZBT < GJ/YG and then ZBT > Old Greats (include HYS) that's also mean GJ/YG > HYS 😎😎case closed😎😎
    Why would YG > ZBT?

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    Well I believe of Guo'er going "all out" from the beginning he would "kill" ZBT..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    Well I believe of Guo'er going "all out" from the beginning he would "kill" ZBT..
    Why? We are referencing the fight where YG was trying to get ZBT to meet Ying Gu right?

    If anything, that fight shows that ZBT had the upper hand:

    1. YG knew that he couldn't force ZBT to go. Alright, even if he could, he likely won't had done so...so this isn't my main point.
    2. ZBT wasn't going all out for sure. He was using techniques from 9yin, which we can surmise is at least half a level lower than Greats' skill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hyoyatika View Post
    Why? We are referencing the fight where YG was trying to get ZBT to meet Ying Gu right?

    If anything, that fight shows that ZBT had the upper hand:

    1. YG knew that he couldn't force ZBT to go. Alright, even if he could, he likely won't had done so...so this isn't my main point.
    2. ZBT wasn't going all out for sure. He was using techniques from 9yin, which we can surmise is at least half a level lower than Greats' skill.
    Not that I believe that Yeung Gor could easily kill Chow Bak Tung under any circumstance (y'all know me better than that), but isn't 9 Yum Jen Ging above the level of the Greats' native techniques? If 9 Yum Jen Ging were inferior, the Greats would not have coveted it as they did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Not that I believe that Yeung Gor could easily kill Chow Bak Tung under any circumstance (y'all know me better than that), but isn't 9 Yum Jen Ging above the level of the Greats' native techniques? If 9 Yum Jen Ging were inferior, the Greats would not have coveted it as they did.
    I thought we have concluded that 9yin had good internal but the external fighting techniques were inferior to the Greats' arts?

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    There are three very clear incidents that indicate that HYS was at least as good as YG.
    From reading this, it seems like these are indications they are on the same tier and not "at least as good".

    HR couldn't differentiate between the two stones(?) that hit Huo Du.
    I don't trust HR's skill to be able to accurately judge. Now if it was GJ, then you might have a point.

    This indicated that HYS and YG had the same eventual end result when projecting their TZST.
    Maybe, maybe not. Have you played those RPGs where a monster is 8000 hp and you can have two characters, one doing 99999 and the other doing 8001. It looks the same either way.

    e.g. 1 hit KO

    The degree of "overkill" is not observed so we can't tell other than that their technique can accomplish the same goal.

    However, I think it is fair to believe that HYS was hiding further away from the stage than YG was.
    I don't buy this reasoning for the same reason I could just create different rationalizations on why HYS would be closer! than YG.
    Being the eccentric guy he is, he might think, "even if I have to hide, why should I hide far away? in fact let me hide close" yada yada yada.
    My point being here, that we probably shouldn't make random assumptions about their positions, etc unless it was actually stated.

    HYS and YG's palms exchange. YG was desperate to find out about his Gu Gu. There is zero doubt that he was going 100%.
    I agree he was going 100% but he wasn't bloodlusted. Going 100% in a spar vs trying in a real fight is extremely different.
    Add in YG definitely had some PTSD (literally seeing 2 people die clashing in internal) (+ZBt spar) and it's obvious YG wasn't represented fully here (nor HYS for that matter).
    All we can glean from this exchange in my opinion is 1. HYS has no palm skills on the same level as YG and 2. in a straight clash, their two skills are about equal/draw.

    This doesn't show much other than that they're probably around the same tier (well of course! they are both Greats!). For example, GWM clashing against YG's Sad Palms is probably a draw or GWM wins but YG is still >> GWM.

    IOW, we can't glean someone's full power over 1 clash.

    Encounters with GWM. GWM was winning against YG until he decided to save GX.
    I believe this is wrong so won't bother replying.


    Secondly, he was the only Great not to suffer any serious injury and as such, possibly kept his body in the best shape for long-term growth.

    Thirdly, he might have studied 9yin and understood it to a very deep level. Look, he's a weirdo. If he wanted, he would had found some convoluted way to reason out why his late wife would allow him to learn 9yin.
    This is a lot of assumptions/guesses IMO. Nothing ever indicates HYS > ZBT and ZBT was definitely > HYS LOCH.
    Barring any additional facts, it's safer to assume IMO that ZBT kept the lead on HYS (both being crazy passionate martial arts geniuses).

    hey, i wonder why Yang Guo's fans does not appear on this thread? @Western Eccentric? @Cancer luna? you dare to let your Yang Guo beat down by that Huang Yaoshi?
    Why do you bring it up this way? I think this sets up adversarial conversations from the start. We shouldn't hide behind "oh he's a YG fan, yada yada".

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    Quote Originally Posted by CancerLuna View Post
    From reading this, it seems like these are indications they are on the same tier and not "at least as good".
    Now you are nitpicking.

    Quote Originally Posted by CancerLuna View Post




    I don't trust HR's skill to be able to accurately judge. Now if it was GJ, then you might have a point.

    Why not? HR is not the best fighter for sure, but she was intelligent and did know a lot. To an extent, she's kinda a WYY. I think we can trust HR's skill to accurate assess the situation.



    Quote Originally Posted by CancerLuna View Post
    Maybe, maybe not. Have you played those RPGs where a monster is 8000 hp and you can have two characters, one doing 99999 and the other doing 8001. It looks the same either way.


    e.g. 1 hit KO


    The degree of "overkill" is not observed so we can't tell other than that their technique can accomplish the same goal.
    Agreed, but I think there are other means of determining this. For instance, how deeply and firmly lodged the pellet was.

    Quote Originally Posted by CancerLuna View Post
    I don't buy this reasoning for the same reason I could just create different rationalizations on why HYS would be closer! than YG.
    Being the eccentric guy he is, he might think, "even if I have to hide, why should I hide far away? in fact let me hide close" yada yada yada.
    My point being here, that we probably shouldn't make random assumptions about their positions, etc unless it was actually stated.



    Well, it was actually stated that HYS couldn't stand being near and left very abruptly and quickly. If course you are right that it was an assumption on my part, but it is a fair assumption.

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    Now you are nitpicking.
    What's the nitpick?

    "At least as good" implies greater than or equal to.

    YG >= ZBT != ZBT >= YG

    This thread seems to be focused on that type of subtlety so I don't think what I'm saying is off mark.


    Why not? HR is not the best fighter for sure, but she was intelligent and did know a lot.
    To an extent, she's kinda a WYY. I think we can trust HR's skill to accurate assess the situation.
    WYY was trained to be able to disect and analyze all types of martial arts. HR is smart but her assessing the skills of people way way way stronger than her probably isn't wise.

    See QCJ, ZCS about Z3F, etc.

    Agreed, but I think there are other means of determining this. For instance, how deeply and firmly lodged the pellet was.
    Do we know this? If not, it's useless as a "for instance", in my opinion. Anyways, my example is probably more in line with "what if both pellets penetrated the body?" (e.g. overkill)

    Well, it was actually stated that HYS couldn't stand being near and left very abruptly and quickly. If course you are right that it was an assumption on my part, but it is a fair assumption.
    Sure, but that's a different situation, isn't it? It's one thing to be near and no one knows you're there and another to be near and everyone knows you're there and their attention is on you.

    it was an assumption on my part, but it is a fair assumption
    Yeah but if we're making a bunch of assumptions and then reaching a conclusion on those assumptions, it's hard not to expect the counterargument to be "you're making a bunch of assumptions".

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