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Thread: Where is Huazheng and Tolui during ROCH?

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    Default Where is Huazheng and Tolui during ROCH?

    Why did they allow Mongke and Kublai invading Seung Yeung?

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    During ROCH Tolui was dead and Huazheng life in seclusion in west region..

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    Even if they are around, did they promise GJ that they will stop attack through the Sung?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    During ROCH Tolui was dead and Huazheng life in seclusion in west region..
    Tolui should have warn Mongke and Kublai about invasion because GJ is extremely powerful and WY is extremely intelligent. It would be too dangerous for them to invade. If they did not invade, Mongke would not be killed by YG.

    Quote Originally Posted by wkeej View Post
    Even if they are around, did they promise GJ that they will stop attack through the Sung?
    I don't know whether Tolui promised GJ not to invade but Tolui would not allow his sons to invade for their own safety. Again, Mongke would not die if he did not invade. The Mongol population was very low. They can survive on their own. There was no need for them to invade. Historically, the mongol would be better off without invasion. Without invasion, Inner Mongolia would still be part of Mongolia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    During ROCH Tolui was dead and Huazheng life in seclusion in west region..
    If Huazheng still alive, I wonder how she feels about the death of Mongke and the deaths of KJ and his family. After all, life is short and very vulnerable. Why can't they live in peace and enjoy life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    I don't know whether Tolui promised GJ not to invade but Tolui would not allow his sons to invade for their own safety. Again, Mongke would not die if he did not invade. The Mongol population was very low. They can survive on their own. There was no need for them to invade. Historically, the mongol would be better off without invasion. Without invasion, Inner Mongolia would still be part of Mongolia.
    Historically, the Mongols are always penning for a permanent home. They are wanderers, moving from place to place. When looking southwards, they see the Sung people with their homes. Whether it is out of jealousy or need, they decide to attack Sung.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wkeej View Post
    Historically, the Mongols are always penning for a permanent home. They are wanderers, moving from place to place. When looking southwards, they see the Sung people with their homes. Whether it is out of jealousy or need, they decide to attack Sung.
    The Central Plains were not suitable for the Mongols' lifestyle. They wouldn't be comfortable there unless they were willing to give up much of their customary way of life. In fact, some Mongols did become sinicized, meaning that they lost their Mongol cultural identity and effectively became Chinese, culturally if not biologically. Many others, however, were not willing to give up the traditional Mongol lifestyle, and were ill-at-ease in the Central Plains.

    The Mongols found conquering territory relatively easy, but administering it was a whole different matter. Traditionally, the Mongols organized themselves as clans and tribes based largely on familial relations. Governing a population of millions of landed farmers and urban dwellers, however, was something they were completely unprepared for. Thus, they often relied on the native population for administrative matters, which made their rule all kinds of awkward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    The Central Plains were not suitable for the Mongols' lifestyle. They wouldn't be comfortable there unless they were willing to give up much of their customary way of life. In fact, some Mongols did become sinicized, meaning that they lost their Mongol cultural identity and effectively became Chinese, culturally if not biologically. Many others, however, were not willing to give up the traditional Mongol lifestyle, and were ill-at-ease in the Central Plains.

    The Mongols found conquering territory relatively easy, but administering it was a whole different matter. Traditionally, the Mongols organized themselves as clans and tribes based largely on familial relations. Governing a population of millions of landed farmers and urban dwellers, however, was something they were completely unprepared for. Thus, they often relied on the native population for administrative matters, which made their rule all kinds of awkward.
    The Mongols would be better off without invasion. The population of Mongolian were very low. With the area of current Mongolia plus Inner Mongolia were more than enough for them to live their simple life. I wonder what they were thinking when they invaded the whole world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    The Mongols would be better off without invasion. The population of Mongolian were very low. With the area of current Mongolia plus Inner Mongolia were more than enough for them to live their simple life. I wonder what they were thinking when they invaded the whole world.
    At first, "loot." Then, on Yeh Lut Chor Choi's advice, they had all this territory that was something of a nightmare to administer. Temujin and Ogodei were the only two to rule a unified Mongol Empire. Thereafter, the empire was split into four sections that essentially each went its own way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    At first, "loot." Then, on Yeh Lut Chor Choi's advice, they had all this territory that was something of a nightmare to administer. Temujin and Ogodei were the only two to rule a unified Mongol Empire. Thereafter, the empire was split into four sections that essentially each went its own way.
    They can live without all the things they loot. They don't need all the gold, silver or jade. They already have all the things they need. Since they enjoy hunting and and wandering, the land they have is way way more than enough for their low population. They should have just leave the rest of the world alone. Again, it's better for both themselves and others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    The Mongols would be better off without invasion. The population of Mongolian were very low. With the area of current Mongolia plus Inner Mongolia were more than enough for them to live their simple life. I wonder what they were thinking when they invaded the whole world.
    The Song and Mongols allied to divide the Jin Empire between them. The Jin Empire was conquered by a combination of both. Then the Song attacked the Mongols, on the grounds that the land conquered by the Mongols belonged to China. The Chinese had plenty of territory. The Mongols had kept their end of the bargain. Why did the Chinese break theirs?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pannonian View Post
    The Song and Mongols allied to divide the Jin Empire between them. The Jin Empire was conquered by a combination of both. Then the Song attacked the Mongols, on the grounds that the land conquered by the Mongols belonged to China. The Chinese had plenty of territory. The Mongols had kept their end of the bargain. Why did the Chinese break theirs?
    No doubt the Chinese made a huge mistake. If the Song did not attack the Mongols, I wonder whether the Mongols would invade the Song afterwards. At that time, it would be better off that the Mongols, Jin, Song and other countries to live in peace. It's always better to live with what you have and work hard to earn more than robbing/looting from others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    They can live without all the things they loot. They don't need all the gold, silver or jade. They already have all the things they need. Since they enjoy hunting and and wandering, the land they have is way way more than enough for their low population. They should have just leave the rest of the world alone. Again, it's better for both themselves and others.
    If we look back through the lens of history, however, it's a good thing for us who like living in this modern world that the Mongol Empire existed because without it, the globalist modern world of today might never have come into existence. The Mongol Empire directly resulted in extended cultural and economic exchange among Europe, the Middle East, and East Asia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pannonian View Post
    The Song and Mongols allied to divide the Jin Empire between them. The Jin Empire was conquered by a combination of both. Then the Song attacked the Mongols, on the grounds that the land conquered by the Mongols belonged to China. The Chinese had plenty of territory. The Mongols had kept their end of the bargain. Why did the Chinese break theirs?
    I think the Southern Sung regime had the wishful thought that they could reclaim the northern half of the territory that had once been the domain of the Northern Sung. They felt entitled to it because it had previously been their territory. There were just a few problems with that: 1. It wasn't negotiated with the Mongols before they established their alliance against the Jin. 2. The Mongols did the heavy lifting in the war against the Jins and thus, felt entitled to the lion's share of the spoils.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    No doubt the Chinese made a huge mistake. If the Song did not attack the Mongols, I wonder whether the Mongols would invade the Song afterwards. At that time, it would be better off that the Mongols, Jin, Song and other countries to live in peace. It's always better to live with what you have and work hard to earn more than robbing/looting from others.
    Probably. But don't blame the Mongols for invading Song. The Song began the war by breaking their alliance with the Mongols. Also have you heard of the War of the Heavenly Horses? It's referred to in LOCH (Guo Jing's little red horse was one of those heavenly horses). It involved the Han attacking another country to force them to hand over their horses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pannonian View Post
    The Song and Mongols allied to divide the Jin Empire between them. The Jin Empire was conquered by a combination of both. Then the Song attacked the Mongols, on the grounds that the land conquered by the Mongols belonged to China. The Chinese had plenty of territory. The Mongols had kept their end of the bargain. Why did the Chinese break theirs?
    Because like most urbanized society they think themselves superior to nomadic cultures. It was the same with the European conquest of North America, where the urbanized "civilized" people made and broke deals with the nomadic natives all in the name of civilizing them.

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