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Thread: Why did Hong Qi Gong & his successors not master the complete Dragon Subduing Palms?

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    Default Why did Hong Qi Gong & his successors not master the complete Dragon Subduing Palms?

    I read from a few sources that Hong Qi Gong did not manage to master the complete set of 18 stroke Dragon Subduing Palms.

    His successors following him mastered even lesser strokes. Until the Beggar Sect leader in HSDS, Shi Huolong, he only managed to master 12 palms out of the 18.

    I also read from some sources that the Dragon Subduing Palms were stuffed together with Wu mu yi shu into the Dragon Sabre when Huang Rong and Guo Jing forged the weapon. And yet, in some portrayals of HSDS, there was no mention of the Dragon Subduing Palms in the sabre.

    So what happened to the Dragon Subduing Palms skill after the death of Guo Jing?

    Why is it that the Dog Beating Skill and its secrets not lost, but the Dragon Subduing Palms lost?

    Does the Beggar Sect even keep a manual of both the Dragon Subduing Palms and Dog Beating Stick to pass on to future Beggar Sect leaders?

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    Hung 7 Gung had not mastered the Hong Lung 18 Palms during the time of the First Mt. Hua Sword Tournament (he was only in his thirties at the time), but had definitely mastered it by the time he first met Gwok Jing twentysomething years later.

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    Wasn't 2 of the 18 palms was missing and H7G made up the last 2?

    Also don't you need a strong internal to master it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stance View Post
    Wasn't 2 of the 18 palms was missing and H7G made up the last 2?
    In an earlier edition of the novel, I'm told. Presently, Hui Juk left behind a complete Hong Lung 18 Palms for subsequent Beggar's Union Chiefs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xiaop View Post
    Why is it that the Dog Beating Skill and its secrets not lost, but the Dragon Subduing Palms lost?

    Does the Beggar Sect even keep a manual of both the Dragon Subduing Palms and Dog Beating Stick to pass on to future Beggar Sect leaders?
    I don't think it was lost, but just later generations didn't have a strong internal to master it?

    ZWJ would have been able to master all 18 if he wanted to.
    Last edited by Stance; 01-12-20 at 10:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stance View Post
    I don't think it was lost, but just later generations didn't have a strong internal to master it?

    ZWJ would have been able to master all 18 if he wanted to.
    Does ZWJ know about the existence of Dragon Palms? The manual and 9 Yin remain with Emei?

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    Quote Originally Posted by wkeej View Post
    Does ZWJ know about the existence of Dragon Palms? The manual and 9 Yin remain with Emei?
    Hong Lung 18 Palms remained famous in wulin through the HSDS era, but its only known practitioner by that time was Beggar's Union Chief Shih For Lung, who due to inadequate/flawed inner energy methods, was never able to learn the entire set and actually crippled himself in the attempt. A manual was finally transcribed by Gwok Jing and Wong Yung at some point before their deaths and included in the package with the 9 Yum Jen Ging.

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    Was dragon palms ever executed or shown in hsds? Did zwj see it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by wkeej View Post
    Was dragon palms ever executed or shown in hsds? Did zwj see it?
    He never saw the real thing, though he sarcastically mocked the fake Shih For Lung's cowering and covering himself as "Hong Lung 18 Palms."

    I think that in the first edition of HSDS, Cheung Mo Gei actually learned a little bit of the Hong Lung 18 Palms (changed to 7 Seung Fists in later editions) from Tse Tsun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    He never saw the real thing, though he sarcastically mocked the fake Shih For Lung's cowering and covering himself as "Hong Lung 18 Palms."

    I think that in the first edition of HSDS, Cheung Mo Gei actually learned a little bit of the Hong Lung 18 Palms (changed to 7 Seung Fists in later editions) from Tse Tsun.
    Also, did ZZR return the 18 Palm Dragon manual to Beggar Union? Afterall, the skills are rightfully BU.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wkeej View Post
    Also, did ZZR return the 18 Palm Dragon manual to Beggar Union? Afterall, the skills are rightfully BU.
    Probably Cheung Mo Gei did. All the Gwok Family legacy materials were last seen with him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    He never saw the real thing, though he sarcastically mocked the fake Shih For Lung's cowering and covering himself as "Hong Lung 18 Palms."

    I think that in the first edition of HSDS, Cheung Mo Gei actually learned a little bit of the Hong Lung 18 Palms (changed to 7 Seung Fists in later editions) from Tse Tsun.
    He learnt 3 palms from Xie Xun in the first edition, with a botched version of the move 'The Proud Dragon repents'. He later saw one of the beggar clan's elders wielding it. This was replaced with Wudang Long Fist in later editions. All editions had him learning the theory of 7 Injury Fists, which he was able to wield after learning 9 Yang and QQDNY.

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    So was the Dragon Subduing Palms manual part of the secrets within the Dragon Sabre?

    If so, why did GJ and HR decide to put it in the sabre? Considering that there is an active version of the skill being practised by the recent Beggar Sect leaders?

    Also, does the Beggar Sect keep an actual manual of the skill?

    I'm assuming there is a 传功长老 who supposedly teaches skills to the Beggar Sect disciples, who ought to be the keeper of the Dog Beating Stick and Dragon Subduing Palm manuals.

    Can anyone answer?

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    Quote Originally Posted by xiaop View Post
    So was the Dragon Subduing Palms manual part of the secrets within the Dragon Sabre?

    If so, why did GJ and HR decide to put it in the sabre? Considering that there is an active version of the skill being practised by the recent Beggar Sect leaders?

    Also, does the Beggar Sect keep an actual manual of the skill?

    I'm assuming there is a 传功长老 who supposedly teaches skills to the Beggar Sect disciples, who ought to be the keeper of the Dog Beating Stick and Dragon Subduing Palm manuals.

    Can anyone answer?
    1. The 18 Dragon Palm manual is in the Heaven Sword, together with the 9 Yin manual. The book of wumu is in the Dragon Sabre. (the 3rd edition, which is not shown in the latest series, only have a map of Peach Blossom Island to show the location of these treasures).
    2. I believe GJ and HR wanted to preserve the skills for future generations. Afterall, GJ knows the 18 Dragon Palms and HR used to be Beggar Union leader.
    3. I do not think Beggar Union has a physical copy of the skills. Skills are transferred by word of mouth.

    Ken has speculated that the 18 Dragon Palm manual by GJ/HR could have been returned to Beggar Union by zwj.

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    I do wonder why any of the palms got lost at all? After all, it is not as if the palms get progressively more difficult to learn or demand increasing inner power - the different palms are simply for different situations (Guo Jing had openings at his shoulders, left thigh and right waist before learning the missing 3 palms). Guo Jing learnt 15 palms within a month, and Xu Zhu in one day - XL18Z strikes me as an 'easy to learn, hard to master' art. GJ was no inner power powerhouse at the time either (and the Quanzhen school of inner power progresses particularly slowly to start with).

    Maybe it was some over-zealous/incompetent teacher that insisted on the student mastering each palm before progressing to the next? If H7G did that, GJ probably would not have finished learning all 18 palms even in ROCH!
    Last edited by Doc Kwok; 01-16-20 at 09:41 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Kwok View Post
    I do wonder why any of the palms got lost at all? After all, it is not as if the palms get progressively more difficult to learn or demand increasing inner power - the different palms are simply for different situations (Guo Jing had openings at his shoulders, left thigh and right waist before learning the missing 3 palms). Guo Jing learnt 15 palms within a month, and Xu Zhu in one day - XL18Z strikes me as an 'easy to learn, hard to master' art. GJ was no inner power powerhouse at the time either (and the Quanzhen school of inner power progresses particularly slowly to start with).

    Maybe it was some over-zealous/incompetent teacher that insisted on the student mastering each palm before progressing to the next? If H7G did that, GJ probably would not have finished learning all 18 palms even in ROCH!
    In terms of "quantity" GJ might be below Shi Huolong from HSDS but in terms of "quality" he is far better than Shi Huolong since QZ inner power cultivation is the best internal art at that time (except 9 Yin) that's why he could mastered Dragon Palm in 1 month even H7Q also notice it's due QZ inner method which GJ learn before as his "base" internal..

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    From what I understand, the main problem for Shih For Lung was that his inner power generation techniques were an unstable mishmash.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    In terms of "quantity" GJ might be below Shi Huolong from HSDS but in terms of "quality" he is far better than Shi Huolong since QZ inner power cultivation is the best internal art at that time (except 9 Yin) that's why he could mastered Dragon Palm in 1 month even H7Q also notice it's due QZ inner method which GJ learn before as his "base" internal..
    Well GJ did suck dry the blood of the snake reared by 参仙老怪. The snake was fed with rare herbs and i think as a result the snake blood boosted GJ's internal energy by a mile.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xiaop View Post
    Well GJ did suck dry the blood of the snake reared by 参仙老怪. The snake was fed with rare herbs and i think as a result the snake blood boosted GJ's internal energy by a mile.
    Only in early edition then in 2nd/3rd edition the snake blood just give GJ "limited" restitance of poisons..

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