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Thread: Many Buddhists in DGSD; many Taoists in LOCH.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default Many Buddhists in DGSD; many Taoists in LOCH.

    DGSD seemed to feature a disproportionate number of Buddhists - a large number of Yeun-generation Shaolin monks, a half dozen Heavenly Dragon Temple monks, Hui Juk, Janitor Monk, Reverend Tze Gong, and Yellow Eye-Brows Monk, but virtually no Taoists. LOCH is the inverse: the entire Cheun Jen Sect (Taoists), but the only three Buddhist monks to show up were Reverend Burning Wood, Ling Tze Seung Yan, and South Emperor 1 Deng. I wonder why DGSD favored Buddhists and LOCH favored Taoists.

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    Assuming that both series happened during the Song Dynasty, I thought that Buddhism was popular in earlier Song and Taoism in later Song. But it seems untrue. A scan on Wiki Song Dynasty shows prominence of Buddhism, though there is Taoism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_d...and_philosophy

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wkeej View Post
    Assuming that both series happened during the Song Dynasty, I thought that Buddhism was popular in earlier Song and Taoism in later Song. But it seems untrue. A scan on Wiki Song Dynasty shows prominence of Buddhism, though there is Taoism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_d...and_philosophy
    We might need to delve deeper. The early Sung Dynasty followed the Tang Dynasty (with the short-lived Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period in between), and Tang was very heavily Buddhist-oriented. Perhaps the Buddhist slant of DGSD reflected the lingering dominance of Buddhism in the early Sung Dynasty (Northern Sung era), but the dynasty shifted more towards Taoism during the 12th Century (e.g. the 100 years that separated the DGSD period from the LOCH period).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    We might need to delve deeper. The early Sung Dynasty followed the Tang Dynasty (with the short-lived Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period in between), and Tang was very heavily Buddhist-oriented. Perhaps the Buddhist slant of DGSD reflected the lingering dominance of Buddhism in the early Sung Dynasty (Northern Sung era), but the dynasty shifted more towards Taoism during the 12th Century (e.g. the 100 years that separated the DGSD period from the LOCH period).
    Source of information?

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    Senior Member Ian Liew's Avatar
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    It also didn't help that Shaolin (the largest supplier of Buddhist characters in wuxia) suffered from the Firecracker Monk incident which severely limited their influence in wulin during LOCH.

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    Senior Member Mandred Skavenslayer's Avatar
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    Well taking into account the Title is based on Buddhist deities/celestial guardians, it stands to reason that the religion would play a prominent role.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Liew View Post
    It also didn't help that Shaolin (the largest supplier of Buddhist characters in wuxia) suffered from the Firecracker Monk incident which severely limited their influence in wulin during LOCH.
    Hi Ian, care to explain this incident?

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    Quote Originally Posted by wkeej View Post
    Hi Ian, care to explain this incident?
    Kitchen worker taught himself by watching other monks train. Then challenged and killed a senior monk. Explained by Jueyuan at the start of HSDS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pannonian View Post
    Kitchen worker taught himself by watching other monks train. Then challenged and killed a senior monk. Explained by Jueyuan at the start of HSDS.
    Heard it. As a result of this incident, people lose faith in Buddhism and embrace Taoism?

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    Quote Originally Posted by wkeej View Post
    Heard it. As a result of this incident, people lose faith in Buddhism and embrace Taoism?
    It meant Shaolin was severely shaken up for a while and had only recovered by the time of HSDS, possibly ROCH if you count Wuse's participation in Yang Guo's raid. Meanwhile, Quanzhen under Wang Chongyang and the Q7 had been going strong. Quanzhen didn't exist before WCY and went to pot after ROCH, so novels before and after that period don't mention it. That's the story internal explanation anyway.

    The story external explanation, of course, is that Qiu Chuji was involved with Genghis Khan, and LOCH is the story of Genghis Khan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wkeej View Post
    Heard it. As a result of this incident, people lose faith in Buddhism and embrace Taoism?
    Much of it depended on which faith the reigning emperor favored. If the emperor favored Buddhism (as was the case during the Tang Dynasty), then Buddhism would be in ascension. If the emperor favored Taoism (as was the case during the Sung Dynasty), then Taoism would prevail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Liew View Post
    It also didn't help that Shaolin (the largest supplier of Buddhist characters in wuxia) suffered from the Firecracker Monk incident which severely limited their influence in wulin during LOCH.
    Haha! Been lighting too many 鞭炮 during CNY?
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Much of it depended on which faith the reigning emperor favored. If the emperor favored Buddhism (as was the case during the Tang Dynasty), then Buddhism would be in ascension. If the emperor favored Taoism (as was the case during the Sung Dynasty), then Taoism would prevail.
    This is an initial thought too. But reading Wiki, it seems that Buddhism was more popular than Taoism during Sung Dynasty.

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    Senior Member Ian Liew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    Haha! Been lighting too many 鞭炮 during CNY?
    Haha, as good as name as any, I guess. It was Fire-something, for sure, all I remember was his name was For Gung Tau Tor in Canto.

    Quote Originally Posted by wkeej View Post
    Heard it. As a result of this incident, people lose faith in Buddhism and embrace Taoism?
    No, it means that during LOCH, there weren't many senior Shaolin monks left with good martial arts around - most of them died during the ... Firecracker incident. Shaolin's influence is usually linked to how many super monks you have wandering around Jianghu righting wrongs, and during this particular time they simply didn't have the ability nor desire to play a role in wulin until the end of ROCH when Reverend Wuse appeared.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Liew View Post
    Haha, as good as name as any, I guess. It was Fire-something, for sure, all I remember was his name was For Gung Tau Tor in Canto.



    No, it means that during LOCH, there weren't many senior Shaolin monks left with good martial arts around - most of them died during the ... Firecracker incident. Shaolin's influence is usually linked to how many super monks you have wandering around Jianghu righting wrongs, and during this particular time they simply didn't have the ability nor desire to play a role in wulin until the end of ROCH when Reverend Wuse appeared.
    Can share what really happened during the "Firecracker" incident?

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    Quote Originally Posted by wkeej View Post
    Can share what really happened during the "Firecracker" incident?
    Pannonian already did that in Post # 8 of this thread.

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    Yes, this is what i know. Someone was killed by jueyuan? But ian noted "most" died. Maybe i got the incident wrong in the first place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wkeej View Post
    Yes, this is what i know. Someone was killed by jueyuan? But ian noted "most" died. Maybe i got the incident wrong in the first place.
    Gok Yeun lived during the time of late ROCH. He told young Cheung Gwun Bo (Cheung 3 Fung) about the Fireworker Monk incident, but that incident occurred around seventy years before Gok Yeun told CGB the story. It happened at around the same time as the First Mt. Hua Sword Tournament, a few years before LOCH started.

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    So, one senior monk died during the "fire'" incident or a number of them died?

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    Senior Member Ian Liew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wkeej View Post
    So, one senior monk died during the "fire'" incident or a number of them died?
    My mistake. It was one senior monk, together with a few other smaller monks, and a bunch of the best fighters injured. Shaolin then closed doors and prevented monks from learning martial arts without specific permission. A small group also left Shaolin to form West Shaolin.

    https://wuxiasociety.com/the-heaven-...e-chapter-2/5/

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