The century between DGSD and LOCH: a great unexplored era of Jin Yong's universe.

[Ken Cheng]

A century passed between the end of the events depicted in DGSD and the beginning of the events depicted in LOCH. From what has been written about that period, it was a very eventful era in Jin Yong's wulin, despite no novel actually depicting the events that occurred during that century.

We know that over the course of that century, the following events happened:

Deun Yu sired a son, who would in turn sire another son who would become South Emperor Deun Chi Hing. Somehow, the art of 6 Mak Divine Sword was lost during this time because neither Deun Chi Hing nor his students ever demonstrated 6 Mak Divine Swords during LOCH or ROCH.

The Beggar's Union recovered from the loss of Kiu Fung as their Chief and the controversy that it created, and eventually entered a new era of dominance under the leadership of North Beggar Hung 7 Gung.

The Shaolin Temple endured the Fireworker Monk Incident, which caused a schism within Shaolin that essentially removed Shaolin as a major presence in wulin for the better part of a century.

Wong Seung created the 9 Yum Jen Ging. At perhaps around the same time, an imperial eunuch created the Qwai Fa Bo Deen (which would not emerge during the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY, but would come up big during SMILING PROUD WANDERER). Some years later, a monk would create the 9 Yeung Jen Ging in response to the 9 Yum Jen Ging. These new martial arts were created during the era between DGSD and LOCH, but other arts such as the Siu Yiu Sect's martial arts disappeared from wulin during this time. A few would reemerge in the timeframe of SPW in modified form. Additionally, Wong Seung's encounter with the Ming Cult brought that organization into contact with the Chinese wulin for the first (known) time.

Dook Goo Kau Bai roamed wulin and created his swordmanship philosophy, which Yeung Gor, Fung Ching Yeung, and Ling Wu Chung would utilize in various forms in the coming centuries.

Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung won the First Mt. Hua Sword Tournament, establishing his own name and those of the other Greats. At around the same time, Lam Chiu Ying founded the Ancient Tomb Sect and established its martial arts system.

On the political front, the Khitan Liao Empire fell and was replaced by the even more powerful Jurchen Jin Empire. Dali Kingdom, Tubo Kingdom, and Hsi-Hsia Kingdom survived, but were mostly irrelevant to the story of LOCH.

All in all, a very eventful century in Jin Yong's world, but one that was never chronicled in great detail.

[Suet Seung]

Out of curiosity, what # generation beggar clan chief is Qiao Feng/Xiao Feng? Because isn't Hong Qi Gong like the 30something-th beggar clan chief?

[PJ]

When Hong Qigong passed the chief title to Huang Rong, he said he was the 18th chief. Huang Rong would become the 19th.

[Ken Cheng]

Out of curiosity, what # generation beggar clan chief is Qiao Feng/Xiao Feng? Because isn't Hong Qi Gong like the 30something-th beggar clan chief?

When Hong Qigong passed the chief title to Huang Rong, he said he was the 18th chief. Huang Rong would become the 19th.

I've had a theory that Kiu Fung *might* have been the 11th Chief. One edition of LOCH featured a discussion of historic Beggar's Union Chiefs, and the description of the 11th Chief sounded like an oblique reference to Kiu Fung (something about a powerful Beggar's Union Chief who defeated many wulin warriors at a manor). As PJ noted, Hung 7 Gung was the 18th Generation Chief. Yau Tan Tze followed Kiu Fung as Chief, and...well, I don't know. Did Cheun Gwoon Ching serve as interim Chief in the novel? If he did, does that count?

[muidi]

I think QKDNY was created at that time, too.

[PJ]

Longxiang Bore Gong was also created around that time.

[Ken Cheng]

I think QKDNY was created at that time, too.

Longxiang Bore Gong was also created around that time.

Didn't know about these. I thought that both predated even DGSD by quite some time.

[muidi]

XX told ZWJ the origin of QKDNY and that it was connected to the Assassine clan. This clan was founded between 1000 till 1200, the time of Song dynasty.

[tape]

I wonder if at any time in history, the Kunlun sect ever produced an earth shattering figure. They seem to have one of the longest and unexplored histories in the JY canon.

[goodrick]

So there was a century between DGSD and LOCH and a century between ROCH and HSDS? Or did I get this wrong?

[Ken Cheng]

So there was a century between DGSD and LOCH and a century between ROCH and HSDS? Or did I get this wrong?

No, you're right. Approximately a century separated the end of DGSD and the beginning of LOCH. LOCH and ROCH (and the thirteen years between them) comprised a period of about sixty years together. Then, another century passed between the end of ROCH and the beginning of HSDS proper.

[ChanceEncounter]

ZSF/ZJB was a few years younger than 16 year old GX at the end of ROCH. He was celebrating his 90th birthday at he start of the events of HSDS proper, so it's the better part of a century. He was over 110 at the end, so the end of ROCH to the end of HSDS spanned about a century.

[jadebunny9]

I wonder if at any time in history, the Kunlun sect ever produced an earth shattering figure. They seem to have one of the longest and unexplored histories in the JY canon.

They've always seemed like a bunch of scrubs who were just there to fill out the sects.

[LuNaR]

"Additionally, Wong Seung's encounter with the Ming Cult brought that organization into contact with the Chinese wulin for the first (known) time."

what happened here? can u explain in details ken?

[Ken Cheng]

"Additionally, Wong Seung's encounter with the Ming Cult brought that organization into contact with the Chinese wulin for the first (known) time."

what happened here? can u explain in details ken?

The Ming Cult started in Persia many centuries before the Sung Dynasty; the cult was part of the Manichean religion that started in Persia, but spread to many parts of Asia (including western China).

During the later years of the Northern Sung era (e.g. the period between DGSD and LOCH), the Sung government perceived the Ming Cult as a threat because they were a bunch of outlaws. The Sung king sent Wong Seung, a high court official, to lead an army to eradicate the Ming Cult. The Ming Cult defeated the Sung army, but were unable to defeat Wong Seung personally. Wong Seung had attained powerful martial arts by applying the principles of many Taoist medicinal scrolls that he found in the Sung royal palace. This compilation of scrolls became the first volume of 9 Yum Jen Ging.

Although the Ming Cultists were unable to defeat Wong Seung, he also could not defeat them. Angry at Wong Seung for having killed a number of their people, however, some of the remaining Ming Cultists and their allies murdered Wong Seung's entire family. Enraged, Wong Seung spent the next forty years examining the weaknesses in the various Ming Cultists' martial arts and devised counters to them. These new developments became the second volume of the 9 Yum Jen Ging.

Some years after Wong Seung's passing, the 9 Yum Jen Ging came into the possession of the Cheun Jen Sect's founder, Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung. You know the rest.

[Doc Kwok]

During the later years of the Northern Sung era (e.g. the period between DGSD and LOCH), the Sung government perceived the Ming Cult as a threat because they were a bunch of outlaws.

Not really - the emperor at the time, Huizong (one of the 2 emperors later captured by the Jin), was a devout Taoist, and couldn't abide the presence of yet another religion, so he passed an edict to have them exterminated.

The Sung king sent Wong Seung, a high court official, to lead an army to eradicate the Ming Cult. The Ming Cult defeated the Sung army, but were unable to defeat Wong Seung personally. Wong Seung had attained powerful martial arts by applying the principles of many Taoist medicinal scrolls that he found in the Sung royal palace. This compilation of scrolls became the first volume of 9 Yum Jen Ging.

Huang Shang was directly responsible for compiling and organising Taoist texts into a single collection for the emperor - he didn't just find them lying around! The volumes of the 9 yin are separated by topic, not time. The first volume was more theoretical, dedicated to things like general principles, building foundations etc.

Although the Ming Cultists were unable to defeat Wong Seung, he also could not defeat them. Angry at Wong Seung for having killed a number of their people, however, some of the remaining Ming Cultists and their allies murdered Wong Seung's entire family.

The Ming cult had nothing to do with his family's death (I think this is the third or fourth time I've said this?) - it was the wulin sects that had members in the Ming cult, on their own initiative.

Enraged, Wong Seung spent the next forty years examining the weaknesses in the various Ming Cultists' martial arts and devised counters to them. These new developments became the second volume of the 9 Yum Jen Ging.

The second volume was devoted to more practical aspects, such as actual combat techniques. Both were written at the end of HS's long exile, and both were necessary in countering his enemies' techniques.

[Ken Cheng]

Not really - the emperor at the time, Huizong (one of the 2 emperors later captured by the Jin), was a devout Taoist, and couldn't abide the presence of yet another religion, so he passed an edict to have them exterminated.

Surprisingly then, perhaps, this same Sung king did not try to exterminate the Buddhists of Shaolin and other temples (or perhaps he just hadn't gotten around to it).

The Ming cult had nothing to do with his family's death (I think this is the third or fourth time I've said this?) - it was the wulin sects that had members in the Ming cult, on their own initiative.

I know; I just like to keep it simple so it's easier to explain and understand. That technicality doesn't make much material difference: it's still BECAUSE of Wong Seung's conflict with the Ming Cult that his family was killed. The identity of those who actually performed the killings is sort of academic and complicates things needlessly when explaining the situation to someone who's new to the situation.

It's kind of like, "The Union fought the Civil War to end slavery." You *know* that's not exactly true, but it's what you teach kids when they first learn about the Civil War because the details are a bit too subtle for those who are just beginning to get familiar with the situation. When they get older and have a better grasp of nuances, *then* you lay the finer details on them.

[Doc Kwok]

Surprisingly then, perhaps, this same Sung king did not try to exterminate the Buddhists of Shaolin and other temples (or perhaps he just hadn't gotten around to it).

Try Googling 'Huizong buddhism' - historically, he did attempt to suppress Buddhism during his reign, though not to the point of burning all the temples down (which would probably lead to a PR disaster he couldn't afford).

I know; I just like to keep it simple so it's easier to explain and understand. That technicality doesn't make much material difference: it's still BECAUSE of Wong Seung's conflict with the Ming Cult that his family was killed. The identity of those who actually performed the killings is sort of academic and complicates things needlessly when explaining the situation to someone who's new to the situation.

It's kind of like, "The Union fought the Civil War to end slavery." You *know* that's not exactly true, but it's what you teach kids when they first learn about the Civil War because the details are a bit too subtle for those who are just beginning to get familiar with the situation. When they get older and have a better grasp of nuances, *then* you lay the finer details on them.

I agree that it has little impact on the course of the story, and it is easier to say 'it is all the evil cult's fault', but in this case it is simply wrong. According to the little JY wrote about the Ming cult in LOCH, they were guilty of nothing more than practicing a foreign religion and defending themselves against religious persecution. Adding the slaughter of innocents to that makes a huge difference to how they are perceived.

[goodrick]

No, you're right. Approximately a century separated the end of DGSD and the beginning of LOCH. LOCH and ROCH (and the thirteen years between them) comprised a period of about sixty years together. Then, another century passed between the end of ROCH and the beginning of HSDS proper.

Thanks Ken. For some reason I always thought that the time period between DGSD and LOCH was much greater than that between ROCH and HSDS and thats how I convinced myself the huge decline in martial arts between DGSD and LOCH. But now I am lost because although the time period was same, the great levels in HSDS and ROCH is pretty much the same, no? I think Zhang Sanfeng and Zhang Wuji were just as good, if not better than the ROCH greats. How does one explain the great decline in martial arts between DGSD and LOCH then?

[Ken Cheng]

Thanks Ken. For some reason I always thought that the time period between DGSD and LOCH was much greater than that between ROCH and HSDS and thats how I convinced myself the huge decline in martial arts between DGSD and LOCH. But now I am lost because although the time period was same, the great levels in HSDS and ROCH is pretty much the same, no? I think Zhang Sanfeng and Zhang Wuji were just as good, if not better than the ROCH greats. How does one explain the great decline in martial arts between DGSD and LOCH then?

Well, between DGSD and LOCH, wulin lost the Siu Yiu Sect's Bak Ming Divine Art, Dali's 6 Mak Divine Swords, and supremo talents such as the Janitor Monk, Kiu Fung, and Mo Yung Bok. Just the loss of Bak Ming Divine Art and 6 Mak Divine Swords would knock wulin down a peg or two because those skills were superior to anything seen in the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY.

In the HSDS world, Cheung 3 Fung and Cheung Mo Gei could be considered in the same class as the ROCH Greats, but there were only two of them (as opposed to over a half dozen late in ROCH). In HSDS, however, after those two Greats, there were still many first-rate fighters such as the three Do monks of Shaolin, the Ming Cult's Guardian Lords and Heralds of Light, the Yeun Ming Elders, the Mo Dong Heroes, and Mit Jeut See Tai. At the end of ROCH, after the Greats, you had Little Dragon Girl, Wong Yung, and Yeh Lut Chai...and that was about it (there was also Kunlun Sect's Ho Juk Do, but he didn't appear until the immediate post-ROCH period depicted in the first chapters of HSDS). Slim pickings after the Five Greats at the end of ROCH, as opposed to a pretty decent "second class" in HSDS.