LOCH '82 (TVB series) revisited

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

An Lushan should not rebel as he enjoy all the privileges during the Tang Dynasty. Ten of million of people got killed because of him. Mao was NOT fit to rule after the war as we can see all his disastrous policies. Regarding the Mongols, they masacred the entire city including children just because the city did not surrender to them at first. They did this not just to China to many countries in the middle east as well. You can justisfy all their actions as you want but it is no doubt that they were very evil during the Mongol Empire.

And how many cities did the Qin, Han, Tang, Song,Ming, Romans, British, Ottoman, Macedonians, European Invaders of North & South America raise? If you call the Mongols actions evil, then you must call all of us equally evil.

[pannonian]

An Lushan should not rebel as he enjoy all the privileges during the Tang Dynasty. Ten of million of people got killed because of him. Mao was NOT fit to rule after the war as we can see all his disastrous policies. Regarding the Mongols, they masacred the entire city including children just because the city did not surrender to them at first. They did this not just to China to many countries in the middle east as well. You can justisfy all their actions as you want but it is no doubt that they were very evil during the Mongol Empire.

In the Spring-Autumn period, during sieges, people in besieged cities arranged to eat each others' children so they wouldn't have to eat their own.

[Stance]

In the past and to some extent now, with every war innocent people (including children) are killed & women are raped.

This is a fact regardless of which country was at war. Within every war, there was evil.

Looking at history, civilisations were more barbaric and the general view was either you conquer or be conquered.

[pannonian]

In the past and to some extent now, with every war innocent people (including children) are killed & women are raped.

This is a fact regardless of which country was at war. Within every war, there was evil.

Looking at history, civilisations were more barbaric and the general view was either you conquer or be conquered.

One wonders if TC thinks the Athenians and their democracy are how we should approach civilisation and ethics.

[CC]

One wonders if TC thinks the Athenians and their democracy are how we should approach civilisation and ethics.

Can we talk about Leopold and Africa now?

[pannonian]

Can we talk about Leopold and Africa now?

After Congo, the Belgian monarchy had a bad reputation among the other European monarchs. It was only their invasion by the Germans and their transformation into the "plucky Belgians" that whitewashed their reputation.

OTOH, the Athenians are still held today as the origin of everything civilised and the pinnacle of civilised government, democracy. Even though the Athenian democracy was notoriously fickle at the time, and defined the trope of conquer or be conquered.

[Trien Chieu]

Basically any part that shows the 'Evil' Mongolians in anything resembling a positive light you do not like. Just say it and be done with it.

She is hot, she is truly devoted to your son and her dad is the richest most powerful man in the land AND her dad and brother likes your son too. Most people can only dream of such a situation.

I think what Mandred is disputing (and I concur) is that you have a tendency to treat Han Chinese as individual people (rather than a mass) who make individual decisions with various consequences, but you tend to not do this for Mongolian people (whom you treat as a mass). Among ethnic Mongolians, is there no one whom you respect or admire as an upstanding individual...or even a good one with flaws, or do you believe that anyone born a Mongol is automatically predisposed to be evil?

Most of the Han soldiers were being forced into military against their will. Given a choice, most of them would rather be farmers. They did not want to rob/loot/kill people of other countries and rape young women of other countries. On the other hand, most of the young Mongol/Jurchen/Manchu men loved war. They were proud of robbing/looting other countries. They had no problem of killing the entire city including children. Of course the Han were not innocent either but the Mongol/Jurchen/Manchu were far worse.

[pannonian]

Most of the Han soldiers were being forced into military against their will. Given a choice, most of them would rather be farmers. They did not want to rob/loot/kill people of other countries and rape young women of other countries. On the other hand, most of the young Mongol/Jurchen/Manchu men loved war. They were proud of robbing/looting other countries. They had no problem of killing the entire city including children. Of course the Han were not innocent either but the Mongol/Jurchen/Manchu were far worse.

How do you know this stuff? Are there memoirs from the period that you've read?

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

Most of the Han soldiers were being forced into military against their will. Given a choice, most of them would rather be farmers. They did not want to rob/loot/kill people of other countries and rape young women of other countries. On the other hand, most of the young Mongol/Jurchen/Manchu men loved war. They were proud of robbing/looting other countries. They had no problem of killing the entire city including children. Of course the Han were not innocent either but the Mongol/Jurchen/Manchu were far worse.

Again you are showing your racist tendencies. How do you know that the nomadic people would not prefer to raise sheep/goats, breed horses and hunt game? It is a much safer life them going to war. What are you basing the idea that Han Chinese are mostly peace loving farmers from? Is it their habit to commit mass murder on unprecedented levels, or their love of poetry that glorify cannibalism?

[Stance]

Most of the Han soldiers were being forced into military against their will. Given a choice, most of them would rather be farmers. They did not want to rob/loot/kill people of other countries and rape young women of other countries. On the other hand, most of the young Mongol/Jurchen/Manchu men loved war. They were proud of robbing/looting other countries. They had no problem of killing the entire city including children. Of course the Han were not innocent either but the Mongol/Jurchen/Manchu were far worse.

It's pretty hard to read the mind of every person today let alone people that have lived 900 years ago.

For what we know, it could have been the opposite. The Mongolians only wanted to live a peaceful life, but the Hans had forced them into war and to protect themselves, the only option is to take out the Hans.


Who knows ... Nobody has live to today to tell the tale.

[Trien Chieu]

How do you know this stuff? Are there memoirs from the period that you've read?

Again you are showing your racist tendencies. How do you know that the nomadic people would not prefer to raise sheep/goats, breed horses and hunt game? It is a much safer life them going to war. What are you basing the idea that Han Chinese are mostly peace loving farmers from? Is it their habit to commit mass murder on unprecedented levels, or their love of poetry that glorify cannibalism?

It's pretty hard to read the mind of every person today let alone people that have lived 900 years ago.

For what we know, it could have been the opposite. The Mongolians only wanted to live a peaceful life, but the Hans had forced them into war and to protect themselves, the only option is to take out the Hans.


Who knows ... Nobody has live to today to tell the tale.

Race card is cheap, cheap, cheap.
The population of Mongolia back then was very low, probably less than 3 million and the military was very large so most of their young men were soldier. They lived on a large piece of land that included the current Mongolia plus Inner Mongolia. If they loved peace and preferred raising goats/sheep, breed horses and hunt game then they should not going to war. The land they had was many times more than they needed.

[pannonian]

Race card is cheap, cheap, cheap.
The population of Mongolia back then was very low, probably less than 3 million and the military was very large so most of their young men were soldier. They lived on a large piece of land that included the current Mongolia plus Inner Mongolia. If they loved peace and preferred raising goats/sheep, breed horses and hunt game then they should not going to war. The land they had was many times more than they needed.

How did you get insight into the mind of the Song soldier circa 13th century? If it's from memoirs from the period, I'd like to know. The oldest ordinary soldier's memoirs I've got is from the early 19th century, from participants in the Napoleonic wars (unless you count the last chapter of Caesar's Civil War, sometimes assumed to be by a nameless centurion).

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

Race card is cheap, cheap, cheap.
The population of Mongolia back then was very low, probably less than 3 million and the military was very large so most of their young men were soldier. They lived on a large piece of land that included the current Mongolia plus Inner Mongolia. If they loved peace and preferred raising goats/sheep, breed horses and hunt game then they should not going to war. The land they had was many times more than they needed.

Han (the race not the Dynasty) China was historically one of the largest most vertile Empire ever, but that never stopped them periodically expanding into Vietnam, Korea, Tibet and the Asian Steppes. If we view the Mongolian as war hungry barbarians based on their war efforts, then how must you view the Han Chinese.

The only one playing the Race card is you. No one has used it to defend their stance but you, no one has claimed a race is predisposed to certain characteristics but you, no one has excused any ones' action because of their race but you. So who is being cheap, cheap, cheap?

[condor hero]

One of the things that always bugged me was all that build up to the Wah San Lun Geem in part 3, but the actual depiction of it was a big let down

[Ken Cheng]

One of the things that always bugged me was all that build up to the Wah San Lun Geem in part 3, but the actual depiction of it was a big let down

It was good enough for me...we got to see Gwok Jing finally be (nearly) a peer with wulin's Greats of the era, and he had finally arrived after looking so hopeless as a martial artist just a few years earlier. Special effects were nothing groundshaking (but still a decently choreographed set of fights), but it got the job done. At least Gwok Jing got to take part in the fight; I understand that in LOCH '94, he didn't even participate.

[Trien Chieu]

Han (the race not the Dynasty) China was historically one of the largest most vertile Empire ever, but that never stopped them periodically expanding into Vietnam, Korea, Tibet and the Asian Steppes. If we view the Mongolian as war hungry barbarians based on their war efforts, then how must you view the Han Chinese.

The only one playing the Race card is you. No one has used it to defend their stance but you, no one has claimed a race is predisposed to certain characteristics but you, no one has excused any ones' action because of their race but you. So who is being cheap, cheap, cheap?

You were the one used the race card by calling me racist. I did not call you racist. I never said the Han people were perfect. Many Chinese emperors were evil as well as they forced their young man into military to invade other countries but the scale of genocide committed by them were far less than what the Mongol did. The Mongol killed about 10% of the world population including children. Yeah, I think the Mongols were the worst among all.

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

You were the one used the race card by calling me racist. I did not call you racist. I never said the Han people were perfect. Many Chinese emperors were evil as well as they forced their young man into military to invade other countries but the scale of genocide committed by them were far less than what the Mongol did. The Mongol killed about 10% of the world population including children. Yeah, I think the Mongols were the worst among all.

Racsim is defined as "the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another". And you sir has shown an abundance on this, thus making you a racist. If you think the above definition does not apply then please explain.

You excuse Han Chinese atrocities by naming individuals as "Evil" but claim Mongol atrocities are an example of their collective "Evilness", a position which you have failed to justify. As for percentages, just the An Lushan Rebellion alone killed 16% of the world population at the time and this is just one incident in just one dynasty.

[daydreamer_gal]

I realised later that this series really played up / extended many of the romance related subplots (Yang Tiexin / Bao Xiruo, Yang Kang / Mu Nianci, Guo Jing / Huazheng, even Lu Guanying / Cheng Yaojia).. and there was quite a lot of drinking over heartbreak.

The conflict between Huang Rong & Guo Jing's authority figures (the 7 Freaks, the Quanzhen priests, his mother) was also increased.

Still enjoyed the show thoroughly, though.

[Ken Cheng]

I realised later that this series really played up / extended many of the romance related subplots (Yang Tiexin / Bao Xiruo, Yang Kang / Mu Nianci, Guo Jing / Huazheng, even Lu Guanying / Cheng Yaojia).. and there was quite a lot of drinking over heartbreak.

Those scenes were milked dry.

[Ken Cheng]

Two more subplots could have been drastically scaled back without losing much quality (probably would enhance it, actually): the Luk Gwoon Ying and Ching Yiu Ga subplot at Returning Clouds Manor, and the background story of South Emperor 1 Deng, Ying Goo, and Chow Bak Tung.

These subplots were in the LOCH novel, so I wouldn't drop them altogether, but I think both of them should have been condensed and scaled back a bit. Though they weren't necessarily bothersome, they did distract from the main plot for too long.