Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 41

Thread: LOCH '82 (TVB series) revisited

  1. #1
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    23,021

    Default LOCH '82 (TVB series) revisited

    TVB's LOCH '82 series is one of (if not THE) my all time favorite wuxia adaptations, but that doesn't mean I don't have some issues with it. I haven't read the novels, so I'm not (and can't be) a stickler for accuracy of adaptation, and some of the deviations...such as the much more fleshed-out characterization of Yeung Hong, actually were great ideas. But...

    I feel that if LOCH '82 had a weakness, it's that certain subplots just went on way too long. For example, the story of Yeung Teet Sum and Pau Sik Yerk: I like these characters, and their story isn't innately uninteresting, but...I don't need TEN FORTY-MINUTE EPISODES focused mostly on their separation and its aftermath. That part of the adaptation just went on way, way, WAY too long. I've been told that the novel depicted their reunion and eventual suicide together as a matter of just one night, but LOCH '82 stretched this out over ten episodes that must have covered months and months of story time. I like the story of YTS and PSY, but...I just don't need NEARLY that much of it. Much of that time could have been better used on more fight scenes or to focus on Gwok Jing and Wong Yung, or the background of the Greats, or something else more interesting.

    Ditto the subplot of Yeung Hong and Muk Lim Chi's relationship. It wasn't bad, and the characters weren't unlikable, but again, it just stretched on for way too long...with too much back and forth melodrama that got repetitive and frustrating after a while, and could have been handled in a much more condensed way.

  2. #2
    Senior Member CC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    5,207

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    TVB's LOCH '82 series is one (if not THE) my all time wuxia adaptations, but that doesn't mean I don't have some issues with it. I haven't read the novels, so I'm not (and can't be) a stickler for accuracy of adaptation, and some of the deviations...such as the much more fleshed-out depiction of Yeung Hong, actually were great ideas. But...

    I feel that if LOCH '82 had a weakness, it's that certain subplots just went on way too long. For example, the story of Yeung Teet Sum and Pau Sik Yerk: I like these characters, and their story isn't innately uninteresting, but...I don't need TEN FORTY-MINUTE EPISODES focused mostly on their separation and its aftermath. That part of the adaptation just went on way, way, WAY too long. I've been told that the novel depicted their reunion and eventual suicide together as a matter of just one night, but LOCH '82 stretched this out over ten episodes that must have covered months and months of story time. I like the story of YTS and PSY, but...I just don't need NEARLY that much of it. Much of that time could have been better used on more fight scenes or to focus on Gwok Jing and Wong Yung, or the background of the Greats, or something else more interesting.

    Ditto the subplot of Yeung Hong and Muk Lim Chi's relationship. It wasn't bad, and the characters weren't unlikable, but again, it just stretched on for way too long...with too much back and forth melodrama that got repetitive and frustrating after a while, and could have been handled in a much more condensed way.
    Maybe Patrick threw a hissy fit and demanded more than 1 episode.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Giang Ho, Canada
    Posts
    4,743

    Default

    I don't read the novel so but I really like the episodes covering YTS and PSY. I really like their love story. It's much better than the third part of LOCH covering the Mongol invasion.

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    2,005

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    I don't read the novel so but I really like the episodes covering YTS and PSY. I really like their love story. It's much better than the third part of LOCH covering the Mongol invasion.
    Genghis Khan is the second most important character in LOCH. He is arguably the whole point of LOCH.

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Giang Ho, Canada
    Posts
    4,743

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pannonian View Post
    Genghis Khan is the second most important character in LOCH. He is arguably the whole point of LOCH.
    What?? Genghis Khan is just a minor character. Kwok Jing, Wong Yung, Yeung Hong, Muk Lim Chi, YTS, PSY, Greats, ect. are the important characters. Genghis Khan is a very minor.

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    2,005

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    What?? Genghis Khan is just a minor character. Kwok Jing, Wong Yung, Yeung Hong, Muk Lim Chi, YTS, PSY, Greats, ect. are the important characters. Genghis Khan is a very minor.
    Read the novel. LOCH is the story of two parallel heroes: Genghis Khan and Guo Jing. The novel can be said to exist only because Jin Yong wanted a wuxia take on the story of Genghis Khan, weaving the character of Guo Jing into the Secret History of the Mongols.

  7. #7
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    23,021

    Default

    In terms of screen-time, we don't see Genghis that much. He was prominent near the beginning, disappears for a great part of the middle of the story, and becomes prominent again towards the end, but LOCH was kind of an ongoing dialogue between Temujin's and Gwok Jing's contrasting visions of what it means to be a hero.

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    261

    Default

    I found it more entertaining to watch the time when GJ was in Mongolia. I felt he was more manly and heroic, from the shooting of the eagle scene to the assassination task.

    When he left Mongolia, he pretty much just stuck to WY and got pussy wiped for the rest of the series.

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Giang Ho, Canada
    Posts
    4,743

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Stance View Post
    I found it more entertaining to watch the time when GJ was in Mongolia. I felt he was more manly and heroic, from the shooting of the eagle scene to the assassination task.

    When he left Mongolia, he pretty much just stuck to WY and got pussy wiped for the rest of the series.
    I am the opposite. I found the worst part of the serial is when Kwok was in Mongolia, both at the beginning at toward the end. His mom was also annoying for wanting her son to marry Hua Jeng princess. As a mother, how could she want her son to marry someone like Hua Jeng and live a miserable life? The best part began when KJ met WY until he was back to Mongolia again.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Mandred Skavenslayer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    911

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    I am the opposite. I found the worst part of the serial is when Kwok was in Mongolia, both at the beginning at toward the end. His mom was also annoying for wanting her son to marry Hua Jeng princess. As a mother, how could she want her son to marry someone like Hua Jeng and live a miserable life? The best part began when KJ met WY until he was back to Mongolia again.
    Basically any part that shows the 'Evil' Mongolians in anything resembling a positive light you do not like. Just say it and be done with it.

  11. #11
    Senior Member CC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    5,207

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    I am the opposite. I found the worst part of the serial is when Kwok was in Mongolia, both at the beginning at toward the end. His mom was also annoying for wanting her son to marry Hua Jeng princess. As a mother, how could she want her son to marry someone like Hua Jeng and live a miserable life? The best part began when KJ met WY until he was back to Mongolia again.
    She is hot, she is truly devoted to your son and her dad is the richest most powerful man in the land AND her dad and brother likes your son too. Most people can only dream of such a situation.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Giang Ho, Canada
    Posts
    4,743

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandred Skavenslayer View Post
    Basically any part that shows the 'Evil' Mongolians in anything resembling a positive light you do not like. Just say it and be done with it.
    Do you remember how Li Ping died? If KJ refused to follow the order to invade the Song Dynasty, both him and his mother will be executed. This is how Genghis Khan treated a man who saved his life twice, saved his son and daughter lives, etc. Historically, the Mongols were extremely evil when they were in power. They killed millions of innocent people including women and children.

    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    She is hot, she is truly devoted to your son and her dad is the richest most powerful man in the land AND her dad and brother likes your son too. Most people can only dream of such a situation.
    Yes, WJ is truly devoted to KJ but GJ would be either a dead man or a traitor if he is married to her. In case of KJ, he would be for sure a dead man as he rather be dead than be a traitor. No good men would want to be in such situation where both he and his mother would be executed. On the other hand, he is truly a hero when he with WY. Well, we witness it in ROCH.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Mandred Skavenslayer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    911

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    Do you remember how Li Ping died? If KJ refused to follow the order to invade the Song Dynasty, both him and his mother will be executed. This is how Genghis Khan treated a man who saved his life twice, saved his son and daughter lives, etc. Historically, the Mongols were extremely evil when they were in power. They killed millions of innocent people including women and children.



    Yes, WJ is truly devoted to KJ but GJ would be either a dead man or a traitor if he is married to her. In case of KJ, he would be for sure a dead man as he rather be dead than be a traitor. No good men would want to be in such situation where both he and his mother would be executed. On the other hand, he is truly a hero when he with WY. Well, we witness it in ROCH.
    And how many people did the Chinese Empire kill in its 2,000 years existence? Just Mao's great leap forward and the An Lushan Rebellion nearly doubled the total death toll of the entire lifespan of the Mongol empire. So how 'Evil' are the Chinese. Who forced Zhang Cuishan to commit suicide and raped Xiaolongnü? Those honorable orthodox Han Chinese you are on about.

  14. #14
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    23,021

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    She is hot, she is truly devoted to your son and her dad is the richest most powerful man in the land AND her dad and brother likes your son too. Most people can only dream of such a situation.
    LOCH '82 portrayed Princess Hua Jeng as being a bit whiny, but apparently, this was not a part of her original (novel) characterization. Take away that characteristic, and we're left with...a bit of a cipher, personality-wise. I imagine the novel's Hua Jeng was perhaps somewhat similar to her mother...someone who would (later in life) become a matriarchal figure. I know that Mongolian women had a degree of social influence that was ahead of much of the rest of the world during the 1200s.

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Giang Ho, Canada
    Posts
    4,743

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandred Skavenslayer View Post
    And how many people did the Chinese Empire kill in its 2,000 years existence? Just Mao's great leap forward and the An Lushan Rebellion nearly doubled the total death toll of the entire lifespan of the Mongol empire. So how 'Evil' are the Chinese. Who forced Zhang Cuishan to commit suicide and raped Xiaolongnü? Those honorable orthodox Han Chinese you are on about.
    An Lushan was evil. No doubt. Countless millions innocent people died.

    Mao's great leap forward and cultural revolution were big disaster to society. He was a war hero but he was not fit to rule
    . He should step down after the war and let people like Deng Xiaopeng rules the country.

    The guy who raped SLN is a rapist and should be punished accordingly. Regarding Zhang Cuishan, he should not protect the Golden Lion King. The GLK killed countless innocent people. He should pay the price for what he did.

    Regarding the Mongols, you can just look at history.

  16. #16
    Senior Member Mandred Skavenslayer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    911

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    An Lushan was evil. No doubt. Countless millions innocent people died.

    Mao's great leap forward and cultural revolution were big disaster to society. He was a war hero but he was not fit to rule
    . He should step down after the war and let people like Deng Xiaopeng rules the country.
    Explaining these events does not justify them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    The guy who raped SLN is a rapist and should be punished accordingly. Regarding Zhang Cuishan, he should not protect the Golden Lion King. The GLK killed countless innocent people. He should pay the price for what he did.
    So you are willing to separate out individual Han Chinese committing evil acts from the general populous but are not willing to extend the same courtesy to Mongols. That my friend is racism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    Regarding the Mongols, you can just look at history.
    Not my point. You measured how 'Evil' the Mongols were by how many people they killed. If you apply the same criteria to the Han Chinese then they are 5 to 6 times more 'Evil'. A quick glance at any history book will tell you that.

  17. #17
    Senior Member CC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    5,207

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    LOCH '82 portrayed Princess Hua Jeng as being a bit whiny, but apparently, this was not a part of her original (novel) characterization. Take away that characteristic, and we're left with...a bit of a cipher, personality-wise. I imagine the novel's Hua Jeng was perhaps somewhat similar to her mother...someone who would (later in life) become a matriarchal figure. I know that Mongolian women had a degree of social influence that was ahead of much of the rest of the world during the 1200s.
    OT a bit but I have actually been to Mongolia (not Inner Mongolia the PRC part) and outside of Ulaan Bataar, where they are still living in the yurts and herding animals, the ladies there look tough and could probably tear me into half. No they were not big or super stocky or even ugly. But you sure can tell they were tough. Yeah, cue the Mother of Wolves trope or something like that.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

  18. #18
    Senior Member Mandred Skavenslayer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    911

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    OT a bit but I have actually been to Mongolia (not Inner Mongolia the PRC part) and outside of Ulaan Bataar, where they are still living in the yurts and herding animals, the ladies there look tough and could probably tear me into half. No they were not big or super stocky or even ugly. But you sure can tell they were tough. Yeah, cue the Mother of Wolves trope or something like that.
    Hence whenever Genghis came home with a new wife, he always made sure Borte was in a good mood first.

  19. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Giang Ho, Canada
    Posts
    4,743

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandred Skavenslayer View Post
    Explaining these events does not justify them.

    So you are willing to separate out individual Han Chinese committing evil acts from the general populous but are not willing to extend the same courtesy to Mongols. That my friend is racism.

    Not my point. You measured how 'Evil' the Mongols were by how many people they killed. If you apply the same criteria to the Han Chinese then they are 5 to 6 times more 'Evil'. A quick glance at any history book will tell you that.
    An Lushan should not rebel as he enjoy all the privileges during the Tang Dynasty. Ten of million of people got killed because of him. Mao was NOT fit to rule after the war as we can see all his disastrous policies. Regarding the Mongols, they masacred the entire city including children just because the city did not surrender to them at first. They did this not just to China to many countries in the middle east as well. You can justisfy all their actions as you want but it is no doubt that they were very evil during the Mongol Empire.

  20. #20
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    23,021

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    An Lushan should not rebel as he enjoy all the privileges during the Tang Dynasty. Ten of million of people got killed because of him. Mao was NOT fit to rule after the war as we can see all his disastrous policies. Regarding the Mongols, they masacred the entire city including children just because the city did not surrender to them at first. They did this not just to China to many countries in the middle east as well. You can justisfy all their actions as you want but it is no doubt that they were very evil during the Mongol Empire.
    I think what Mandred is disputing (and I concur) is that you have a tendency to treat Han Chinese as individual people (rather than a mass) who make individual decisions with various consequences, but you tend to not do this for Mongolian people (whom you treat as a mass). Among ethnic Mongolians, is there no one whom you respect or admire as an upstanding individual...or even a good one with flaws, or do you believe that anyone born a Mongol is automatically predisposed to be evil?

Similar Threads

  1. Leaving Footprint On The Ground: revisited
    By PJ in forum Wuxia Fiction
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 04-23-20, 03:29 PM
  2. Replies: 15
    Last Post: 01-08-14, 12:02 AM
  3. Replies: 29
    Last Post: 08-03-07, 04:28 PM
  4. Replies: 4
    Last Post: 03-30-06, 07:55 AM
  5. Xiao Feng and heroism revisited
    By PJ in forum Wuxia Fiction
    Replies: 36
    Last Post: 03-02-06, 12:51 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •