what a big shocking revision in LOCH !

[a_tumiwa]

i check the last chapter in the third edition of LOCH , Guo Jing and Huang Rong were now defending Qingzhou instead of XiangYang.

Chapter 40:
两人计议已定，心中反而舒畅，当下回入城中，对酌谈论，想到敌军压境，面临生离死别，比往日更增一层亲密。 直饮到二更时分，忽听城外号哭之声大作，远远传来，极是惨厉。黄蓉叫道：“来啦！”两人奔到城头，只见城外 难民大至，扶老携幼，人流滚滚不尽。原来忠义军虽收复了青州，但宋军反而进攻忠义军，忠义军的将领又起叛乱 ，杀死了李全的哥哥李福，李全夫妇便派兵平乱，众百姓怕乱，不敢进城，散居于山野之间，现下蒙古兵杀到，只 得逃向城中躲避。
　　哪知守城官令军士紧闭城门，不放难民入城。过不多时，李全加派士卒，弯弓搭箭对住难民，喝令退去。城下 难民大叫：“蒙古兵杀来啦！”守城官只是不开城门。众难民在城下号叫呼喊，哭声震天。
　　靖蓉二人站在城头，极目远望，但见远处一条火龙蜿蜒而来，显是蒙古军的先锋到了。郭靖久在成吉思汗麾下 ，熟知蒙古军攻城惯例，常迫使敌人俘虏先登，眼见数万难民集于城下，蒙古先锋一至，青州城内城外军民，势非 自相残杀不可。
　　此时情势紧急，已无迟疑余裕，郭靖站在城头，振臂大呼：“青州城如给蒙古兵打破，无人能活，是好汉子快 跟我杀敌去！”那北门守城官是李全的亲信，听得郭靖呼叫，怒喝： “奸民扰乱人心，快拿下了！”郭靖从城头跃下，右臂长出，抓住守城官前胸，举起他身子，自己登上了他的坐骑 。

[CC]

My history sucks but by the Southern Song, wasn't ancient Qingzhou already out of Song hands (it was lost during North Song times).

[wkeej]

Qingzhou and Xiangyang is 778km apart. https://www.rome2rio.com/s/Xiangyang/Qingzhou

[CC]

Qingzhou and Xiangyang is 778km apart. https://www.rome2rio.com/s/Xiangyang/Qingzhou

My point is that Qingzhou is way north of the Yangtze. it should have been in Jin hands by the time of the end of North Song and by ROCH would be inside Mongol territory. What gives?

[pannonian]

My point is that Qingzhou is way north of the Yangtze. it should have been in Jin hands by the time of the end of North Song and by ROCH would be inside Mongol territory. What gives?

At the end of LOCH, the Jin had just been eradicated, due in no small part to Guo Jing. The former Jin lands were split between the Mongols and the Song (remember Tolui travelling south to negotiate the Mongol-Song alliance in an earlier chapter).

[Ken Cheng]

Here were the two perspectives, as far as I can tell:

The Sung: This was our territory over 100 years ago, so we have a legit claim to it. We're taking back what was ours in the first place.

The Mongols: That was a long time ago. Other people controlled that territory before you. You don't have a perpetual claim to it, especially since we did the heavy lifting fighting the Jin. We made the greater effort and sacrifice for this land, so our claim to it is more legitimate.

[wkeej]

Doing some research, the last capital of Song Dynasty is Hangzhou.

Defending Qingzhou is logical, it lies at a strategic point https://www.google.com/maps/place/Qi...9!4d118.479654
before Hangzhou. https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ha...84!4d120.15507

[pannonian]

Doing some research, the last capital of Song Dynasty is Hangzhou.

Defending Qingzhou is logical, it lies at a strategic point https://www.google.com/maps/place/Qi...9!4d118.479654
before Hangzhou. https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ha...84!4d120.15507

Strictly speaking, the last capital of the Song Dynasty is Linan. Which is the same city as Hangzhou, but it's referred to in LOCH and ROCH as Linan.

Incidentally, depending on whose city it was, the current Beijing has been Nan (south), Zhong (central) and Bei (north). It needs to be conquered by the Japanese and the Tibetans, then it can add East and West to the list. Japan has its own Tokyo (eastern city) and Kyoto (old capital).

[wkeej]

Incidentally, depending on whose city it was, the current Beijing has been Nan (south), Zhong (central) and Bei (north). It needs to be conquered by the Japanese and the Tibetans, then it can add East and West to the list. Japan has its own Tokyo (eastern city) and Kyoto (old capital).

OT: Is there a West City in the world? Tibet is called as "West Region".

[CC]

At the end of LOCH, the Jin had just been eradicated, due in no small part to Guo Jing. The former Jin lands were split between the Mongols and the Song (remember Tolui travelling south to negotiate the Mongol-Song alliance in an earlier chapter).

1. If GJ died based on 2nd edition dates of around 1270s, Qingzhou was way in Mongol hands already.

2. At the time of Genghis Khans death around 1227, yes Qingzhou was not in Mongol hands, the Mongol limit at that time was just north of Qingzhou.

3. Unless GJ's death date was changed, by 1273, Mongols were already way south of Qingzhou and at Xiangyang.

So the changes now is : End of LOCH, GJ at Qingzhou? By ROCH, GJ and HR were still at Xiangyang? I originally was thinking ROCH timeline, not LOCH.

[wkeej]

If Qingzhou fell, then the Mongols will be able to move down to Hangzhou easily.

Logically, GJ and his gang should retreat to Hangzhou for a final fight.

There is no logic to move to Xiangyang unless the Mongols are not able to capture Hangzhou. And need reinforcements from the Momgol troops coming from Xiangyang.

[pannonian]

1. If GJ died based on 2nd edition dates of around 1270s, Qingzhou was way in Mongol hands already.

2. At the time of Genghis Khans death around 1227, yes Qingzhou was not in Mongol hands, the Mongol limit at that time was just north of Qingzhou.

3. Unless GJ's death date was changed, by 1273, Mongols were already way south of Qingzhou and at Xiangyang.

So the changes now is : End of LOCH, GJ at Qingzhou? By ROCH, GJ and HR were still at Xiangyang? I originally was thinking ROCH timeline, not LOCH.

I thought it was just the 3rd ed LOCH sort of battle that was at Qingzhou. The city that Guo Jing defends in 3rd ed ROCH is still Xiangyang. So during Guo Jing's and Huang Rong's years on Peach Blossom Island, the Mongols went past Qingzhou to Xiangyang.

[pannonian]

Another historical novel note: the city that is referred to as Linan in LOCH and ROCH is referred to as Hangzhou in HSDS. Which is a nice historical detail from Jinyong.

[CC]

I thought it was just the 3rd ed LOCH sort of battle that was at Qingzhou. The city that Guo Jing defends in 3rd ed ROCH is still Xiangyang. So during Guo Jing's and Huang Rong's years on Peach Blossom Island, the Mongols went past Qingzhou to Xiangyang.

Are you sure 2nd Ed LOCH wasnt Qingzhou as well? Because at LOCH end, the Mongols were far from Xiangyang based on historical dates.

[wkeej]

I thought it was just the 3rd ed LOCH sort of battle that was at Qingzhou. The city that Guo Jing defends in 3rd ed ROCH is still Xiangyang. So during Guo Jing's and Huang Rong's years on Peach Blossom Island, the Mongols went past Qingzhou to Xiangyang.

Sounds strange. Why would the Mongols move from Qingzhou to Xiangyang? Unless there is another group attacking the latter.

[pannonian]

Sounds strange. Why would the Mongols move from Qingzhou to Xiangyang? Unless there is another group attacking the latter.

Xiangyang was an important fortress because it commanded the Yangtze logistics. From wiki:

"The strategic significance of Xiangyang came from the fact that it was in a position dominating the Han river. Once the Mongol forces occupied Xiangyang, they could travel by ships down the Han river into the Yangtze river. After the Battle of Xiangyang, China could not enjoy the protection of natural barriers any more and so it collapsed in just a few years, with the final battle being the relatively short naval Battle of Yamen in 1279."

[pannonian]

Sounds strange. Why would the Mongols move from Qingzhou to Xiangyang? Unless there is another group attacking the latter.

From third edition changes thread.

15) Guo Jing and Huang Rong were protecting Qing Zhou here. (AS JIN YONG WROTE IN THE COMMENTS, GUO JING WILL CONTINUE TO PROTECT THE CITY XIANGYANG IN ROCH) The commander of this place surrendered immediately when Guo Jing and Huang Rong went to see Djenghis Khan.

So Qingzhou wasn't taken when they went to Peach Blossom Island, but surrendered when Guo Jing followed Tolui to see Genghis Khan.

[wkeej]

From third edition changes thread.



So Qingzhou wasn't taken when they went to Peach Blossom Island, but surrendered when Guo Jing followed Tolui to see Genghis Khan.

In that case, Qingzhou has fallen before the death of Genghis Khan. Possibly because of the in-fighting, the Mongols did not move down towards Hangzhou and went down to Mongolia?

[Athena]

Qingzhou was lost; however during the waning years of Jin Dynasty Qingzhou the local Han Militia (紅襖軍), the Red Robes, took over command of the territory. The Red Robed Militia was formed to counter the Jin Dynasty policy of giving land to Jurchen nobles at the expense of the local Han landowners, so they formed militia to protect their interests.

When the Jin Dynasty diverted their military resources to fight the Mongolians, Qingzhou and some other places became 'independent'. Strictly speaking they were under the control of the Jin Empire, but in reality, the local militia ruled.

During the time of LOCH (in real history), there was a bit of a Three Kingdom situation (Jurchen, Southern Song and the Mongolians), each tried very hard to gain control over the 'independent' territories. The Red Robes originally aligned themselves with the Southern Song government (mainly thanks to the Chancellor Shi Miyuan) and the local militia commander was bestowed the title of 'jiedushi' (military governor) of Qingzhou. It was a very complicated time; alliances changed each government tried to entice the Qingzhou commanders to align with them.

What Louis Cha did was put Guo Jing and Huang Rong in Qingzhou to defend Qingzhou from Mongolian invasion, in history, Mongolians did try to take Qingzhou through military force. In the book, the entire scene plays out like in the previous editions with Guo Jing going to Mongolia to see Genghis Khan before he dies, crisis in Qingzhou averted. However, Li Quan the commander of Qingzhou and leader of the Red Robes, surrendered to the Mongolians.

Li Quan is somewhat of an interesting character, in history, as he tried very hard to play all three camps to get the best deal from anyone. At one point, he overplayed his hand and the Southern Song government, unlike before, decided to lead a military campaign to destroy Li Quan, which succeeded. One of the many people who wrote memoranda to the imperial court to remove Li Quan by force was the grandson of Yue Fei.

Another interesting tidbit of Li Quan and his wife Yang Miaozhen (楊妙真) is that both are very famous spear wielders. Li Quan's nickname is Iron Spear Li and his wife, Yang, was said to be invincible in combat using a spear, leading some modern speculation that she may be the source of the Yang Family Female General saga, as the legend of the female Yang Warriors, was a later literary product.

In Roch, since Qinzhou became Mongolian territory, Guo Jing and Huang Rong go to defend Xiangyang, so no crisis, people.

[wkeej]

Thanks, Athena.
So when GJ went to meet GK, Qingzhou has not fallen to the Mongols?