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Thread: Did the secrets of the HS and the DS become widely known in wulin?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    Without taoist neigong someone only could learn 9 Yin external art but with taoist neigong he could learn and have better internal boosting as well as "combine" with other internal art which Wuji lack that was I mean so he couldn't "combine" 9 Yin and 9 Yang as he mention in novel which only Z3F can..
    So the irony would be, besides from WCY, regardless of who wins the Huashan Tournament. None of them could ever learn 9 Yin.

    So why was WCY, so concern that 9 Yin would fall into the wrong hands, such as to OYF? He can't learnt it anyways since he has no taoist neigong.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stance View Post
    So the irony would be, besides from WCY, regardless of who wins the Huashan Tournament. None of them could ever learn 9 Yin.

    So why was WCY, so concern that 9 Yin would fall into the wrong hands, such as to OYF? He can't learnt it anyways since he has no taoist neigong.
    So which great learn 9 Yin internal method since 9 Yin have 2 volume internal and external art and only someone with taoist neigong have great "benefit" if learn it..

  3. #23
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    All great only aim to "external art" (like OYF) from 9 Yin not internal art since to "beat" other great they need "better technique" and "theory" not necessary "internal" except Yu have strong taoist base like ZBT/GJ..

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    9 yin is described very differently in LOCH/ROCH compared to HSDS. In LOCH/ROCH, it seems that it contains a comprehensive compendium of martial arts theory expressed in Taoist terms, both internal and external, plus exercises to improve one's strength and inner power (notably the 'Tendon-Changing Bone-Tempering' section), but it does not appear to have a complete neigong system of its own - it merely enhances what you already have. GJ in ROCH continued practicing his Quanzhen neigong - he did not replace it with something better from 9 yin.

    In HSDS, ZZR started developing a yin inner power that was the opposite of ZWJ's 9 yang. This never occurred in LOCH/ROCH - the words '9 yin zhen qi' literally never appear in LOCH or ROCH. It might be a leftover from the first edition, where both 9 yin and 9 yang were created by Damo (a Buddhist), as equal, opposite but different arts.

    The 9 yin of LOCH/ROCH plus 9 yang should be compatible. Indeed, Z3F himself said that the theories of 9 yang were far closer to that of Taoism than of Buddhism. The 9 yin of HSDS plus 9 yang, with its conflicting energies, would be problematic. 9 yin is supposed to be neutral overall in the 3rd edition, so it might be compatible again (the passage about the conflict between 9 yin/yang was removed), but JY appears to have forgotten about it again by the end of the HSDS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    YG (and XLN) learn QZ before he learn 9 Yin
    They learnt the QZ martial arts, not neigong. YG's neigong base was firmly in ancient-tomb neigong at that point. Yet YG was clearly aware of the inner power portions of 9 yin - when he noticed differences between his version and OYF's garbled version, he brought up the Yijin Duangu (Tendon changing bone training) art as an example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    I not say Wuji couldn't learn 9 Yin but if he aim to "combine" 9 Yin with 9 Yang he can't for sure since he didn't have taoist neigong as his "base neigong" so he only could learn 9 Yin external art which not contain internal at all just like MCF did (and perhaps Lady Yang)..
    Again, where is this Taoist neigong pre-requisite for internal 9 yin coming from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    And for H7Q don't forget he once learn 9 Yin theory/philoshophy when he was injury in remotely island which he give GJ some of "advise" so given that fact he know 9 Yin at least in "theory" except the healing method
    So H7Q, a non-Taoist, was able to understand the Taoist theory well enough to advise GJ? Then ZWJ with his Taoist upbringing should be even better equipped to understand 9 yin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    Without taoist neigong someone only could learn 9 Yin external art but with taoist neigong he could learn and have better internal boosting as well as "combine" with other internal art which Wuji lack that was I mean so he couldn't "combine" 9 Yin and 9 Yang as he mention in novel which only Z3F can..
    So how did ZZR, with her Emei (Buddhist) background, practicing the Emei version of 9 yang, manage to develop 9 yin inner power?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Kwok View Post
    They learnt the QZ martial arts, not neigong. YG's neigong base was firmly in ancient-tomb neigong at that point. Yet YG was clearly aware of the inner power portions of 9 yin - when he noticed differences between his version and OYF's garbled version, he brought up the Yijin Duangu (Tendon changing bone training) art as an example.



    Again, where is this Taoist neigong pre-requisite for internal 9 yin coming from?



    So H7Q, a non-Taoist, was able to understand the Taoist theory well enough to advise GJ? Then ZWJ with his Taoist upbringing should be even better equipped to understand 9 yin.



    So how did ZZR, with her Emei (Buddhist) background, practicing the Emei version of 9 yang, manage to develop 9 yin inner power?
    1. YG learn QZ neigong from Zhao Zhijing but without "real application" untill he join Gumu..
    2. H7G not "combine" 9 Yin with his "original art" he only memorize but not "grasp" the "essense" of the internal art from 9 Yin same like YG he not learn 9 Yin "internal" so he couldn't "combine" this with his "base neigong" though he have QZ neigong and after he lose his arm he "change" his internal training/method which not bring cultivate anymore but by "torrent training" so that's why I say Yu didn't read my comment carefully I not say Wuji "can't" learn 9 Yin but without taoist base he couldn't "combine" 9 Yin with his 9 Yang which only Z3F can
    3. Well 9 Yin came from taoist philoshophy afterall
    4. It's true but she's not "combine" it with his "original skill" (Emei 9 Yang) even he "lost" her "base neigong" after learn 9 Yin

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    They learnt the QZ martial arts, not neigong. YG's neigong base was firmly in ancient-tomb neigong at that point. Yet YG was clearly aware of the inner power portions of 9 yin - when he noticed differences between his version and OYF's garbled version, he brought up the Yijin Duangu (Tendon changing bone training) art as an example.
    ....
    Well to "mastering" Jade Maiden someone need QZ neigong as a "base" and YG have it..

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    I wonder why Wuji lover alwayz "blind"🙄🙄🙄🙄

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    1. YG learn QZ neigong from Zhao Zhijing but without "real application" untill he join Gumu..
    What he learnt was the Quanzhen Dadao song - it was the key to utilising Quanzhen martial arts, but it was not the inner power cultivation method - that is something different altogether.

    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    2. H7G not "combine" 9 Yin with his "original art" he only memorize but not "grasp" the "essense" of the internal art from 9 Yin same like YG he not learn 9 Yin "internal" so he couldn't "combine" this with his "base neigong" though he have QZ neigong and after he lose his arm he "change" his internal training/method which not bring cultivate anymore but by "torrent training" so that's why I say Yu didn't read my comment carefully I not say Wuji "can't" learn 9 Yin but without taoist base he couldn't "combine" 9 Yin with his 9 Yang which only Z3F can
    七公曾聽郭靖、黃蓉背誦真經中的一小部份,與自己原來武功一加印證,也大有進境

    'H7G had previously listened to GJ and HR recite a small portion of the scripture, and once he verified it against his original martial arts, also advanced greatly'

    H7G didn't just memorize it - he incorporated it into his existing arts. In fact, everyone with access to 9 yin (except maybe ZZR) ended up using its principles to 'improve' in general, and combined it with their original art.

    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    3. Well 9 Yin came from taoist philoshophy afterall
    And in the first edition, it came from Buddhist philosophy, but the story didn't change that much. Which philosophy is behind 9 yin really doesn't matter very much to the story.

    4. It's true but she's not "combine" it with his "original skill" (Emei 9 Yang) even he "lost" her "base neigong" after learn 9 Yin[/QUOTE]

    You said before that a Taoist neigong base was needed to learn 9 yin internal skills in the first place. Are you now saying that it is not necessary to learn 9 yin inner power skills, but only to 'combine' it with whatever came before?

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    Well to "mastering" Jade Maiden someone need QZ neigong as a "base" and YG have it..
    第一步,你先得練成本門各項武功。第二步是學全真派武功。第三步再練剋制全真派武功的玉女心經 。

    The first step, you must first complete training in the martial arts of our sect. The second step is to learn Quanzhen martial arts. The third step is to learn the arts of the Jade maiden sutra that counter Quanzhen martial arts.

    「我與師父學練全真武功,練不多久,便難進展一步,其時祖師婆婆已不在世,無處可以請教。明知由於未得門徑 口訣,卻也無法可想。

    "I and my teacher trained in Quanzhen martial arts, not long after starting training, it became hard to advance a single step, at that time our ancestor granny had passed away, there was no one to advise up. We knew full well it was because we did not have the entry-level verbal formula, but we could not think of any other ideas.

    小龍女細辨歌意,說道:「聽來這確是全真派武功的要訣。你既知道,那再好也沒有了。

    XLN carefully pondered on the meaning of the song, said 'It sounds like this is definitely the principle points of Quanzhen martial arts. Since you know it, it couldn't be better'.

    You are simply wrong on this matter - the contents of the song were related to Quanzhen martial arts, not the neigong. Jade Maiden does not require Quanzhen neigong as a base, only knowledge of its martial arts.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    So which great learn 9 Yin internal method since 9 Yin have 2 volume internal and external art and only someone with taoist neigong have great "benefit" if learn it..
    Are you sure that's how the two volumes are separated?

    According to this, there is no mention that one was internal and the other was external.

    Volume One:
    Huang Shang was a high-ranking official that served Emperor Huizong of the Song Dynasty, who reigned between the era of Demi-Gods and Semi-Devils and The Legend of the Condor Heroes. The emperor asked Huang Shang, a man who was equally gifted in both the martial and literary arts, to compile a book from thousands of loose scrolls and ancient scriptures containing information on everything from inner power, healing techniques, martial art classics and also Taoist philosophy. The compiled work became the first volume of Jiu Yin Zhen Jing.

    Volume Two:
    For the next 40 years, Huang Shang dedicated himself to finding ways capable of defeating all of the Ming Cult's kungfu. Additionally, because many of the Ming Cult members were affiliated with such established fighter groups as Shaolin, Kunlun, Gongdong, Gai Bang, the Duan Royal Family of Dali, etc. Huang Shang had to develop techniques capable of neutralizing the kungfu of these traditional sects as well.

    Finally, Huang Shang succeeded in accomplishing this monumental task. Unfortunately, over the years, his enemies had all died of other causes. Confronted with this reality, all Huang Shang could do was make a second compilation based on his 40 years of study, which became the second volume of Jiu Yin Zhen Jing.

    https://wuxia.fandom.com/wiki/Huang_Shang

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    I wonder why Wuji lover alwayz "blind"🙄🙄🙄🙄
    OT:

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stance View Post
    Are you sure that's how the two volumes are separated?

    According to this, there is no mention that one was internal and the other was external.
    [/url]
    The first volume was devoted to foundations and theory. The second volume was about practical techniques. There is no clean split between internal and external.

    The first volume teaches you how to strengthen your body and build up your inner power base, and teaches you fundamental martial arts theory. If you learn only the first volume, you will be strong, fit, and knowledgeable about martial arts, but would not know how to fight at all.

    The second volume teaches you practical fighting techniques, but all of them rely on the inner power foundation provided by the first volume. Without the required foundation, you might end up injuring or killing yourself while training the techniques, and they would not be effective in any case. In the second edition, CYF and MCF simply picked techniques that were somewhat compatible with their existing Peach Blossom foundations, while in the third edition it contained the techniques of HS's enemies that did not require the foundations provided by the first volume. In all editions, they developed their own clumsy technique to strengthen themselves (by swallowing arsenic then forcing it out again, which caused their appearances to distort).

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