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Thread: "Our worst enemies are often our best teachers": a wuxia trope?

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    Default "Our worst enemies are often our best teachers": a wuxia trope?

    In LOCH, Gwok Jing made one of his biggest leaps in martial arts ability after spending months as the prisoner of West Poison Au Yeung Fung. Needing to spar against Au Yeung Fung regularly just to survive, Gwok Jing made his last big martial arts leap in the story...taking him within striking distance of the level of the Greats. Similarly, in ROCH, one of Yeung Gor's biggest pre-Heavy Iron Sword boosts came after his discussion with the Golden Wheel Monk, who advised him to focus on one martial art rather than trying to be a jack of all trades. The advice helped Yeung Gor to advance to a higher level.

    Is this a trope of wuxia: that our worst enemies are sometimes our best teachers?

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    In WWII, German encounters with the Soviet T-34 and KV tanks led to their development of the big cats (Panther, King Tiger). Soviet encounters with the Tiger and Panther led to their development of the cat killers (IS tanks).

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    Quote Originally Posted by pannonian View Post
    In WWII, German encounters with the Soviet T-34 and KV tanks led to their development of the big cats (Panther, King Tiger). Soviet encounters with the Tiger and Panther led to their development of the cat killers (IS tanks).
    Good for military buffs and scale modellers and gamers but the resource hog big cats arguably set their war ability back.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    Good for military buffs and scale modellers and gamers but the resource hog big cats arguably set their war ability back.
    Not really. The Germans had two resource bottlenecks that the big cats helped alleviate, oil and trained crews. Even if they didn't bother with the cats and concentrated instead on Pz IVs, they still wouldn't have enough oil to fuel their war effort, and contributing to their other shortage, they wouldn't have enough oil to allow for proper training of crews. Towards the end of the war, they concentrated their anti-aircraft defences on flak guns rather than interceptors, as they didn't have the fuel to allow trainee pilots to clock up the required hours before action. The same problem led the Japanese to concentrate on kamikaze defences, as they didn't require much training.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pannonian View Post
    Not really. The Germans had two resource bottlenecks that the big cats helped alleviate, oil and trained crews. Even if they didn't bother with the cats and concentrated instead on Pz IVs, they still wouldn't have enough oil to fuel their war effort, and contributing to their other shortage, they wouldn't have enough oil to allow for proper training of crews. Towards the end of the war, they concentrated their anti-aircraft defences on flak guns rather than interceptors, as they didn't have the fuel to allow trainee pilots to clock up the required hours before action. The same problem led the Japanese to concentrate on kamikaze defences, as they didn't require much training.
    Crew wise maybe but in terms of fuel, given the other logistic train like the problem of towing them and their own consumption, I not sure if 1 Tiger drank like 3-4 Hetzers

    Then there is the argument of delaying Citadel due to waiting for the Tigers and allowing the Soviet build up.

    Who really knows. But my point is that the overall value of the big cats is not clear cut.
    Last edited by CC; 06-14-20 at 08:06 AM.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Similarly, in ROCH, one of Yeung Gor's biggest pre-Heavy Iron Sword boosts came after his discussion with the Golden Wheel Monk, who advised him to focus on one martial art rather than trying to be a jack of all trades. The advice helped Yeung Gor to advance to a higher level.
    I do think that the advice is overrated, since YG ultimately disregarded it. It did make YG think through his approach to martial arts though.

    然則我該當專修那一門功夫?」在情在理,自當專研古墓派的玉女心經才是,但想到洪七公的打狗棒法如此奧妙、 黃藥師的玉蕭劍法這等精微,置之不理,豈非可惜?而義父的蛤蟆功與經脈逆行、九陰真經中的諸般功夫,無一不 是以一技即足以揚名天下,好不容易的學到,又怎能棄之如遺?

    ...Then which type of martial art should I specialize in?" By all rights, he should specialise in Ancient Tomb's Jade Maiden sutra, but thinking about how profound H7G's dog-beating stick was, the exquisite details of HYS's jade flute sword, wouldn't neglecting them be a pity? As for his godfather's toad stance, meridian reversal, 9 yin etc., each one by itself was sufficient to be famous throughout the world, it wasn't easy to learn them, how could they be abandoned?

    想了半天,突然間心念一動:「我何不取各派所長,自成一家?天下武功,均是由人所創,別人既然創得,我難道 就創不得?」

    Thinking for half a day, he suddenly thought 'Why don't I take the strengths of each art, and create my own? All martial arts originated from people, if others can create them, then why couldn't I?'

    楊過睡了半夜,次晨一早起來又想。七日之中,接連昏迷了五次。說要綜納諸門,自創一家,那是談何容易?以他 此時的識力修為固然絕難成功,那更不是十天半月間之事。但連想數日之後,恍然有悟,猛地明白諸般武術皆可為 我所用,既不能合而為一,也就不必強求,日後臨敵之際,當用則用,不必去想武功的出處來歷,也已與自創一派 想差無幾。

    YG slept through half the night, when he rose next morning he continued thinking. In 7 days, he lost consciousness 5 times. Regarding uniting multiple schools to form his own family of arts, it was easier said than done. At his current stage of experience and development it was already near-impossible to succeed, and it was also not a short-term goal. But after thinking for multiple days, he came to an understanding, suddenly understanding that the multiple arts could all be utilised by him, since they could not be combined into one, then there was no need to force the issue, when he encountered enemies later, he would use whatever was appropriate, no need to think about an art's origins, then that would already not be too different from establishing an art of his own.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Kwok View Post
    ,恍然有悟,猛地明白諸般武術皆可為 我所用,既不能合而為一,也就不必強求,日後臨敵之際,當用則用,不必去想武功的出處來歷,也 已與自創一派 想差無幾。
    The way JY wrote this, it is still like he never really fused them into a new art but he learnt them all and just mix their stances freely in a fight. e.g. each stance is still the original but he can follow up a DBS stance with a Jade Maiden stance etc etc.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

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    I feel that the Sad Palms was the culmination of all the skills Yeung Gor learned in the past. Yes, it was its own thing and not any of the previous arts he had learned, but I believe that Sad Palms fused much of Yeung Gor's previous martial arts knowledge into a new skill. I especially seem to see a good deal of Au Yeung Fung's martial arts in it, especially its weird, full-body attributes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    I feel that the Sad Palms was the culmination of all the skills Yeung Gor learned in the past. Yes, it was its own thing and not any of the previous arts he had learned, but I believe that Sad Palms fused much of Yeung Gor's previous martial arts knowledge into a new skill. I especially seem to see a good deal of Au Yeung Fung's martial arts in it, especially its weird, full-body attributes.
    That is exactly what it was. ZBT identified elements of the 9-yin hypnotic skill and OYF's toad stance in two of his stances, and YG remarked to HYS after their little contest that he must have noticed elements of his own skills incorporated into his new palm set.

    He was limited in what he could pull off with just one arm though, so he put the emphasis on inner power, and deliberately made the actual postures look sloppy and defenceless (e.g. arm behind the back, staring away into space etc.), presumably to confuse his opponents. It seems rather redundant though - a great would know better than to rashly attack his sloppy stances, and a non-great would be no match for him even without any deception involved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Kwok View Post
    That is exactly what it was. ZBT identified elements of the 9-yin hypnotic skill and OYF's toad stance in two of his stances, and YG remarked to HYS after their little contest that he must have noticed elements of his own skills incorporated into his new palm set.

    He was limited in what he could pull off with just one arm though, so he put the emphasis on inner power, and deliberately made the actual postures look sloppy and defenceless (e.g. arm behind the back, staring away into space etc.), presumably to confuse his opponents. It seems rather redundant though - a great would know better than to rashly attack his sloppy stances, and a non-great would be no match for him even without any deception involved.
    Custom-made to foil the Golden Wheel Monk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Custom-made to foil the Golden Wheel Monk.
    Even ZBT almost "useless" against YG Sad Palm which he could only defend😛😛😛😛

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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    Even ZBT almost "useless" against YG Sad Palm which he could only defend😛😛😛😛
    Sad Palms is an unusual martial art, and its shock factor is difficult to surmount upon first encounter (similar to how Au Yeung Fung's "messed up," backwards 9 Yum Jen Ging skill was hard to deal with at the Second Mt. Hua Sword Tournament). I think that given time, the more creative fighters such as East Heretic Wong Yerk See and Chow Bak Tung can figure it out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Sad Palms is an unusual martial art, and its shock factor is difficult to surmount upon first encounter (similar to how Au Yeung Fung's "messed up," backwards 9 Yum Jen Ging skill was hard to deal with at the Second Mt. Hua Sword Tournament). I think that given time, the more creative fighters such as East Heretic Wong Yerk See and Chow Bak Tung can figure it out.
    For HYS with his intelligence he might be could deal well with the "strange" of Sad Palm but not the "power" generated behind that style as evident during their contest which HYS couldn't stand "palm to palm" with YG so in the end he still lose IMHO..
    For ZBT same like HYS above he would easily "figure out" the stance secret but still would fall in "power" but since he have L/R hand skill he would catch up with YG in "hand to hand" but too bad his old age would be his "disadvantage" so in the end in the long fight YG still win😊😊😊😊

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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    For HYS with his intelligence he might be could deal well with the "strange" of Sad Palm but not the "power" generated behind that style as evident during their contest which HYS couldn't stand "palm to palm" with YG so in the end he still lose IMHO..
    For ZBT same like HYS above he would easily "figure out" the stance secret but still would fall in "power" but since he have L/R hand skill he would catch up with YG in "hand to hand" but too bad his old age would be his "disadvantage" so in the end in the long fight YG still win😊😊😊😊
    They're old men. Wong Yerk See and Chow Bak Tung must be around ninety at the end of ROCH. Naturally, they won't be as robust as a man in his mid-thirties.

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    Yeeeep YG "super human" physical strength is the main factor here..

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