Isn't inner power pretty conclusively more important than external technique?

[Ken Cheng]

Here's another thing to consider: before he built up his inner power by consuming the snake organs, Yeung Gor had already learned the external techniques of several Greats, including Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung, Ancient Tomb Sect Founder Lam Chiu Ying, West Poison Au Yeung Fung, North Beggar Hung 7 Gung, and East Heretic Wong Yerk See. In spite of knowing the external techniques of all these Greats, Yeung Gor was only a mid-level fighter until he acquired a tremendous boost of inner power from the snake organs. Only when his inner power reached that level was he able to knock on the door of Greathood himself.

[Doc Kwok]

The Mount Hua schism probably sums up this argument best:

Short Term: External Wins
Mid Term: Draw
Long Term: Internal Wins

I would take that with a pinch of salt, since it is more like:

Long Term: Internal Wins, provided the external guy who could probably wipe your entire faction out single-handedly isn't there.

In any case, the Hua Shan divide wasn't purely external vs internal (both sides acknowledged that both were important), but where the emphasis was. i.e. Should you emphasise the internal, such that even simple external techniques could be used to devastating effect, or should you concentrate on techniques, and slowly develop your internal power as a means to support those techniques?

It is not actually clear which philosophy produced the better results overall (the Qi faction won the final duel, but they cheated, and were pretty much wiped out anyway). Obviously, the best route would be - whatever best suits the practitioner. In temperament, LHC would be much better suited to the sword faction.

[Doc Kwok]

LHC getting KO instantly when RWX used inner power instead of swordplay).

RWX fully used his inner power in their sword contest, such that his sword thrusts sounded like thunder - he was not holding back! It was not enough to defeat LHC using DG9J because their swords never contacted. The roaring was a different application of inner power - in that sense, it should be considered more like an different external technique than inner power per se.

[Doc Kwok]

The importance of inner power also varies with the point in time the story was written. I think the tipping point was HSDS (or maybe the last chapter of ROCH?), with the appearance of people with monstrous inner power, but little in the way of fighting techniques. Before, although the importance of inner power was acknowledged, the main focus was on the martial arts.

All the greats had deep internal strength, but they were best known for their fighting ability. We don't even know what type of internal cultivation they practiced (except for Wang Chongyang maybe, but in his case, 'Quanzhen inner power' is pretty much defined as 'whatever WCY practiced', so we still don't really know anything about it). Even H7G, described as having reached the peak of external martial arts by ZBT, had profound inner power. 9 yin, although it contained powerful means to strengthen your inner power (though it doesn't seem to contain a full system of its own unlike 9 yang, at least in LOCH and ROCH), was exclusively coveted for its powerful martial arts, deep theory and the ability to 'counter all martial arts in the world', not for its inner power development.

[Western Eccentric]

Here's another thing to consider: before he built up his inner power by consuming the snake organs, Yeung Gor had already learned the external techniques of several Greats, including Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung, Ancient Tomb Sect Founder Lam Chiu Ying, West Poison Au Yeung Fung, North Beggar Hung 7 Gung, and East Heretic Wong Yerk See. In spite of knowing the external techniques of all these Greats, Yeung Gor was only a mid-level fighter until he acquired a tremendous boost of inner power from the snake organs. Only when his inner power reached that level was he able to knock on the door of Greathood himself.

The snake gallbladder only allowed him to have "super human physical strength" IMHO combining with "rotten training" in sea and water flood and "heal" his injury (from his arm chop and love toxic) but YG "base" internal art still 9 Yin/QZ..

[wkeej]

Am I right to assume that Wang Yu Yan know the most techniques? If she has great inner power, will it automatically qualify her to be a great fighter? Say to the level of DY, XZ or XF in DGSD.

[Ken Cheng]

Am I right to assume that Wang Yu Yan know the most techniques? If she has great inner power, will it automatically qualify her to be a great fighter? Say to the level of DY, XZ or XF in DGSD.

She knew theory, but had never thrown a punch or kicked anyone in her life. I could read every book in the world about basketball theory and memorize them back and forth, but if I never actually dribble and shoot, I'm not a basketball player.

[wkeej]

She knew theory, but had never thrown a punch or kicked anyone in her life. I could read every book in the world about basketball theory and memorize them back and forth, but if I never actually dribble and shoot, I'm not a basketball player.

Acceptable. In that case, can her cousin MRF be considered knowing the most techniques, but executing is a problem for him.

[wkeej]

Also, I think this was discussed somewhere. Who in JY cannon has the most internal power - XZ, Sweeper Monk, or ...?

[Snafu3721]

I think when we use XAJH as an example for external can be > than internal, we have to factor in a few things

As others mentioned before-- LHC actually had a lot of internal, the conflicting streams were not controllable but they allowed him protection and also bursts of performance (causing pain afterwards)

And one of the things we forget is the relative tier and achivement of LHC with DG9J-- basically, LHC was given a god tier external and his mastery was actually very high (placing him in a very elite league of fighters). But when we compare him to an equivalent on internal achievement such as someone who also has god tier internal with high mastery (ZWJ after QK bag)-- I would say that internal trumps external. ZWJ had the capacity to master so many more martial arts with so many additional benefits (passive abilities) of just having 9-yang. In theory he can probably roar LHC to death.

This is not to say external is not important at all:
Example: Given how much GJ improved with just low mastery of XL18P, or how a few pointers from H7G improved MNC immensely.

BUT, we need to compare the benefit of a certain lvl of external mastery RELATIVE to same level of internal mastery; and then determine which is more beneficial


I mean XZ was killing people with acorns! And those people had way better external techniques than XZ.

[CC]

RWX fully used his inner power in their sword contest, such that his sword thrusts sounded like thunder - he was not holding back! It was not enough to defeat LHC using DG9J because their swords never contacted. The roaring was a different application of inner power - in that sense, it should be considered more like an different external technique than inner power per se.

Hmm, I see your point but when he was using his sword to channel his internal power, then he was arguably also competing with external technique against DG9J though. So its not like internal couldnt beat external in this matchup but he wasnt using the optimal internal attack channel/method.

But the takeaway seems to be that if you had insufficient internal, a roar type IE attack is most likely going to KO you regardless of your external skills.

[Doc Kwok]

But the takeaway seems to be that if you had insufficient internal, a roar type IE attack is most likely going to KO you regardless of your external skills.

But how many people can actually do that? Off the top of my head, I can only think of three - Fang Zheng, Ren Woxing, and Xie Xun. Yang Guo could do an impressive cry too, but he didn't KO anyone with it - he made a pack of animals lose control of their bowels and terrified some third-rate martial artists. Zhang Wuji could make heavy bells ring by speaking in a normal voice, but again, he did not KO anyone with it (did XX teach him the Lion's Roar too?).

It seems to be a specific rare skill that needs high internal to work, but it is not something that just anyone with high inner power can pull off. In that sense, it is closer to something like 6MSJ.

[pannonian]

But how many people can actually do that? Off the top of my head, I can only think of three - Fang Zheng, Ren Woxing, and Xie Xun. Yang Guo could do an impressive cry too, but he didn't KO anyone with it - he made a pack of animals lose control of their bowels and terrified some third-rate martial artists. Zhang Wuji could make heavy bells ring by speaking in a normal voice, but again, he did not KO anyone with it (did XX teach him the Lion's Roar too?).

It seems to be a specific rare skill that needs high internal to work, but it is not something that just anyone with high inner power can pull off. In that sense, it is closer to something like 6MSJ.

The Shi brothers were KOd by Yang Guo's roar, with the exception of an injured Shi Shugang who was stunned. Shi Shugang, when healthy, had internal superior to Yelu Qi's. Among the animals, only the elephants weren't KOd, but they too were stunned. Everything else from tigers downwards were KOd.

[Western Eccentric]

Yeeeep even without "killing intention" YG could "injury" Ying Gu which in terms of martial arts better than YLQ/3rd Shi's..

[CC]

But how many people can actually do that? Off the top of my head, I can only think of three - Fang Zheng, Ren Woxing, and Xie Xun. Yang Guo could do an impressive cry too, but he didn't KO anyone with it - he made a pack of animals lose control of their bowels and terrified some third-rate martial artists. Zhang Wuji could make heavy bells ring by speaking in a normal voice, but again, he did not KO anyone with it (did XX teach him the Lion's Roar too?).

It seems to be a specific rare skill that needs high internal to work, but it is not something that just anyone with high inner power can pull off. In that sense, it is closer to something like 6MSJ.

Except for XX, did the rest have a specific named skill? I am thinking JY didnt try to overdo it because if all Ultra level fighters abused it, it would break the story many times. e.g. Xiao Feng at Juxian Zhuang.

Same with Ding's DecayingCorpse Poison. If it was used like in a video game, half the book would be dead.

I guess its the same problem with comic books (e.g. Supermans superspeed), if abused or used smart, there would be no plot left.

[Doc Kwok]

The Shi brothers were KOd by Yang Guo's roar, with the exception of an injured Shi Shugang who was stunned. Shi Shugang, when healthy, had internal superior to Yelu Qi's. Among the animals, only the elephants weren't KOd, but they too were stunned. Everything else from tigers downwards were KOd.

郭襄雖已塞住了耳朵，仍然震得她心旌搖蕩，如癡如醉，腳步站立不穩。幸好她自幼便修習父親所授的玄門正宗內 功，因此武功雖然尚淺，內功的根基卻扎得甚為堅實，遠勝於一般武林中的好手，聽了楊過這麼一嘯，總算沒有摔 倒。

Although GX had covered her ears, she was still shaken to the core, as if crazed or drunk. her feet became unsteady. Luckily she had learnt authentic Taoist inner power from her father from a young age, so that although her martial arts were still shallow, her inner power base was very firm, far exceeding the average decent wulin fighter, listening to YG roar, she managed not to fall over.

嘯聲悠悠不絕，只聽得人人變色，獸群紛紛摔倒，接著西山十鬼、史氏兄弟先後跌倒，只有十餘頭大象、史叔剛和 郭襄兩人勉強直立。那神鵰昂首環顧，甚有傲色。楊過心想這病夫內力不淺，我若再催嘯聲，硬生生將他摔倒，只 怕他要受劇烈內傷，當下長袖一揮，住口停嘯。

The roar continued without end, everyone listening paled, the animal horde fell over, then the Shanxi ten ghosts and Shi brothers fell over one after another, only ten elephants, Shi Shugang and Guo Xiang managed to remain standing with effort. The divine eagle looked on with its head held high, with a haughty attitude. YG thought that this sick person's inner power was not weak, if I continue to roar, forcefully knocking him over, then he would probably suffer serious internal injury, so with a wave of his sleeve, he stopped the roar.

過了片刻，眾人和群獸才慢慢站起。豺狼等小獸竟有被他嘯聲震暈不醒的，雪地中遍地都是群獸嚇出來的屎尿。群 獸不等史氏兄弟呼喝，紛紛夾著尾巴逃入了樹林深處，連回頭瞧一眼也都不敢。

After a moment, the people and animals slowly stood up. The smaller animals such as wolves had been knocked unconscious, the urine and faeces that had been scared out of the many animals was everywhere in the snow. The animals did not wait for the Shi brothers' commands, they rushed out into the depths of the forest with their tails between their legs, not daring to glance back.

JY was quite explicit - the roar dazed and shocked everyone, and they fell over. Once the roar stopped and they regained their composure, they got back up. Only smaller animals such as wolves were knocked unconscious outright.

[Doc Kwok]

Except for XX, did the rest have a specific named skill? I am thinking JY didnt try to overdo it because if all Ultra level fighters abused it, it would break the story many times. e.g. Xiao Feng at Juxian Zhuang.

方證大師眼見危機只在頃刻之間，可又不能出聲勸阻，洩漏了機關，當即快步入殿，大聲說道：「貴客在外，不可 爭鬧，別吵！」這「別吵」二字，是運起了少林派至高無上內功「金剛禪獅子吼」功夫，一股內家勁力，對準了桃 谷六仙噴去。

Reverend Fangzheng saw that disaster was imminent, but he could not dissuade or stop them verbally and give the game away, so he quickly entered, and loudly shouted: 'Important guests are outside, (you) cannot mess around, shut up!'. The words 'shut up', were delivered with the ultimate Shaolin neigong 'Diamond Buddhist Lion's Roar', a targeted burst of internal power was spat out towards the Peach Valley six fairies.

RWX's technique was not named. However, it seems less effective as it took a while to take effect, while FZ's roar knocked out the 6 fairies instantly (and the 6 were no weaklings either).

Same with Ding's DecayingCorpse Poison. If it was used like in a video game, half the book would be dead.

I guess its the same problem with comic books (e.g. Supermans superspeed), if abused or used smart, there would be no plot left.

It behaves like a smart bomb in video games. I could imagine YG charging towards the Mongolian army while roaring, knocking them down a thousand at a time, and have the Sung army follow behind to mop up the fallen soldiers...

[hyoyatika]

But how many people can actually do that? Off the top of my head, I can only think of three - Fang Zheng, Ren Woxing, and Xie Xun. Yang Guo could do an impressive cry too, but he didn't KO anyone with it - he made a pack of animals lose control of their bowels and terrified some third-rate martial artists. Zhang Wuji could make heavy bells ring by speaking in a normal voice, but again, he did not KO anyone with it (did XX teach him the Lion's Roar too?).

It seems to be a specific rare skill that needs high internal to work, but it is not something that just anyone with high inner power can pull off. In that sense, it is closer to something like 6MSJ.

Perhaps not every martial artist knew how to channel their internal via a "roar".

For instance, let's look at HYS, H7G and OYF. They were equals. During the competition between GJ and OYK and HYS went on to play this flute, neither OYF nor H7G seemed particular comfortable dealing with it. I can only surmise that they would rather take on HYS' TZST than that.

I am guessing trying to hurt your opponents via a roar/sound transmission was difficult to learn but also difficult to deal with as well.

[CC]

方證大師眼見危機只在頃刻之間，可又不能出聲勸阻，洩漏了機關，當即快步入殿，大聲說道：「貴客在外，不可 爭鬧，別吵！」這「別吵」二字，是運起了少林派至高無上內功「金剛禪獅子吼」功夫，一股內家勁力，對準了桃 谷六仙噴去。

是運起了少林派至高無上內功「金剛禪獅子吼」功夫

Right, Shaolin's ultimate untoppable internal kung fu... where does that put YJJ eh?