THe Ultimate Hero of JY

[Laviathan]

I for one have never said that Shi Potian is as good as Sweeper Monk or better than Xiao Feng or whatever. Frankly, I do not know how good Shi Potian is. I just know he is VERY GOOD, but how good...? Dunno...

But just killing two of the strongest martial artist of the era isn't really that big to a deal.

Uh, we're talking about the two best martial artists of one era.

Can Xiao Feng defeat Sweeper Monk and Tianshan Tonglao combined? No

Can Yang Guo beat both Guo Jing and Golden Wheel Monk? No

Can Linghu Chong take on Dongfang Bubai and Abbot Fangzheng together? No

Can Yuan Chengzhi kill Mu Renqing and Priest Yuzhenzi at the same time? No

Can Chen Jialuo best Yuan Shixiao and Shaolin monk Tianhong? No

These are just examples to describe how exceptional Shi Potian is in the Jin Yong universe.

But how good are the two Lords of Gallant Island? We don't know. We only know that their two disciples Zhang San and Li Si are invincible at the Mainland, and during the era of Ode to Gallantry, only Zhang San and Li Si are known to have mastered the skill of "Sealing Acupoints without physical contact" (lingkong dianxue). In DGSD, only people of Emperor Duan Zhengming's level or higher are able to perform such a feat. Yet Zhang San and Li Si are just two out of many students of Gallant Island. So, let's say that the Two Lords of Gallant Island are good enough to be the teachers of Emperor Duan Zhengming of DGSD.


But the Two Lords could not even scratch Shi Potian.

You can draw your own conclusion.

[TristeCoeur]

Laviathan, I'm not interested much in Xia Ke Xing and Si Po Tian, but I find your praises for him fascinating for some reason

[Laviathan]

Originally posted by TristeCoeur
Laviathan, I'm not interested much in Xia Ke Xing and Si Po Tian, but I find your praises for him fascinating for some reason

[Ren Wo Xing]

Originally posted by PJ
SPT is the man. To paraphrase Laviathan, SPT "killed" the 2 invincible fighterS of that time - definitely the 2 Greats of that time. He was considerably stronger than them. Because these 2 blocked the Shaolin gate one time, we can conclude they are very very very very mighty peeps. And of course they get squashed by SPT.

Even though I'm reading the novel in process, I always think that the 2 guys that blocked Shaolin should be on the same level as the best fighter of Smiling Proud Wanderer. Then to have someone kill them both is indeed quite a feat.

Not just the two 'Greats' of the time period...even two of their middle-ranked DISCIPLES were unchallenged in the mainland, meaning that they themselves might as well be the teachers of the Greats, with the Greats just being average pupils.

[PJ]

I'm not interested much in Xia Ke Xing and Si Po Tian

Why not? They got so much to offer

Not just the two 'Greats' of the time period...even two of their middle-ranked DISCIPLES were unchallenged in the mainland, meaning that they themselves might as well be the teachers of the Greats, with the Greats just being average pupils.

Yes, thank you for elaborating. Like Laviathan said we really don't know how SPT would compare with the others, but we know he is pretty darn powerful. I even get the impression that he stands out in XKX like Sweeper Monk stands out in DGSD. Again, not saying SPT =~ Sweeper monk but just the unique way they stand out above the rest.

Maybe someone can tell me if there are such superior standouts (1 per book) in other novels.

[KJ]

Originally posted by Laviathan
I for one have never said that Shi Potian is as good as Sweeper Monk or better than Xiao Feng or whatever. Frankly, I do not know how good Shi Potian is. I just know he is VERY GOOD, but how good...? Dunno...



Uh, we're talking about the two best martial artists of one era.

Can Xiao Feng defeat Sweeper Monk and Tianshan Tonglao combined? No

Can Yang Guo beat both Guo Jing and Golden Wheel Monk? No

Can Linghu Chong take on Dongfang Bubai and Abbot Fangzheng together? No

Can Yuan Chengzhi kill Mu Renqing and Priest Yuzhenzi at the same time? No

Can Chen Jialuo best Yuan Shixiao and Shaolin monk Tianhong? No

These are just examples to describe how exceptional Shi Potian is in the Jin Yong universe.

But how good are the two Lords of Gallant Island? We don't know. We only know that their two disciples Zhang San and Li Si are invincible at the Mainland, and during the era of Ode to Gallantry, only Zhang San and Li Si are known to have mastered the skill of "Sealing Acupoints without physical contact" (lingkong dianxue). In DGSD, only people of Emperor Duan Zhengming's level or higher are able to perform such a feat. Yet Zhang San and Li Si are just two out of many students of Gallant Island. So, let's say that the Two Lords of Gallant Island are good enough to be the teachers of Emperor Duan Zhengming of DGSD.


But the Two Lords could not even scratch Shi Potian.

You can draw your own conclusion.

But DFBB were able to take on Linghu Chong, RWX, and two others without being at a disadvantage, wouldn't he/she be considered a standout in that novel. This considering LHC not having internal strength and not being at full strength, with him having just learnt DuGu 9 stances.

Also, were Zhang San and Li Si the two top students, or were they just the average students.

[PJ]

The thing is, Do we know for sure that Lords L and M are stronger than their disciples? Because Guo Jing and Xiao Feng both can beat the crap out of their "teachers" (Qiu Chuji and Xuan Bei?).

[superboy]

But how good are the two Lords of Gallant Island? We don't know. We only know that their two disciples Zhang San and Li Si are invincible at the Mainland, and during the era of Ode to Gallantry, only Zhang San and Li Si are known to have mastered the skill of "Sealing Acupoints without physical contact" (lingkong dianxue). In DGSD, only people of Emperor Duan Zhengming's level or higher are able to perform such a feat. Yet Zhang San and Li Si are just two out of many students of Gallant Island. So, let's say that the Two Lords of Gallant Island are good enough to be the teachers of Emperor Duan Zhengming of DGSD.

But I don't think that you can really rate someone on that. It might just be a special skill like 1 Yang Finger. Like you could say that the Southern Emperor might be able to do it (not sure though), and the other Greats could have a harder time. For instance, people rate people in DGSD higher than the others becasue of feats such as injuring someone with blasts at 30 feet
are consider imposisble in the condor trilogy. Just defeating two best master of the era might not be enough because the proportion of their power in the era is different than people like Sweeper Monk and etc. They may just look powerful becasue every one else are too weak. IS there any specific feats that makes Shi Por Tian espectially powerful like shooting chi and etc.

[TigerWong]

Originally posted by superboy
Just defeating two best master of the era might not be enough because the proportion of their power in the era is different than people like Sweeper Monk and etc. They may just look powerful becasue every one else are too weak.

Rating someone based on their superiority to their peers can be useful in some cases. The argument of saying he/she is a lot better only because everyone around them is too weak can only be carried so far. After a while, it just pushes everyone else down to such a low level that it's ridiculous. I'm not saying that you don't need other concrete evidence as well, but it shouldn't be dismissed.

[Acidbeastonfire]

hmm...all this talk about shi potian...seems like an awesome character.

can anyone please advise on which serial adaptation of the story matches the novel most closely? gotta get my hands on it. the title in pinyin if possible.

thanks!

[superboy]

But what superioty do they show? Did they do anything very impressive that make them seems really powerful? The decline theory of JY is obviously on purpose, because there can't be so many coincidence with all of his novels. Since the Shi Por Tian's era happens even after LWC's era, generally speaking, everyone should be a lot weaker than people from the Condor Trilogy and DGSD. So there may be exeptions, but what in the novel suggests that? General characters of the novel should be weaker. Most people judge the novels' martial art gap by feats. Such as in the Condor Trilogy, jumping 30 feet (done by the 3 Saint) is said to be only done by first class martial artists, so I hypothesize that people like the Greats can be at around 45 feet or so. But XZ from DGSD can jump around 30 feet with around 3 times his own weight. That will show superioty. And QF can smash and kill powerful a martial artist from 30 feet just by applying 3 palms. That shows that they are above the people of the Condor Trilogy. So is there any impressive feats from Shi Por Tian?

[TigerWong]

I usually don't like to debate something unless I've read it, which I haven't, but there have been so many past discussions on SPT and I think I remember some of the stuff we talked about (barely ).

Even if you account for the fact that the general populace of wulin may be weaker, SPT is not just stronger.... he is a LOT stronger. Cheung Sam and Lee Say were the best fighters on the mainland. And according to Kenny, he feels that the gap between SPT and CS/LS were wider than the gap between a Great and someone like Yau Chi Gei. And he feels CS/LS were even more impressive than YCG. CS/LS were the best amongst the general fighting community. Their teachers were mythical figures who were able to block the gates of Shaolin (can you imagine YCG doing that even in the era of SoD?). SPT beat the teachers and wasn't even fully aware at the time.

Lava has said that it was stated in the novel that very few people in history have achieved SPT's level of power. Considering that OtG is one of JY's latter novels, it should point to SPT being a standout.

And as far as feats, I remember a lot being brought up but unfortunately I don't recall right now. Maybe some readers can share them again. I remember something vaguely about flying across the ocean....

Although I'm a strong proponent of coming to your own conclusions, I think it still says something that out of all the debates I've read between various JY experts on all sorts of topics dealing with fighter comparisons (experts don't even agree on something like XF > GJ), not once was there ever any disagreement or doubt that SPT is a superpower in the JY universe.

[duy]

I personally think SPT is definitelly the most powerful protagonist in JY's novels. However, i didn't enjoy the book that much, it was too simple, i guess. I dont know, i jus never like the book, the ending really kill it. SPT was jus too "not really smart", and his "parents" are idiot either. How can they not recognize their son; i dont think the possibility of having some guy look exactly like your son is really high. Plus, who is the real villain in the story? what is the real conflict? can some one clarify that for me.

[superboy]

Ummm....I never read the novel, so I can't say that I knew too much about SPT. It really depends on what JY meant by "few people". If it is within the novel (probably is), then you can pick quite a few people from DGSD since there are people that reached his level in history. Sweeper Monk is one of his kind, so you can count him higher than SPT, but people like TSTL, QF, DY, XZ are consider to be very rare in history too.

[Laviathan]

Zhang San and Li Si, when they were still teenagers, killed the leader of Qingcheng School, Priest Xushan. Priest Xushan was am accomplished martial artist, who was able to melt bronze with his hands by generating internal power.

Like Tigerwong said, in the book it was mentioned by the author himself that Shi Potian's internal power was almost unrivalled throughout history. Later, near the end of the novel, Lord Long and Lord Mu said that Shi Potian, having mastered Ode To Gallantry, is probably the most powerful fighter the world has ever known.

At the end of the novel, Shi Potian used a piece of wood to "jump" over the ocean and carried two persons back on shore. He did not really walk over water, but it was close... In the LOCH, such body techniques only existed in legends.

[superboy]

Wow, I feel that they seems awkwardly too powerful to be JY's characters. I wonder might it be a contradiction. Because I'm not sure if even Sweeper Mok can melt bronze with his bare hands, but how can he be weaker than teenage Zhang San and Li Si. That seems impossible.

[TigerWong]

Originally posted by superboy
Wow, I feel that they seems awkwardly too powerful to be JY's characters. I wonder might it be a contradiction. Because I'm not sure if even Sweeper Mok can melt bronze with his bare hands, but how can he be weaker than teenage Zhang San and Li Si. That seems impossible.

It's best to look at the overall trend and not really focus too much on one thing. Maybe melting bronze was a special characteristic of his technique. Maybe the Sweeper Monk can do the same too. Who knows? The point is that members of wulin during that time are not necessarily chumps, and so the fact that SPT is really that much better counts for something.

[Laviathan]

Originally posted by superboy
Wow, I feel that they seems awkwardly too powerful to be JY's characters. I wonder might it be a contradiction. Because I'm not sure if even Sweeper Mok can melt bronze with his bare hands, but how can he be weaker than teenage Zhang San and Li Si. That seems impossible.

Well, the two of them attacked Xushan after he melted the bronze amulets, so they really caught him by surprise. One-on-one, Xushan would not have been defeated by Zhang San and Li Si that easily, he might even have won for that matter.

And I agree with Tigerwong.

[superboy]

Is JY's revisions out yet for anyone to read? I would like to know is there any changes in terms of martial arts and how he amend some of his mistakes.

[PJ]

n/t