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Thread: DY's 6MSJ vs YD's 1YZ

  1. #1
    Senior Member superboy's Avatar
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    Default DY's 6MSJ vs YD's 1YZ

    If YD and DY are going to battle using just their finger skills, which
    one do you think will be the ultimate victor? YD got his experience and practice, while DY got a faster and deadlier technique (assuming if it's working).
    "I will punish the evil and protect the weak, superboy is in a winning streak. The sky's peak is what I seek"

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    Senior Member ToOn99's Avatar
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    1YZ is like 1/5 of 6MSJ since Duan Yu can release his qi through all of his fingers including his thumbs.
    Disappeared Into Unannoying Signature

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    Senior Member Dirt's Avatar
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    1 Deng. He, like Xiao Feng, is a warrior with a warrior's heart. Duan Yu doesn't have the heart to be a good fighter. Also, time an time again, it's been shown in Jin Yong's novels that it isn't just the kung fu, it's the fighter that matters: plenty of people have learned Xiang Lung 18 Zhang, but not everyone uses it as effectively as Xiao Feng.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Deun Chi Hing (1 Deng) was, in many ways, just as gentle-natured as Deun Yu. The difference, however, is that Deun Chi Hing was an enthusiastic practitioner of the martial arts while Deun Yu was an extremely reluctant practitioner of the martial arts. I wouldn't say that Deun Chi Hing had the same warrior mentality as Kiu Fung (not many people do), but he certainly had far more interest in the martial arts than his grandfather did.

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    Originally posted by Dirt
    1 Deng. He, like Xiao Feng, is a warrior with a warrior's heart. Duan Yu doesn't have the heart to be a good fighter. Also, time an time again, it's been shown in Jin Yong's novels that it isn't just the kung fu, it's the fighter that matters: plenty of people have learned Xiang Lung 18 Zhang, but not everyone uses it as effectively as Xiao Feng.
    Actually, other than with Xiao Feng, it's normally the person with the better martial arts who win the fights.

    Anyway, Duan Yu should be able to wipe the floor with One Light Monk. By the part of DGSD at Shaolin, Duan Yu was capable of using at least one sword consistently, and defeated MuRong Fu. I don't remember him using 6 Mai Shen Jian in a major fight afterwards, but his inner power grew since then. So his overall skills could only be better.

    Oh, and here's a good analogy comparing the two skills.

    6MSJ : YYZ as Automatic Rifle : BB Gun. The power difference between the two is ridiculously big.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Han Solo's Avatar
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    Actually by the end of the DGSD, DY seems to fully able to use 6MSJ pretty much as much as he wants to.

    The technical difference between 6MSJ and 1 yang finger is too much for Yi Deng to overcome DY, as 6MSJ is commonly held to be 'invisible' rays that can kill or harm ppl from long distance, whereas 1 Yang finger is rather just like a superior acupoint kung fu only.

    One more thing, DY's inner power >> Yi Deng's

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    Senior Member Xiao Feng's Avatar
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    For several reasons, Duan Yu would wipe the floor with Yi Deng.

    1) Speed - Don't think Yi Deng can match DY for speed, might not be able to hit DY even.

    2) Inner Power - DY > YD here not to mention DY has BMSG.

    3) Technique - 6MSJ is THE skill that I personally think is unstoppable in the right hands. Speed, Penetration, Distance = one heck of a skill. I mean how do you defend against it? Just imagine if XF learnt 6MSJ; THE Real Invincible East I kid you not. YYZ although one of the top skills around pales in comparison.

    Would also like to point out something, If I'm not mistaken, DY later on in DGSD had learnt how to harness his Qi and manipulate 6MSJ effectively. Wonder why so many of you think he was clueless. The fact is, at the end of DGSD...he was one of the best fighters around.

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    Senior Member Laviathan's Avatar
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    Actually by the end of the DGSD, DY seems to fully able to use 6MSJ pretty much as much as he wants to.

    If I'm not mistaken, DY later on in DGSD had learnt how to harness his Qi and manipulate 6MSJ effectively. Wonder why so many of you think he was clueless. The fact is, at the end of DGSD...he was one of the best fighters around.
    Nope, this was only in TVB's adaptation... In the novel, there were no indications that Duan Yu learned how to effectively use Liumai Shenjian in the end.

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    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    I always believed that 6MSJ doesn't _just_ depend on the cutting and piercing ability if its 'swords', or the fact that it is invisible, or that it is ranged.

    Powerful damaging ability and invisible long distance strikes (Xiao Feng's palm blast, Jiu Mo Zhi's Nian Hua Zhi, Xu Zhu's Life Death Talisman and palm strikes) are there in other kung fu as well. And its not as if 6MSJ outranges some of these long distance strikes.

    Part of 6MSJ's deadliness should also be attributed to the actual 'sword' strokes itself. Viewed solely from the 'sword' techniques point of view, its probably a very advanced art comparable to the other top JY sword skills at least. But not much detail is given in the novel.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Xiao Feng's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Laviathan
    Nope, this was only in TVB's adaptation... In the novel, there were no indications that Duan Yu learned how to effectively use Liumai Shenjian in the end.

    hmmm, must have been mislead by them damn comics ...still love them though

  11. #11
    Senior Member Xiao Feng's Avatar
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    Default Re: .

    Originally posted by CC
    I always believed that 6MSJ doesn't _just_ depend on the cutting and piercing ability if its 'swords', or the fact that it is invisible, or that it is ranged.

    Powerful damaging ability and invisible long distance strikes (Xiao Feng's palm blast, Jiu Mo Zhi's Nian Hua Zhi, Xu Zhu's Life Death Talisman and palm strikes) are there in other kung fu as well. And its not as if 6MSJ outranges some of these long distance strikes.

    Part of 6MSJ's deadliness should also be attributed to the actual 'sword' strokes itself. Viewed solely from the 'sword' techniques point of view, its probably a very advanced art comparable to the other top JY sword skills at least. But not much detail is given in the novel.
    on
    If you were to compare the plus point of 6MSJ, of course there would be other skills in the hands of certain fighters who could do this ie. XF could pull of the long range palm strike with considerable force etc. BUT the combination of the speed of the technique in making a strike and the strike itself, the range of attack and its obvious flexibility of execution makes it THE best skill I believe. No set moves or combination, no set variations, no set patterns. Unpredictability and flexibility....how do you defend against it?

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    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    What the... even GJ's palm blast went out over 20 feet. 6MSJ doesn't go out more than a few meters, and this is with superior internal energy (stupid absorbing skills). As for speed, XF covered 140 meters in a flash with his palm attack. Flexibility? 6MSJ can do exactly ONE thing: kill. At least with a palm you can reduce the force of it.

    6MSJ is indeed an extremely powerful skill, but it's not all-powerful. Frankly, I firmly believe that XF would be capable of defeating DY. MRF is too caught up in the technique and didn't know how to handle DY (DY's lightness kung fu just made it worse), XF would realise that DY didn't know any real martial arts and use that against DY (IF they were to fight).

    Even if the "blade" of 6MSJ is unblockable, invisible and is very fast, that doesn't make it invincible. DY most definitely wasn't able to hold the blade for more than a rather short burst. And he has quite insane internal energy from absorbing so much of it (nothing compared XZ but that doesn't count). If you can't even sustain the blade, a properly done feint could cause you to "waste" the blade and leave you momentarily vulnerable... not good.

    In addition, this skill requires so much expenditure of internal energy, all one would have to do is avoid until the practicioner is drained. AND since it's range even from DY is only a few meters, it's completely possible.

    DY's lightness kungfu definitely helped him. Without it, his head would've been crushed 6MSJ or not. He's a lucky bum.

    In any case, 6MSJ is still a sword. If you don't use sword techniques or apply the theory to your attacks, you're just someone flailing a super sharp weapon and can be disarmed by someone with skill.

    In any case, what applies to 6MSJ applies to all other martial arts, the practicioner is far more important that the skill.

  13. #13
    Senior Member superboy's Avatar
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    What the... even GJ's palm blast went out over 20 feet. 6MSJ doesn't go out more than a few meters, and this is with superior internal energy (stupid absorbing skills). As for speed, XF covered 140 meters in a flash with his palm attack. Flexibility? 6MSJ can do exactly ONE thing: kill. At least with a palm you can reduce the force of it.

    6MSJ is indeed an extremely powerful skill, but it's not all-powerful. Frankly, I firmly believe that XF would be capable of defeating DY. MRF is too caught up in the technique and didn't know how to handle DY (DY's lightness kung fu just made it worse), XF would realise that DY didn't know any real martial arts and use that against DY (IF they were to fight).

    Even if the "blade" of 6MSJ is unblockable, invisible and is very fast, that doesn't make it invincible. DY most definitely wasn't able to hold the blade for more than a rather short burst. And he has quite insane internal energy from absorbing so much of it (nothing compared XZ but that doesn't count). If you can't even sustain the blade, a properly done feint could cause you to "waste" the blade and leave you momentarily vulnerable... not good.

    In addition, this skill requires so much expenditure of internal energy, all one would have to do is avoid until the practicioner is drained. AND since it's range even from DY is only a few meters, it's completely possible.

    DY's lightness kungfu definitely helped him. Without it, his head would've been crushed 6MSJ or not. He's a lucky bum.

    In any case, 6MSJ is still a sword. If you don't use sword techniques or apply the theory to your attacks, you're just someone flailing a super sharp weapon and can be disarmed by someone with skill.

    In any case, what applies to 6MSJ applies to all other martial arts, the practicioner is far more important that the skill.
    But the problem is how you are going to dodge it. Although I agree QF will eventually beat DY, I think even QF will need to use effort if he are to try to dodge the beams. You might be more tire than DY afterward if you just jump around. So I don't think waiting him to use up all his energy is a good plan. Most people would get hit within one or two strike. And when did GJ attacked from 20 feet? Winds doesn't count, and that is no style of GJ's. And you do know that the palms of QF were only striking from 30 feet right? He were charging from 140 feet only. Plus I always thought that 6MSJ is a piercing blade right, not a cutting one. So you won't need to sustain it for too long. It's just call 6MSJ, it isn't any sword skill right? I agree that the practicer is mostly more important than the skill, but the point is that he's already better than MRF with only the use of that skill. So don't know if YD can defeat him or not, since 1YZ is his best skill.
    "I will punish the evil and protect the weak, superboy is in a winning streak. The sky's peak is what I seek"

  14. #14
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    6MSJ is a way to generate chi blades from six fingers. Even DY, with his great inner energy, cannot sustain it long enough for it to be anything other than a short burst. Only in TVB is it just a "laser gun".

    Winds do count, the pressure of the wind is enough to force DY (or another martial artist) to cover his face or wince a bit and that's an opening.

    GJ attack OYF from a distance before they came together in the beginning of ROCH.

    XF charged in from 140 feet, but he released his first palm out the set of three in the one stance at 140 feet.

    If you watch the fingers, you'll be able to tell where the blade is.

    MRF is way too caught up in the details of stances. He may be a genius at learning them and have the ability to use a huge number of awesome skills, but I think he sucks (well, not sucks but he's wasting a lot of potential).

    Dodging the "beam" is considerably easier to using the said beams. 6MSJ requires the practicioner to expel pure chi meaning that even if you had a lot, you'll run out quickly. Also, since the beam isn't more than a couple meters long at best, feinting then staying out of that range isn't as hard as you would think.

    Of course, it's much more difficult with DY since DY has his stupidly good lightness kungfu that doesn't require any practice at all.

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    Senior Member superboy's Avatar
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    OYF didn't really got attacked, he only felt a gust of strong wind when GJ tried to attack him with his plams. I bet even MRF can blow a gusts of wind, does that mean he can defeat DY? And does that make YD's 1YD is ineffectve in the Condor Trilogy if some blow winds at his face? No. I don't know how much toll the uses of 6MSJ is, but you're going to get hit sooner or later if you're just dodging. XF released a palm from 140 feet, but his palms can't reach that far. He charged that combined it with another 2 palms. DCQ was standing at 30 feet or so from QF during the time when the palms are really used to attack him. I estimated his 3 palms can reach a bit over 60 feet at least.
    "I will punish the evil and protect the weak, superboy is in a winning streak. The sky's peak is what I seek"

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    Senior Member superboy's Avatar
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    And are 6MSJ being as blades in the novel?
    "I will punish the evil and protect the weak, superboy is in a winning streak. The sky's peak is what I seek"

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    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    You don't understand what I mean. The wind force is enough of a distraction for openings to be made. As an attack, it's only good against someone much weaker.

    And you're still missing the most important part: 6MSJ is no more a long ranged technique than any other sword art would. Even with DY's great internal energy, it doesn't go out more than at most a few meters, and only for a short burst. Since you can see where his fingers are, you can tell where the blade is (just like you can with a projectile). As long as you do not know true sword theories (not necessarily techniques though), you can be defeated by someone with more skill (but inferior techniques).

    And the particular stance that XF used is Dragon without Regrets. This move _consists_ of three palms where the power builds to unimaginable levels at the third palm (or more in GJ's case, he seems to have increased the number of palms but keeping the overall power using 9 Yin theories).

    In any case, what are you trying to argue? I'm simply stating that 6MSJ has quite a bit of its own limitations where someone with equal skill and another technique _may_ be able to beat the 6MSJ user.

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    Senior Member superboy's Avatar
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    Of course 6MSJ do have it's limitation, but I'm not sure so much about blowing winds on his face. Of course since we know DY can at least dodge it and the opponent still need to find an opening in order to make his move or wind palm. But if you are only able to move have way before DY see you again, you'll probably get hit since you're a close target. Just trying to say that it's easier say than done for most people. And QF's body was about 30 feet from DQC when he used his second and third Dragon without Regrets.
    "I will punish the evil and protect the weak, superboy is in a winning streak. The sky's peak is what I seek"

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    Senior Member Battosai's Avatar
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    It isn't at all clear whether 6MSJ is a mere unblockable invisible sword, however. I'll have to agree with CC, who's actually read the whole novel BTW, that it must've been more than that. CC has suggested the following:

    Part of 6MSJ's deadliness should also be attributed to the actual 'sword' strokes itself. Viewed solely from the 'sword' techniques point of view, its probably a very advanced art comparable to the other top JY sword skills at least. But not much detail is given in the novel.
    Only if this were true can XF's reactions be understood. It was said in the novel that 6MSJ was the only skill XF thought he couldn't counter or defeat. A mere invisible light saber, one that constantly blinks in and out due to high energy expenditure, shouldn't have impressed XF that much. No other skill did XF fear or respect thusly.

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    maybe Xiao Feng think that 6MSJ can cut through his palm's energy strike, which could be said his most power styles. Like no one actually dare to even touch his energy strike because it would result in great damage.

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