(ROCH) Gwok Jing vs. Cheung Mo Gei

[Laviathan]

Originally posted by Dirt
Also, everyone rags on Wu Ji for being unsure of himself or not being able to figure things out in a fight.

But, was Guo Jing any better in LOCH?

Yes, he was.

Was Yang Guo any better before his Heavy Iron Sword training?

Yes, he was.

To me, Wu Ji lacked experience and proper training but not ability.

In most of Jin Yong's novels, the heroes lacked experience, proper training AND ability, but they still managed to kick some ***. Wuji had many factors in favour of him, but he still performed mediocre.

[Ardor]

Originally posted by Dirt
So, does anybody think that ZWJ would have been able to figure out the Kun Lun formation after learning Tai Chi?

Also, everyone rags on Wu Ji for being unsure of himself or not being able to figure things out in a fight.

But, was Guo Jing any better in LOCH?

Was Yang Guo any better before his Heavy Iron Sword training?

To me, Wu Ji lacked experience and proper training but not ability.

So the real question is:

At 20-25 years of age, between Guo Jing, Yang Guo and Zhang Wu Ji. Who would win?

GJ and YG could hold some ground when they fought against superior fighters(namely QQR and JLGS) at that age while ZWJ had trouble fighting inferior fighters. WITH the Heavy Iron Sword, YG could defeat JLGS who is give or take a Great level fighter. At that age, YG would win, but not without the Heavy Iron Sword.

In terms of internal energy and ZWJ definitely wins, but in a fight, he would have trouble fighting these "inferior" martial artists(YG and GJ).

[rabadi]

Originally posted by Dirt
By 100 moves, Zhang Wu Ji would have learned the complete 18 Dragon Subdueing Palms and Vacant Fist and used it back at Guo Jing. Can you imagine 9 Yang Shen Gong powering Xiang Long Shi Ba Zhang? Wow.

How did you get that conclusion about ZWJ learning GJ's martial arts by 100 moves? Any evidence ZWJ might be able to do so?

[Ren Wo Xing]

Originally posted by Dirt
So, does anybody think that ZWJ would have been able to figure out the Kun Lun formation after learning Tai Chi?

Also, everyone rags on Wu Ji for being unsure of himself or not being able to figure things out in a fight.

But, was Guo Jing any better in LOCH?

Was Yang Guo any better before his Heavy Iron Sword training?

To me, Wu Ji lacked experience and proper training but not ability.

So the real question is:

At 20-25 years of age, between Guo Jing, Yang Guo and Zhang Wu Ji. Who would win?

Guo Jing: Uh, yeah, he was. Consider his fights vs Mei Chaofeng, Ou Yangke, and his observation of the Big Dipper Formation.

Yang Guo: Uh, yeah, he was . Consider his fights with....actually, just about everyone. With a partial Dog-Beating Stick, he was soundly defeating HD (until HD complained that he should be using the martial arts that XLN taught him), and he ended up defeating both of them. Various other fights are good examples as well.

Zhang Wuji had the best internal energy manual of the time (Jiu Yang), the best energy manipulation ability (Qian Kun Da Noi Yi), and was able to execute, technique-wise Taiji Quan and Taiji Jian later on, both of which can be considered two of the best technical fighting 'stances' of that time as well.

ZWJ had the best in EVERYTHING, yet he repeatedly had difficulty fighting WEAKER opponents. For example, in his fight with Kong Sheng, initially, he was raked on the shoulders once; all he could do was retreat (due to his superior internal energy) repeatedly, in order to watch and see the techniques of LZG. Do you think he would be able to do that to GJ or YG?

[CC]

Originally posted by Dirt
. Can you imagine 9 Yang Shen Gong powering Xiang Long Shi Ba Zhang? Wow.

Thats going to be nothing compared to the Dragon Palms that was powered by 70 years of Bei Ming, 80 years of Xiao Wu Xiang Gong and 90 years of Ba Hwang Wei Wo Du Zun + whatever addition Xu Zhu got from his own training.

[atlantean0208]

Originally posted by rabadi
How did you get that conclusion about ZWJ learning GJ's martial arts by 100 moves? Any evidence ZWJ might be able to do so?

how do you think he can learn dragon claw so easily? if you know the answer, than you know the answer to your question

The longer the fight between GJ and ZWJ, it will be a disadvantage to GJ, so if GJ have to fight until 1000 moves, you can consider that GJ will have his *ss kicked badly by ZWJ.

For GJ to defeat ZWJ, he have to use the 18 dragon palm directly, but then the QDKNY and the 9 Yang can easily absorb the chi and return them back to GJ.....

[Candide]

It's close to impossible to learn the Dragon Palms from just observing the moves. The Dragon Palms themselves are very simple, some even look silly (LOCH , the part where HQG taught GJ the last 3 palms right in front of OYK). The secret of the Dragon Palms is its philosophy and the way the user uses his inner power, moving qi from one place to another on his body. That cannot be observed.

then the QDKNY and the 9 Yang can easily absorb the chi and return them back to GJ.....

They sure can... unless you know how they work.

QKDNY will not work against someone who has equivalent or greater inner power. ZWJ would not be able to redirect GJ's strikes against himself, that would be suicidal for ZWJ, for their inner power would be equivalent.

For example, in his fight with Kong Sheng, initially, he was raked on the shoulders once; all he could do was retreat (due to his superior internal energy) repeatedly, in order to watch and see the techniques of LZG.

I think that it's not fair to conclude so. At that time, ZWJ didn't know any fighting technique, hence he had to observe KS's. Other examples would be better Like when he fought the 3 Persians. He was hopeless in that one.

[atlantean0208]

Originally posted by Candide
It's close to impossible to learn the Dragon Palms from just observing the moves. The Dragon Palms themselves are very simple, some even look silly (LOCH , the part where HQG taught GJ the last 3 palms right in front of OYK). The secret of the Dragon Palms is its philosophy and the way the user uses his inner power, moving qi from one place to another on his body. That cannot be observed.



They sure can... unless you know how they work.

QKDNY will not work against someone who has equivalent or greater inner power. ZWJ would not be able to redirect GJ's strikes against himself, that would be suicidal for ZWJ, for their inner power would be equivalent.



I think that it's not fair to conclude so. At that time, ZWJ didn't know any fighting technique, hence he had to observe KS's. Other examples would be better Like when he fought the 3 Persians. He was hopeless in that one.

don't you think the yin energy of GJ can be easily be absorbed or countered using the yang energy of ZWJ

when ZWJ is fighting with someone, he is not just merely observing other people moves, however its the QKDNY that give him the ability to see through other people moves and at the same time can find the weaknesses in the moves.

From Meh translation:

Zhang WuJi by now had already figured out the workings of the Dragon Claw. He found no weaknesses, but Qian Kun Da Nuo Yi can create weaknesses from any type of forms. He thought, “At this time, I can easily kill him. But Shaolin has always held a great reputation, and this monk is one of the three most important people in Shaolin. If I beat him today, where is the face for Shaolin?



so like what I said previously, GJ can't win the fight if its until 1000 moves like someone have said previously....

[Candide]

don't you think the yin energy of GJ can be easily be absorbed or countered using the yang energy of ZWJ

You're assuming that 9 Yin is yin which is false. 9 Yin, like all other Taoist inner energy art, is neutral.

when ZWJ is fighting with someone, he is not just merely observing other people moves, however its the QKDNY that give him the ability to see through other people moves and at the same time can find the weaknesses in the moves.

The Shaolin monk had about 1/20 of ZWJ energy. He could kill him easily, no doubt. All it took ZWJ would be a crappy noname palm fully powered by 9 Yang. GJ had equal inner energy, it's a completely different story. ZWJ didn't know any advanced palm technique good enough to counter the Dragon Palms.

The part about QKDNY finding weaknesses is just relative. When dealing with crappy techniques, sure. However you must remember that QKDNY is based on the philosophy of the Xinjiang region, which in JY novels is not as advanced as the Central Plain's philosophy. QKDNY is clearly below I Ching and other advanced teachings of the Central Plain, according to JY. It will certainly lose against the Hua San, Kun Lun formation, which is based on the two ancient books that the I Ching is also based on. Now, Dragon Palms are based on the I Ching. It's a wild guess to say that the Dragon Palms will beat QKDNY certainly, but in theory, the Dragon Palms are already more advanced.

Edit: examples: ZWJ's QKDNY could not find flaws in:

- ZZR's unorthodox 9 Yin
- The 3 Shaolin Elders kungfus
- The Hua San, Kun Lun formation - although he later realised that these 4 people hadn't practiced it to perfection and their timings weren't good enough.

Additionally, if nobody could find a flaw in XF"s Dragon Palms in DGSD, after being refined by Xu Zhu with all the great palm techniques from XiaoYao school, and if nobody could find a flaw in HQG's DP and GJ's DP in LOCH and ROCH, I wouldn't bet on QKDNY finding a flaw in the Dragon Palms and defeating GJ.

As for the 1000 moves thing, I bet GJ would knock out ZWJ long before that. ZWJ was almost killed by the 3 Persians in less than 100 moves if ZM didn't risk her life saving him.

[atlantean0208]

- so you said Dragon Claw is a crappy technique?

- most of your example is ZWJ fighting more than one, but then our discussion is based on 1 ZWJ vs 1 GJ (not 3 or 4 GJ). Even GJ with his ability will have a problem when fighting more than 1 fighter with advance martial arts.

[Candide]

Originally posted by atlantean0208
- so you said Dragon Claw is a crappy technique?

It's not. The evidence is that ZWJ admitted that he couldn't defeat the monk using anything else other than his own Dragon Claw, and only because he was faster (due to higher inner power) that he could win.

- most of your example is ZWJ fighting more than one, but then our discussion is based on 1 ZWJ vs 1 GJ (not 3 or 4 GJ). Even GJ with his ability will have a problem when fighting more than 1 fighter with advance martial arts.

Dude, you know how crappy the 3 Persians were ? How can you possibly compare a Persian messenger to GJ or any Great ???

As for GJ, he fought GWM and other top Mongolian fighters and was gaining the upper hand when YG betrayed him and he was injured while rescuing the bastard. He also fought both QQR and OYF at the same time when he was a young lad in LOCH and could keep up pretty well. In the same novel, he also fought Wanan Hongli fighters (4 of them) at the same time or the 4 disciples of Yideng. GJ to those guys individually was the same as ZWJ to the Persian fighters individually (or any other person he fought in HSDS) yet GJ won all of those battles comfortably while ZWJ almost got killed. Next, in ROCH, GJ fought 108 of Quanzhen Taoists and was controlling their formation... There are probably more examples.

[Dirt]

Originally posted by Laviathan
In most of Jin Yong's novels, the heroes lacked experience, proper training AND ability, but they still managed to kick some ***. Wuji had many factors in favour of him, but he still performed mediocre. [/B]

Xiao Feng - Said in DGSD to have been trained since very young by the leaders of Shaolin and Beggar's Clan.

Xu Zhu - Received (albeit only a short period of time) intimate knowledge and hard training by Tian Shan Tong Lao into the intricacies of her martial arts.

Duan Yu - Received virtually no formal training and, quite frankly, it showed.

Guo Jing - Received extensive training from Hong Qi Gong. Also was quite an accomplished wrestler growing up.

Yang Guo - Received formal training into the art of the sword (WCY's and LCY's) and having learned both, I believe, helped him in being able to 'figure out' the Heavy Iron Sword.

All these characters were able to learn a very high art from a master martial artist (except Duan Yu).

[TaiHan]

Originally posted by Dirt
Xiao Feng - Said in DGSD to have been trained since very young by the leaders of Shaolin and Beggar's Clan.

Xu Zhu - Received (albeit only a short period of time) intimate knowledge and hard training by Tian Shan Tong Lao into the intricacies of her martial arts.

Duan Yu - Received virtually no formal training and, quite frankly, it showed.

Guo Jing - Received extensive training from Hong Qi Gong. Also was quite an accomplished wrestler growing up.

Yang Guo - Received formal training into the art of the sword (WCY's and LCY's) and having learned both, I believe, helped him in being able to 'figure out' the Heavy Iron Sword.

All these characters were able to learn a very high art from a master martial artist (except Duan Yu).

ZWJ also recieved a few month training from Z3F, but he was only capable of matching 2 Yuan Ming Elder. Even by the end of the novel, he couldn't beat them.

don't you think the yin energy of GJ can be easily be absorbed or countered using the yang energy of ZWJ

Yin and Yang. Neither of the two is stronger than the other. They both have their advantages of over the other.

Can you imagine 9 Yang Shen Gong powering Xiang Long Shi Ba Zhang? Wow.

9 Yang and HL18Z could be said opposite in nature. 9 Yang method is attack after the opponent move, and HL18Z tell to attack first. 9 Yang method is too use soft over hard. While HL18Z tell to use hard to scare the opponent and overwhelm the opponent.
The best internal energy training that is best for the HL18Z is probably physical training like XF.

[superboy]

I'll bet my money any day that GJ will beat ZWJ without much problem. ZWJ's QKDLY gives him a better view in peoples techniques and create flaws, but he still shows problems dealing with weaker opponents. Therefore, it doesn't guarenttee anything. Even if GJ and him needed to over 1000 moves, still don't see how ZWJ will have any advantage since GJ shouldn't have any less internal energy trhan ZWJ. ZWJ makes some bad decisions in battles sometimes.

[rabadi]

Originally posted by atlantean0208
how do you think he can learn dragon claw so easily? if you know the answer, than you know the answer to your question

The longer the fight between GJ and ZWJ, it will be a disadvantage to GJ, so if GJ have to fight until 1000 moves, you can consider that GJ will have his *ss kicked badly by ZWJ.

For GJ to defeat ZWJ, he have to use the 18 dragon palm directly, but then the QDKNY and the 9 Yang can easily absorb the chi and return them back to GJ.....

18 Dragon Subduing Palm is one of the two most treasured martial arts of the Beggar Clan. I do not think that the Dragon Claw is the most treasured one of Shaolin. Hence, while I DO NOT underestimate Dragon Claw at all, I also do not think you can compare learning Dragon Claw and learning 18 Dragon Subduing Palm by observing being the same. In DGSD, after all Abbot Xuan Ci was about to use Grand Titan Palm (Da Jing Gang Zhang), not Dragon Claw, to face YTZ whom he thought learnt 18 Dragon Subduing Palm. While this may not mean anything, it PROBABLY means this Grand Titan Palm technique is better than the Dragon Claw (I just make an assumption, I do not know for sure, please don't kill me if I am wrong ).

I do not say ZWJ can or cannot defeat GJ, but I think if ZWJ wants to fight GJ he has to use other methods instead of trying to copy 18 Dragon Subduing Palm.

[TaiHan]

I think the strongest technique of Shaolin is the 72 technique. A technique in there could be said to be equal to HL18Z. Dragon Claw isn't shaolin strongest technique. Also it is just external chin na, there is nothing internal wise.

[superboy]

Yeah, how the heck is he suppose to copy the internal energy part of HL28Z. He can pose all the stances out, but the power will not be the same.

[Laviathan]

Originally posted by Dirt
Xiao Feng - Said in DGSD to have been trained since very young by the leaders of Shaolin and Beggar's Clan.

Xu Zhu - Received (albeit only a short period of time) intimate knowledge and hard training by Tian Shan Tong Lao into the intricacies of her martial arts.

Duan Yu - Received virtually no formal training and, quite frankly, it showed.

Guo Jing - Received extensive training from Hong Qi Gong. Also was quite an accomplished wrestler growing up.

Yang Guo - Received formal training into the art of the sword (WCY's and LCY's) and having learned both, I believe, helped him in being able to 'figure out' the Heavy Iron Sword.

Xiao Feng - It was said that due to his unique talent he could defeat opponents who were more experienced, stronger in internal power, or who had better techniques than him. I don't see Wuji doing that...

Guo Jing - Prior to meeting Hong Qigong, he still fought to a draw with Yang Kang who had received better training than him.

Yang Guo - Huodu was more experienced than him, had stronger internal power, received better training from a better teacher (Golden Wheel Monk should be a better teacher than Dragon Girl)... Huodu had everything in favour of him, but he was still defeated by Yang Guo.

Hu Fei - Learned his martial arts from a book.

Di Yun - His teacher did not pass the true transmission unto him, instead tried to deceive him.

Linghu Chong - Lacked experience, fighting abilities and training (the kind of training Yue Buqun gave him did not suit him) prior in meeting Feng Qingyang, but still managed to win from Tian Boguang with wits.

Shi Potian - Only had internal power with no fighting skills to back it.

Yuan Chengzhi - As a small kid without the teachings of a great master he was already able to take on grown up men.

To me, Wu Ji lacked experience and proper training but not ability.

All these characters were able to learn a very high art from a master martial artist (except Duan Yu).

Dirt, what exactly are you trying to prove? Do you want to tell me that Wuji has great martial arts abilities after having learned Nine Yang, Qiankun Danuoyi, Taiji and Persian Holy Fire? I already know that.

Somehow you want to compare Wuji with the other characters but it seems that you don't know how to compare.

If we take the inexperienced Wuji without proper training AND skills and we compare him with an inexperienced, untrained, no-skill Guo Jing/Yang Guo/Linghu Chong/any other main character, we will get the conclusion = Wuji will be defeated by everyone, except for maybe Duan Yu and Xuzhu.

If we take an inexperienced Wuji without proper training WITH superduper martial arts skills and we compare him with an inexperienced main character WITH martial arts skills, the conclusion = Wuji will surely be defeated by Xiao Feng, Guo Jing and Yang Guo, he will probably be beaten by all other characters (although Wuji's martial arts skills are better than all of them) as well except for maybe Duan Yu and Di Yun.

If we take an experienced Wuji with proper training with superpowers (end of HSDS) and we compare him with a character at his best, the conclusion = Wuji will STILL be beaten by Xiao Feng, Guo Jing and Yang Guo.

Or are you just trying to say that for someone who did not receive any proper training (pre-Zhang Sanfeng) that Wuji is not doing that bad?

[rabadi]

Originally posted by TaiHan
I think the strongest technique of Shaolin is the 72 technique. A technique in there could be said to be equal to HL18Z. Dragon Claw isn't shaolin strongest technique. Also it is just external chin na, there is nothing internal wise.

Is Dragon Claw one of the 72 Shaolin Technique?

[superboy]

I think Dragon claw is one of the 72 arts. I think JMZ even used it while fighting XZ. It's not really that special to me.