(ROCH) Gwok Jing vs. Cheung Mo Gei

[Ken Cheng]

A few nights ago, TristeCouer and I had a conversation on ICQ about what would happen if the ROCH Gwok Jing battled Cheung Mo Gei.

We agreed that Gwok Jing would likely emerge as the victor, but it took us awhile to figure out how long the fight would go. Initially, we believed the battle might go on an entire day (as the battle between the Golden Wheel Monk and Kau Cheen Yan in ROCH did), but we finally concluded that Gwok Jing should pull out the victory in about 1000 moves.

The victory went to Gwok Jing because although he and Cheung Mo Gei had comparable inner power levels, Gwok Jing had better fighting techniques and more importantly, a better warrior's mentality than Cheung Mo Gei did.

Thoughts?

[ToOn99]

We dont really know how far ZWJ would improve after the end of HSDS. supposed he learned rigorously, by the age of 40+ he might surpass GJ in ROCH.

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by ToOn99
We dont really know how far ZWJ would improve after the end of HSDS. supposed he learned rigorously, by the age of 40+ he might surpass GJ in ROCH.

We're keeping it within the parameters of what we know, Toon . . . not "what if" scenarios that could build upon each other to infinity.

[ToOn99]

If u compare ZWJ at the end of HSDS and GJ in ROCH, I think its a bit unfair. Considering at that time, GJ already had 30 - 40 years energy cultivation,plus experience in a lot of battle, while ZWJ probably just reached his early 20s with some great battle experience.

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by ToOn99
If u compare ZWJ at the end of HSDS and GJ in ROCH, I think its a bit unfair. Considering at that time, GJ already had 30 - 40 years energy cultivation,plus experience in a lot of battle, while ZWJ probably just reached his early 20s with some great battle experience.

Each was the best active warrior in his respective era, and while the advantage does go to Gwok Jing, Cheung Mo Gei certainly isn't a pushover who'd fold quickly. TristeCouer and I estimated that the fight would progress to about 1000 moves before a victor would be decided...possibly more.

[superboy]

We dont really know how far ZWJ would improve after the end of HSDS. supposed he learned rigorously, by the age of 40+ he might surpass GJ in ROCH.

We never compare the characters after the novel. There are no point, since you don't know if ZMK would even train since he dislike martial arts.

And I think maybe around 1000 for GJ to beat ZMK would be a reasonable answer. I never really think to highly of ZMK. Not too sure if he can match up to the Greats at the end of LOCH since he does seem to lack skills. He only got about few years of fighting experience.

[TaiHan]

How old was ZWJ at the end of HSDS? 24? 23?
It seemed that ZWJ while wondered around the world for about 2 or more years, he doesn't seem to improve that much at all.

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by TaiHan
How old was ZWJ at the end of HSDS? 24? 23?
It seemed that ZWJ while wondered around the world for about 2 or more years, he doesn't seem to improve that much at all.

He did. Cheung Mo Gei's martial arts grew in spurts between the time he left the cave where he had spent five years developing his inner power with the 9 Yeung Jen Ging and the end of the story. When Cheung Mo Gei first came out of the cave, he was unable to defeat Mit Jeut See Tai without sustaining significant injuries himself. By the time the story ended, Mit Jeut See Tai-level fighters would pose no threat to him.

Here are his post-cave boosts:

1. Generating his 9 Yeung inner power while trapped inside Can't Say Monk's bag greatly accelerated his inner power development.

2. 9 Yeung inner power allows Cheung Mo Gei to blast through seven levels of Keen Kwun Dai Loi Yee within hours.

3. During his first visit to Mt. Mo Dong as an adult, Cheung Mo Gei receives four months of martial arts instruction from his grandteacher Cheung 3 Fung. Tai Chi Fist and Tai Chi Sword are among the skills learned.

4. Obtaining the complete Ming Cult Divine Flame Scepter during the confrontation against the Persian Ming Cult allows Cheung Mo Gei to fill in the gaps in his Keen Kwun Dai Loi Yee knowledge, improving his use of this skill.

Not a bad haul, but not enough for him to match up against Gwok Jing at his peak.

[TaiHan]

Originally posted by Ken Cheng
3. During his first visit to Mt. Mo Dong as an adult, Cheung Mo Gei receives four months of martial arts instruction from his grandteacher Cheung 3 Fung. Tai Chi Fist and Tai Chi Sword are among the skills learned.

I didn't know that he recieve 4 month of training from Z3F. Think that will greatly increase fighting ability.

What kind of techniques was on the Ming cult Divine Flame Scepters?

[Meh]

ZWJ does have two things going for him. (1) His taichi fist/sword by nature would be quite hard to penetrate. (2) His Persian kung fu could give him a nice element of surprise.

Which means that the fight could end quickly in ZWJ's favor if he could surprise GJ and gain the initiative from the beginning with some crazy technique. Otherwise, it would be a while before GJ could bring down ZWJ. ZWJ really has no chance in a straightforward fight, though.

Based on the fact that GJ could actually last 600 combined moves from Huang YaoShi and Hong QiGong in LOCH(I think ZWJ is much better than GJ at the end of LOCH), I'd personally put the over/under at 2000 moves.

[Ardor]

How old is the GJ being compared?

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by Ardor
How old is the GJ being compared?

Around 50. Gwok Jing's martial arts abilities should have peaked around the end of ROCH.

[minutemanwayne]

Zhang WuJi never really impressed me. His internal energy was immense and he learned some of the best skills in HSDS. However, the guy had trouble against opponents who were alot weaker than him individually. If you gave a 20 year old Guo Jing the same set of skills with which Zhang WuJi learned with the same amount of internal energy, would you really think Guo Jing would have that much trouble against them? I'd say a much better fight would be between Zhang SanFeng and Guo Jing.

[Dirt]

Guo Jing would never be able to learn everything on his own, let alone as fast as ZWJ.

[minutemanwayne]

Originally posted by Dirt
Guo Jing would never be able to learn everything on his own, let alone as fast as ZWJ.

An 18 year old Guo Jing managed to learn 15 Dragon Subdueing Palms within a month. Even Hong Qi Gong was shocked at the speed with which he learned. He came up with a new set of martial arts by looking at tree branches and even used YiYang Zhi against OuYang Feng after watching YiDeng display the move once. That takes alot of talent in itself.

[superboy]

Yeah, although I like GJ, I still have to emit that he is pretty stupid other for being an expert in war tactics. But then he was born with the talents for learning martial arts. I'm not sure if it will take 50 year old GJ to beat ZMK. 33 year old GJ at that time looks pretty powerful enough me. I'm not sure if he will get overwhelme by ZMK's Persia techique, since he was able to deal with OYF's crazy techniques too. I believe that OYF and H7G are skill enough to take on ZMK.

[Meh]

Originally posted by minutemanwayne
Zhang WuJi never really impressed me. His internal energy was immense and he learned some of the best skills in HSDS. However, the guy had trouble against opponents who were alot weaker than him individually. If you gave a 20 year old Guo Jing the same set of skills with which Zhang WuJi learned with the same amount of internal energy, would you really think Guo Jing would have that much trouble against them? I'd say a much better fight would be between Zhang SanFeng and Guo Jing.

If the weaker opponent you're talking about are the Persian Fighters or against a whole bunch of Zhao Min dad's subordinates, then no, I don't see Guo Jing(or basically anyone else in the JY world given ZWJ's abilities at the time) winning them either. Both were special circustances where you can't just look at the fighter's internal power to say who'e "better".

I can't think of another situation where ZWJ had trouble with lesser opponents.

[superboy]

OYF were known for his strange moves when he became crazy too, but GJ has no problem handling him.

[tanteun]

if we compare GJ and ZWC at the same age, i think GJ will win the fight. Yes ZWC get the inner power but he never exactly learning it properly or being tought by a 'real teacher' only when he's young but it's only for some periods of times not like GJ. He got his skills by various teachers, he's not stupid only a little slow but when he got it, he knows how to practice it.

[Laviathan]

Since Wuji learned Nine Yang and Qiankun Danuoyi, his internal power and martial skills could be considered unrivalled. Yet:

1. He had to learn Shaolin Dragon Claw to defeat Kongzhi's Shaolin Dragon Claws. Wuji admitted that he could not have defeated Kongzhi with other techniques.

2. Was almost beaten by the combined sword/saber formation of the Kunlun He couple and the Huashan Elders. Managed to escape because he used Xihuazi as a shield and because he got pointers from Zhou Zhiruo.

3. Was afraid of Miejue's Heaven Sword and had to follow Yang Xiao and Wei Yixiao's instructions to disarm Miejue.

4. Had to learn Taiji Boxing in order to fight Ah San and Ah Er.

5. Had to learn Taiji Sword in order defeat Fang Dongbai.

6. Got struck down Xuanming Elders when trying to stop Zhao Min from leaving Wudang.

7. Thanks to Zhang Sanfeng's instructions during the few months on Wudang, he was able to defeat the Xuanming Elders at Wanan Temple Pagoda.

8. When fighting Fan Yao, Wuji admitted: "If I haven't learned Taiji Sword, I would not be able to defeat this person."

9. On Snake Island, when fighting the Persians, Wuji was struck by the Moon Messenger repeatedly. Wuji was not able to block her attacks, and if it wasn't for his Nine Yang energy protecting his body, his wrist would have been broken.

10. During the fight, Wuji (who was already armed with Heaven Sword) got Dragon Saber from his Godfather, while the Persians used the Holy Fire Scepters. Wuji thought: "Lucky enough that I immediately disarmed one of them at the beginning of the fight. If all three of them were armed, I might not be able to withstand their attacks."

11. Wuji suffered a few blows from the Moon Messenger, containing Penetrating Bone Needle power. Wuji almost got disarmed by the Persians, and had to use both Taiji and the highest level of Qiankun Danuoyi to retrieve the weapon.

12. Eventually, Wuji and the Persians got into a stalemate where Wuji had to withstand multiple attacks from the Penetrating Bone Needle and will surely lose. Golden Lion King had to intervene to save him.

13. Wuji asked the Persians to stop the fight and foolishly retracted his internal power. The Persians then attacked with full power and almost killed Wuji, but lucky for him Zhao Min's kamikaze attack saved the day.

14. In the end, Xiaochao translated the inscriptions on the Holy Fire Scepters. Wuji then learned the complete martial arts system of his opponents and FINALLY he was able to defeat them.

15. When facing the 24 Tibetan Monks, Wuji was struck down by the Xuanming Elders.

16. At Songshan Mountain, Wuji tried to stop Zhou Zhiruo from killing Zhao Min but he got cut by her knife instead.

17. At the Heroes Meeting of Shaolin, ZHou Zhiruo and Wuji had to fight the Three Shaolin Divine Monks. Knowing that ZHou Zhiruo's skills were in fact mediocre, Wuji used the Holy Fire Art to confuse his opponents. Wuji then almost died of insanity.

18. At the end of the novel, Wuji could only handle the Xuanming Elders with the highest level of Qiankun Danuoyi.

Zhang Wuji was a great martial artist, but a lousy fighter. He always had to learn new stuff (preferably the martial arts of his opponents so he could counter them), get pointers or help from others.

In my opinion, Guo Jing can easily defeat Zhang Wuji. In the field of martial arts, they are more or less equals. But when it comes to fighting, Guo Jing is a Ph.D. while Wuji is only Kindergarten level. There's no comparison.