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Thread: Jin Yong's depiction of the Juchen Jin Empire in LOCH

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkineePanda View Post
    In the beginning of ROCH, a storyteller told of a refugee family that was caught up with some Jurchen troops. The Jin officer took a liking to the daughter and tried to take her by force. She resisted and the officer put her family to the knife. And she killed herself. So yeah the Hans' hatred of the Jurchen runs pretty deep.

    All Han Chinese under the Jurchen were second-class or worse. Basically any foreign domination is hell to the Hans. Just remember that China under the Sung dynasty(especially the southern Sung) was a golden age and the Mongols ruined it.
    I agree with that. Intellectual would rather live under corrupted Han rulers rather than decent Mongolian/Jurchen rulers. I wouldn't want to live under Kangxi reign if I had a choice. All the Mongolian/Jurchen rulers were pretty racist. They never treated the Han population as equal to their own when they were in power. I wonder why the Ming didn't go after the Mongolians and Jurchens when they were in power.

  2. #22
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    I wonder why the Ming didn't go after the Mongolians and Jurchens when they were in power.
    Actually, the Hongwu Emperor launched a series of preemptive strikes against the Mongols in their homeland during the early years of the Ming Dynasty. The idea was to show the weakened Mongols who was boss (after around eighty years of being ruled by the Mongols) and discourage further Mongol incursions into the Central Plains. Indeed, although the Mongols continued to raid the border even into Qing times, they would never again seriously threaten the heart of the Chinese mainland.

    As for the Jurchen - they hadn't bothered the Han for centuries by the time the Ming Dynasty was established, and the Ming didn't seem to see any point in stirring up trouble with them. Another three hundred years would pass before the Jurchen would pose a problem again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Actually, the Hongwu Emperor launched a series of preemptive strikes against the Mongols in their homeland during the early years of the Ming Dynasty. The idea was to show the weakened Mongols who was boss (after around eighty years of being ruled by the Mongols) and discourage further Mongol incursions into the Central Plains. Indeed, although the Mongols continued to raid the border even into Qing times, they would never again seriously threaten the heart of the Chinese mainland.

    As for the Jurchen - they hadn't bothered the Han for centuries by the time the Ming Dynasty was established, and the Ming didn't seem to see any point in stirring up trouble with them. Another three hundred years would pass before the Jurchen would pose a problem again.
    Preemptive strikes alone wasn't enough. The Ming should be more ruthless/merciless toward the Mongols and Jurchens.
    Last edited by Trien Chieu; 03-06-13 at 01:20 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Actually, the Hongwu Emperor launched a series of preemptive strikes against the Mongols in their homeland during the early years of the Ming Dynasty. The idea was to show the weakened Mongols who was boss (after around eighty years of being ruled by the Mongols) and discourage further Mongol incursions into the Central Plains. Indeed, although the Mongols continued to raid the border even into Qing times, they would never again seriously threaten the heart of the Chinese mainland.

    As for the Jurchen - they hadn't bothered the Han for centuries by the time the Ming Dynasty was established, and the Ming didn't seem to see any point in stirring up trouble with them. Another three hundred years would pass before the Jurchen would pose a problem again.
    In these days and ages, I wonder whether the Mongolians and/or Jurchen will ever have any chance of regaining power again.

  5. #25
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    Jin Yong's depiction of the Juchen Jin Empire in LOC

    Pretty much all Han people hated the Jin during that era. They called them Jin Dog.

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    Quote Originally Posted by owbjhx View Post
    I agree: and not just the depiction of the Jins in She Diao, but how Jinyong depicts 'the foreign' in general (and in particular, how he juxtaposes it with 'the local'). He himself was writing from an outside perspective about an idealised China that never really existed. On top of that, there's a foreignness about most of his main heroes...
    Damn it man, I miss owbjhx. Where the hell are you now...

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    Intellectual would rather live under corrupted Han rulers rather than decent Mongolian/Jurchen rulers.
    Interesting. Would you rather live under corrupt Han rulers or in North America or Europe (and therefore under foreign rulers)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patudo View Post
    Interesting. Would you rather live under corrupt Han rulers or in North America or Europe (and therefore under foreign rulers)?
    North America and Europe are civilized countries. Non-white people enjoy as much freedom as white people and everyone is equal under the law of the land. On the other hand, Mongol and Manchu rulers treat other ethnic people as second/third class citizens. It's no wonder they were considered uncivilized low life barbarians.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Mandred Skavenslayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    North America and Europe are civilized countries. Non-white people enjoy as much freedom as white people and everyone is equal under the law of the land. On the other hand, Mongol and Manchu rulers treat other ethnic people as second/third class citizens. It's no wonder they were considered uncivilized low life barbarians.
    I am not sure if you are really this ignorant, but please do a little research. North American & European cultures have a very long history of racial discrimination right into the 20th century. Blacks, Native Americans, Asians etc have long been subjugated to second/third class citizenship in North America. Europe throughout its history has used the Jews as its whipping boy and has shown some of the most atrocious acts of religious intolerance in human 'civilisation'.

    Asia too has its share of 'barbarism', with rigid class systems based on occupation or birth, not to mention their treatment of women as little more than property. To label the nomadic cultures alone as barbaric is the biggest load of BS I've ever heard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandred Skavenslayer View Post
    North American & European cultures have a very long history of racial discrimination right into the 20th century. Blacks, Native Americans, Asians etc have long been subjugated to second/third class citizenship in North America. Europe throughout its history has used the Jews as its whipping boy and has shown some of the most atrocious acts of religious intolerance in human 'civilisation'.
    All very true, of course, but ... is there a Black or Asian country you would rather live in North America or Western Europe? Indeed, if you were living in North America or Western Europe, would you rather live there as things are now, or in a situation where other ethnic groups (eg. Hispanics in the US, North Africans in France, South Asians in the United Kingdom etc.) were a majority?

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patudo View Post
    All very true, of course, but ... is there a Black or Asian country you would rather live in North America or Western Europe? Indeed, if you were living in North America or Western Europe, would you rather live there as things are now, or in a situation where other ethnic groups (eg. Hispanics in the US, North Africans in France, South Asians in the United Kingdom etc.) were a majority?
    I am an ethnic Chinese living in the UK and do not see how the South Asians are a majority? Not sure what your point is? I was merely pointing out that all cultures can be considered 'barbaric', if we use Trien Chieu's way of judging them.

  12. #32
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    My point is ... no doubt there is racial discrimination in North America and Europe, but even so - would you rather live there than in Asia or Africa? Would you prefer to live in the UK as things are now (ie. with a "white" majority) or if South Asians and particularly Muslim South Asians became a majority? TC's post above is cartoonishly broad-brush, but ... there are definitely countries and cultures that are "civilized", and others that are a hell of a lot less so.

  13. #33
    Senior Member Mandred Skavenslayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patudo View Post
    My point is ... no doubt there is racial discrimination in North America and Europe, but even so - would you rather live there than in Asia or Africa? Would you prefer to live in the UK as things are now (ie. with a "white" majority) or if South Asians and particularly Muslim South Asians became a majority? TC's post above is cartoonishly broad-brush, but ... there are definitely countries and cultures that are "civilized", and others that are a hell of a lot less so.
    Well then let me ask you, if you would rather be a Han Chinese living in 1860's 'civilised' and democratic North America, or a Han Chinese living in 1700 'barbaric' and despotic Qing China. At the present time it is better to live as a minority/subject people in North America/Europe because the standard of living is better in these places, but this was not always so and may also change in the future.

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