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Thread: Fall of Xiangyang

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    Senior Member SkineePanda's Avatar
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    Default Fall of Xiangyang

    According to history, the fall of Xiangyang is caused by two siege machines built by Arabs. The Xiangyang's sister city Fancheng fell earlier because of the catapults which can lob 200+ pound stones, destroying anything it hits. Both apparently Fancheng and Xiangyang lasted for only days each. The city of Fancheng was slaughtered, while Xiangyang's populace was saved due to General Lui's surrender.

    You'd think the clever Huang Rong might actually come up with a clever strategy to counter those catapults or at least Gwok Jing might lead a force of elite fighters + soldiers to kill their way to destroy those things or at least assassinate the Arab engineers. But I guess they didn't.

    How would've they cope with the siege machines?

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    Senior Member Thai guy's Avatar
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    Yeah, it was quite strange that such a clelver HR could not think of the way to stop or counter those catapults. Moroever, it cannot be understood why Xiangyang easily lost and both GJ and HR died in the war. Given the fact that Xiangyang's soldiers were much better than those of Mongolian. GJ, indeed, also got very high quality soldiers from the Beggar's clan and I guessed some of them were even from Chaunjen. I supposed that the Mongolian at that time did not have some fighers as good as the Golden Wheel Monks so it should not be difficult for GJ and others. GJ and HR had been fought in the war with Mongolian for more than 20 years, they should know a lot of tactics and strategy. Later, GJ also kept the strategy in the sword. Did the strategy really help him?
    It appears that GJ and HR at that time did not think about those catapults or machines. They might even have enough times to plan anything. Let's guess what strategy the Mongolian used!

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    Default Re: Fall of Xiangyang

    How would've they cope with the siege machines?
    Ahh, this reminded me of Dicky Cheung playing Wei Xiaobao. Ao Bai was using all the fantastic kungfu skills but how did Xiaobao kills him, with a gun!

    All the 18 dragon palms and all the 6 merdian swords, by the Qing Era, got surpassed by a simple gun! Isn't it ironic, don't u think?

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    Senior Member superboy's Avatar
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    Anyone ever wonder how effective will the martial arts of GJ, YG, or XF will be in the Qing Era?
    "I will punish the evil and protect the weak, superboy is in a winning streak. The sky's peak is what I seek"

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    Senior Member Guo Xiang's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Thai guy
    Yeah, it was quite strange that such a clelver HR could not think of the way to stop or counter those catapults. Moroever, it cannot be understood why Xiangyang easily lost and both GJ and HR died in the war. Given the fact that Xiangyang's soldiers were much better than those of Mongolian. GJ, indeed, also got very high quality soldiers from the Beggar's clan and I guessed some of them were even from Chaunjen. I supposed that the Mongolian at that time did not have some fighers as good as the Golden Wheel Monks so it should not be difficult for GJ and others. GJ and HR had been fought in the war with Mongolian for more than 20 years, they should know a lot of tactics and strategy. Later, GJ also kept the strategy in the sword. Did the strategy really help him?
    It appears that GJ and HR at that time did not think about those catapults or machines. They might even have enough times to plan anything. Let's guess what strategy the Mongolian used!
    Actually, I think the Mongolian soldiers are stronger. People from the Beggars' Clan are not soldiers. They were martial people whom had volunteered to fight.

    There's no fortress in the world which couldn't be taken, no matter how difficult it is. It's just a matter of time when Xiangyang would fall.

    But on the endless raids of the Mongolians for years, one has to wonder if the Mongolians multiply like rats.
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    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Guo Xiang

    But on the endless raids of the Mongolians for years, one has to wonder if the Mongolians multiply like rats.

    Probably 1 in 100 Song male citizens is a soldier. But almost all Mongolian males were warriors in those times.

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    Senior Member Guo Xiang's Avatar
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    Originally posted by CC
    Probably 1 in 100 Song male citizens is a soldier. But almost all Mongolian males were warriors in those times.
    Yes but the point I am trying to bring across is, over the years, many Mongolian males must have died. It takes about 13-15 years to successfully have a new potential male soldier for the Mongolians. Unless the Mongolians has a very high birthrate at that time, their population would be rather badly depleted or something.
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    Senior Member SkineePanda's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Guo Xiang
    Yes but the point I am trying to bring across is, over the years, many Mongolian males must have died. It takes about 13-15 years to successfully have a new potential male soldier for the Mongolians. Unless the Mongolians has a very high birthrate at that time, their population would be rather badly depleted or something.
    The Mongol army isn't just Mongolians, they also used alot of Northern Chinese as auxillaries, as well as Arabs, some other nomadic tribes, even some Koreans. Just basically anyone they placed under their rule.

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    Senior Member Guo Xiang's Avatar
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    Originally posted by SkineePanda
    The Mongol army isn't just Mongolians, they also used alot of Northern Chinese as auxillaries, as well as Arabs, some other nomadic tribes, even some Koreans. Just basically anyone they placed under their rule.
    Is that so??? I'm not sure about this. Maybe some expert in this area could fill in more details about this?
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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Guo Xiang
    Is that so??? I'm not sure about this. Maybe some expert in this area could fill in more details about this?
    Skinee Panda's information is accurate. As the Mongol Empire expanded, its original troop strength (which was never large to begin with; Genghis Khan's original army numbered fewer than 100,000 men) was inadequate to secure the territory of the empire. Thus, the men of conquered populations were pressed into service as Mongol auxiliaries.

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    Senior Member Guo Xiang's Avatar
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    I see!!! Thanks for the information then, Skinee and Ken! ^.^
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    Senior Member SolidSnake's Avatar
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    The historical battle for Xiangyang lasted only about 5 years.
    Although Mongols army was not very large, Song's army stationed there were also limited in numbers. General Lu kept asking for reinforcement but declined by the corrupt government. The emperor of Song himself did not know that this strategic city in under siege until years later, thanks to the corrupt officials! By the time reinforcement was actually sent, Mongols already taken strategic points in the battlefield and crush them...
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    Senior Member Guo Xiang's Avatar
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    Originally posted by SolidSnake
    The historical battle for Xiangyang lasted only about 5 years.
    Although Mongols army was not very large, Song's army stationed there were also limited in numbers. General Lu kept asking for reinforcement but declined by the corrupt government. The emperor of Song himself did not know that this strategic city in under siege until years later, thanks to the corrupt officials! By the time reinforcement was actually sent, Mongols already taken strategic points in the battlefield and crush them...
    Such things could be kept under the wraps for years... just to see how corrupt the government is at that time... x.x;
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    Senior Member Battosai's Avatar
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    Mongols were more than simply warriors, at least after Ghengiz. The reason they were able to conquer so much was their ability to adapt to changing circumstances. It's doubtful that even a non-corrupt Song government could've withstood the Mongols; the government was simply too inefficient for a war of attrition whereas the Mongols were able to create a vast, sophisticated bureaucratic machinery geared towards war and war only.

    The Mongol conquest had more to do with the efficient organization of the Mongol empire than the strength of its soldiers, though they were better than the Song soldiers. But even if the Song soldiers were as good as the Mongols, the outcome wouldn't have changed because the Mongols had better government suited for a long, grueling war requiring vast logistical resources.

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    Senior Member philip's Avatar
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    well, each empire had it's rise and fall...mongol empire was defeated eventually, and the Khitans and Jurchen weren't that much less fierce than the mongols

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    Originally posted by Battosai
    Mongols were more than simply warriors, at least after Ghengiz. The reason they were able to conquer so much was their ability to adapt to changing circumstances. It's doubtful that even a non-corrupt Song government could've withstood the Mongols; the government was simply too inefficient for a war of attrition whereas the Mongols were able to create a vast, sophisticated bureaucratic machinery geared towards war and war only.

    The Mongol conquest had more to do with the efficient organization of the Mongol empire than the strength of its soldiers, though they were better than the Song soldiers. But even if the Song soldiers were as good as the Mongols, the outcome wouldn't have changed because the Mongols had better government suited for a long, grueling war requiring vast logistical resources.
    Ultimately, however, the Mongols spread themselves too thin. They were astute enough to recognize that administration was not their forte', and that the populations they had subjugated were far too numerous to be governed under the structure of their tribal laws. Hence, the Mongols made use of the people they had conquered (including the Chinese and Arabs) to contend with the actual administration of their conquered lands. On the one hand, this approach allowed the Mongol Empire to last as long as it did, but at the same time, it eventually doomed the Mongol Empire to dilution and ultimate dissolution as the native cultures under Mongol rule asserted their cultural and social dominance.

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    Senior Member sarakoth's Avatar
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    the majority of the Mongol's campaigning army were Turks and other steppe nomads, they outnumbered the Mongols

    local authority was enforced by local people loyal to the Mongol government

    so all or most of the guan bing in the Yuan Dynasty were Chinese

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    Rise of the Mongol Empire in thirteen century is based on three things.

    1. Good government and organization both in terms of civil and military.
    2. Highly skilled army. Mongolians are born and die in the horse back. Both women and men were able to fight.
    3. Speed of movement . Mongolian army were the swiftest army in the world until the engines are created.

    Mongolian army had no common kitchen which is known as obstacle of traveling swiftly. The soldiers keep their foods with them. Approximately a soldier had twenty horses with him when the army head to war. The soldiers switch within his horses while the horses were running in their full speeds. It reduces the relaxing time. All men in Mongolia live his lifetime in horse back. They can eat and sleep in horse back. All the all, Mongolian army's traveling speed is almost equal to horses running in their full speed.

    Mongolians were always low populated. During the thirteen century. Mongolian population were about six hundred thousands, at the top about one million. Even today Mongolian population is two and half million/not counting the inner Mongolia/.
    Under the Chinggis Khaan(Gengkis Khan)'s control there were approximately one hundred thousands soldiers. But it's true that Mongolians used other civilizations.

    Those years, Mongolians conquered Jin , Western Xia, Khwarezmid Empire, Iran, Russia, Transoxiana, Persia, Southern Song, Belarus and Ukraine in row. Almost every battle Mongol army were out numbered. For example Jin Empire had four hundred thousands armed man.
    But they couldn't withstand the Mongolian armies fierce arrows and swift movement. Also Mongolians used one against one like Jin against Southern Song.

    For the why the Xiang Yang fallen, first of all we should distinguish the Jing Yong novel and real history.
    Last edited by odbayarb2000; 04-10-07 at 01:53 PM.

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    The Mongolians were blood thirsty. They had a big piece of land with extremely low population which is more than enough for them to live in peace but they chose to invade other countries to kill/rob/loot/rape. Why can't they work for a living just like everyone else?
    Last edited by Trien Chieu; 11-15-13 at 05:49 PM.

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    Senior Member athlee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    The Mongolians were blood thirsty. They had a big piece of land with extremely low population which is more than enough for them to live in peace but they chose to invade other countries to kill/rob/loot/rape. Why can't they work for a living just like everyone else?
    Didn't your revered emperor Qianlong do the same? He basically doubled the land mass for the Qing dynasty, depleting the treasury.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zunghar_Khanate#Fall
    The Qianlong Emperor moved the remaining Zunghar people to the mainland and ordered the generals to kill all the men in Barkol or Suzhou, and divided their wives and children to Qing soldiers.[20][21] Qing scholar Wei Yuan estimated the total population of Zunghars before the fall at 600,000 people, or 200,000 households. In a widely cited[22][23] account of the war, Wei Yuan wrote that about 40% of the Zunghar households were killed by smallpox, 20% fled to Russia or Kazakh tribes, and 30% were killed by the army, leaving no yurts in an area of several thousands li except those of the surrendered.[24] Based on this account, Wen-Djang Chu wrote that 80% of the 600,000 or more Zunghars were destroyed by disease and manchus, kazakhs attack[25] which Michael Clarke described as "the complete destruction of not only the Zunghar state but of the Zunghars as a people."[26] Historian Peter Perdue attributed the decimation of the Dzungars to an explicit policy of extermination launched by Qianlong, but he also observed signs of a more lenient policy after mid-1757.[23] Mark Levene, a historian whose recent research interests focus on genocide, has stated that the extermination of the Dzungars was "arguably the eighteenth century genocide par excellence."[27]
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