Xiao Feng vs Yang Guo

[Ken Tran]

Yang Guo will win I guess.

[K2Grey]

There are alot of long distance palms thrown in HSDS I suppose but I always wondered why in the translation at Brightness Peak when Song Yuanqiao attacked Yin Tianzheng with a palm when he was a step or two too far away to actually hit him, and Yin thought "Could it be that his palm is so powerful it can hit through air?” That seems to imply to me that it is unheard of for people to attack people through air with their palms in HSDS or otherwise Yin would have assumed it was a LDA instead of wondering what was going on. Yet I hear that later on when ZWJ, Yang Xiao and Yin are fighting with the 3 Du monks Yin throws a bunch of LDAs, so for Yin to be confused there was confusing to me.

[PJ]

No one in HSDS threw any LDA, I don't think. According to Kenny's definition (and he is the pioneer of those acronyms, I think), a LDA is projecting wind over 10+ feet that can seriously injure or kill an opponent of 1 class lower. Whereas, a LDS is projecting wind over 10+ feet to push an opponent back. What Dunan demonstrated was LDS not LDA. As for Yin Tianzheng, I don't even think his thing was LDS.

LDA in the Jin Yong universe is a highly prestigeous feat, and to the best of my knowledge the only novel that featured it definitively (where the distance was explicitly mentioned and the feat explicitly confirmed) would be DGSD.

[CC]

No one in HSDS threw any LDA, I don't think. According to Kenny's definition (and he is the pioneer of those acronyms, I think), a LDA is projecting wind over 10+ feet that can seriously injure or kill an opponent of 1 class lower. Whereas, a LDS is projecting wind over 10+ feet to push an opponent back. What Dunan demonstrated was LDS not LDA. As for Yin Tianzheng, I don't even think his thing was LDS.

LDA in the Jin Yong universe is a highly prestigeous feat, and to the best of my knowledge the only novel that featured it definitively (where the distance was explicitly mentioned and the feat explicitly confirmed) would be DGSD.

Whoa there! I remember this argument! It became quite a mind boggling thread.

[PJ]

LDA is cool, but there are feats in the other novels that are very cool too.

But yeah, as far as LDA goes, DGSD is the mother mecca of them all.

[K2Grey]

I myself got the impression that there was a difference between a palm wind and a palm blast, in that one restricts breathing and can cause internal injury, while the other can blow up physical stuff. But I don't know if JY actually uses different terms or if he still uses "zhang feng" for DGSD.

[ChronoReverse]

Two things.


(1) If the fighters got pushed back a distance in a fight, that obviously means that if they stayed inside this distance and didn't defend, they'd get injured. Hence LDA. What would the point of staying outside the distance of inflicting damage if you could stay inside it?

(2) DGSD is known for the massive LDAs, but XAJH has LDAs of the subtle variety.

[PJ]

Two things.


(1) If the fighters got pushed back a distance in a fight, that obviously means that if they stayed inside this distance and didn't defend, they'd get injured. Hence LDA.

I think LDA can injure the opponent even if they defend. Like Xiao Feng on Ding Chunqiu.

(2) DGSD is known for the massive LDAs, but XAJH has LDAs of the subtle variety.

You are right.

[ChronoReverse]

I think LDA can injure the opponent even if they defend. Like Xiao Feng on Ding Chunqiu.

What I mean is that a LDA is similar to a normal attack. DCQ wouldn't be able to block a blow from XF from point-blank or an LDA.

For the HSDS case, although they were able to use their own forces to counter out each other, they were still forced back into a distance. This indicates that staying within a certain distance can result in injury.

[Whsie]

No one in HSDS threw any LDA, I don't think. According to Kenny's definition (and he is the pioneer of those acronyms, I think), a LDA is projecting wind over 10+ feet that can seriously injure or kill an opponent of 1 class lower. Whereas, a LDS is projecting wind over 10+ feet to push an opponent back. What Dunan demonstrated was LDS not LDA. As for Yin Tianzheng, I don't even think his thing was LDS.

LDA in the Jin Yong universe is a highly prestigeous feat, and to the best of my knowledge the only novel that featured it definitively (where the distance was explicitly mentioned and the feat explicitly confirmed) would be DGSD.

渡难的掌力跟着进击一步，劲力竟不以路程拉远而稍衰。
I think this is a LDA not a LDS or else Yin Tianzheng wouldn't die from overexhaustion of use of internal. If it was just a projecting wind, then Yin Tianzheng wouldn't be suffocating so much under the power of the palm power.

This is what I think is happening: They have a distance of approx 1.001 zhang-1.999 zhang. Dunan constantly gives one Semuru Mountain Palm after another. Yin Tianzheng has to give one of his palm powers at 100% to take in the power But it's not enough, so Tianzheng gets forced back 1 feet. And this is probably happening the whole time. Everytime, the palm power has come to him, Yin Tianzheng has to use one of his palm powers. So there was no need for Yin Tianzheng to actually use the LDS or LDA. YTZ was just recieving the blast when the blast reaches him. Du Nan on the other hand had to extend that power all the way to YTZ.

However, there is no doubt that the mother of all LDA is DSGS.

[Black Night Sea]

I don’t understand why YTZ would bother pushing Du’nan, especially when he’s sitting inside a niche that was formed beneath the tree as with the rest of the monks.

LDAs/Pi’kong Zhang, Wuxing Shenquan, Lingkong Dianxue are unproblematic for a large group of experts IMO.

Yang Guo & Qiu Qianren:

只聽得砰的一聲，木板飛脫一塊，接著格喇聲響，柱子又斷了一條，木屋既小，又 非牢固，實容不下兩個高手的劇斗。劍刃和掌風到處，木板四下亂飛，終于喀喇喇一聲大響，木柱折斷，屋面壓了下來。小龍女抱起郭襄，從窗中飛身而出，一燈在后相護，揮袖拂 開了几塊碎木。
The sound of crashing can be heard as a flying piece of wooden plank was torn away , followed by a cracking noise when a pillar snapped off. Since the wooden house was small and neither firmly constructed, it will not tolerate a severe battle between two experts. The sword and palm wind grazed the entire place causing the broken pieces of wood to fly out in disorder. Finally a huge noise of splitting occurred as a wooden post broke off which forced the roofing to collapse.

Check out what a small-timer '二打六' was capable of in Chapter 34: -

說著雙掌一揮，一掌揮向楊過，一掌推向郭襄。三人相隔一丈有余，那老婦凌空出掌，原是擊不到楊、郭二人身上，但郭襄見她手掌拍出，一股寒氣便襲了過來。楊過衣袖微擺，將 她推向郭襄的掌風解于無形，對推向自己的掌 風卻不理睬。
Finishing her speech, both her palms waved out, one headed towards Yang Guo and the other at Guo Xiang. The 3 of them stood more than ten feet apart from each other, so her palms wouldn’t actually be in range for contact, nevertheless Guo Xiang still felt a cold draft approaching her. Yang Guo gently swung his sleeve and dissipated the palm wind heading to Guo Xiang into thin air, and paid no attention to the wind that was heading towards himself.

那老婦人原本不想傷害二人，只求將他們逐出黑龍潭去，因此掌上只使了五成力，但見眼前二人竟是渾若閑事，不 由得又驚又怒，氣凝丹田，手掌上加了一倍力量，仍是兩掌推出，這時已顧不得對方死活了。郭襄一覺掌風襲到，胸口立感悶塞，但見楊過衣袖一揮，寒氣登消，心知兩人正自比拼內功，
The old woman originally had no intention of harming the two of them and only sought to drive them away that’s why she only applied fifty percent strength in her palms. But seeing how the two weren’t affected the least by it, she can’t help but feel shocked and angry about it. Qi set in her pubic region, she doubled her strength and thrust out two palms again. This time she no longer cared for the fate of the two on the receiving end. As soon as Guo Xiang felt the palm wind arriving, her chest was suddenly stifling cold,

[PJ]

What I mean is that a LDA is similar to a normal attack.

The major difference being that LDA is a more aggressive, more powerful display of martial arts.

We assume that people who can do LDA can do LDS, but people who can do LDS aren't necessarily capable of LDA.

DCQ wouldn't be able to block a blow from XF from point-blank or an LDA.

Actually Ding Chunqiu could take a blow from Xiao Feng in close distance.

他恼恨星宿派手段阴毒，呼的一掌，向丁春秋猛击过去。 丁春秋领教过他掌力的厉害，双掌齐出，全力抵御。

Ding used 2 arms to block this time, and he was fine.

This outcome has several possible implications.

For the HSDS case, although they were able to use their own forces to counter out each other, they were still forced back into a distance. This indicates that staying within a certain distance can result in injury.

Not forced back -- Yin Tianzheng voluntarily stepped back in a strategic move. He exchanged 30 hits with Dunan, and he knew that he couldn't prevail, so he wanted to step back in order to decrease the strength that he would have to counter.

[PJ]

I don’t understand why YTZ would bother pushing Du’nan

When Kenny used the terms LDA and LDS, I think he was talking about against weaker opponents only. So Yin Tianzheng cannot possibly perform LDS or LDA on Dunan who is superior to him.

只聽得砰的一聲，木板飛脫一塊，接著格喇聲響，柱子又斷了一條，木屋既小，又 非牢固，實容不下兩個高手的劇斗。劍刃和掌風到處，木板四下亂飛，終于喀喇喇一聲大響，木柱折斷，屋面壓了下來。小龍女抱起郭襄，從窗中飛身而出，一燈在后相護，揮袖拂 開了几塊碎木。

Distance unknown.

說著雙掌一揮，一掌揮向楊過，一掌推向郭襄。三人相隔一丈有余，那老婦凌空出掌，原是擊不到楊、郭二人身上，但郭襄見她手掌拍出，一股寒氣便襲了過來。楊過衣袖微擺，將 她推向郭襄的掌風解于無形，對推向自己的掌 風卻不理睬。

Regarding this sentence: 那老婦凌空出掌，原是擊不到楊、郭二人身上，但郭襄見她手掌拍出，一股寒氣便襲了過來

I interpret it a bit differently: the energy released by [her palm from a distance] could not reach Yang and Guo. However Guo Xiang still felt a cold draft approaching her.

那老婦人原本不想傷害二人，只求將他們逐出黑龍潭去，因此掌上只使了五成力，但見眼前二人竟是渾若閑事，不 由得又驚又怒，氣凝丹田，手掌上加了一倍力量，仍是兩掌推出，這時已顧不得對方死活了。郭襄一覺掌風襲到，胸口立感悶塞，但見楊過衣袖一揮，寒氣登消，心知兩人正自比拼內功，

That could be LDA, although the distance again is unknown.

Keep up the good work. We might be on to something

[Black Night Sea]

Regarding this sentence: 那老婦凌空出掌，原是擊不到楊、郭二人身上，但郭襄見她手掌拍出，一股寒氣便襲了過來

I interpret it a bit differently: the energy released by [her palm from a distance] could not reach Yang and Guo. However Guo Xiang still felt a cold draft approaching her.

Yes but it was also stated that "she no longer cared for the life and death of the two people" "這時已顧不得對方死活了", with that in mind, she must believe her palm wind is capable of killing Guo Xiang and Yang Guo (except she underestimated the actual strength of YG). So it's fair to say she can kill anyone from 10 feet away that's about GX's level or higher. But how much higher?

他恼恨星宿派手段阴毒，呼的一掌，向丁春秋猛击过去。 丁春秋领教过他掌力的厉害，双掌齐出，全力抵御。

Ding used 2 arms to block this time, and he was fine.

XF also grabbed DCQ's palm wind as well as his own and tossed this combined palm wind back at MRF. It may not be conclusive to say DCQ definitely had no problems when it was 2 palms vs 1 palm.

[PJ]

Yes but it was also stated that "she no longer cared for the life and death of the two people" "這時已顧不得對方死活了", with that in mind, she must believe her palm wind is capable of killing Guo Xiang and Yang Guo (except she underestimated the actual strength of YG). So it's fair to say she can kill anyone from 10 feet away that's about GX's level or higher. But how much higher?

It might be too much of a stretch to conclude that Ying Gu can actually kill Guo Xiang from a distance of over 1 zhang, just because Ying Gu didn't care about their safety any more. Guo Xiang merely felt some cold air near her chest; she didn't say this energy was life threatening or anything.

Ying Gu might be able to injure Guo Xiang but I did not think that description was life threatening. It is impressive nevertheless. I will think about how this ranks in Kenny's classifications.

XF also grabbed DCQ's palm wind as well as his own and tossed this combined palm wind back at MRF. It may not be conclusive to say DCQ definitely had no problems when it was 2 palms vs 1 palm.

Well, Ding Chunqiu already tasted the might of Xiao Feng's palms. When Xiao Feng striked out again, Ding could have evaded it if he thought he couldn't handle that hit. Since he chose to take it head-on, I think that means he didn't think it to be life-threatening.

[Black Night Sea]

It might be too much of a stretch to conclude that Ying Gu can actually kill Guo Xiang from a distance of over 1 zhang, just because Ying Gu didn't care about their safety any more. Guo Xiang merely felt some cold air near her chest; she didn't say this energy was life threatening or anything.

But YG was there to nullify any possible danger that was going to be placed upon GX. What GX felt is most likely to be a portion of that palm wind and she seemed helpless if it can be put that way.

Well, Ding Chunqiu already tasted the might of Xiao Feng's palms. When Xiao Feng striked out again, Ding could have evaded it if he thought he couldn't handle that hit. Since he chose to take it head-on, I think that means he didn't think it to be life-threatening.

I wouldn't think it was life-threatening too, but there are possible outcomes like sending a shock or even snap both his wrists which could happen. We're not sure if the resistance from DCQ's two palm strength are equivalent to a single one from MRB for example.

As for evading it, how smart is DCQ? How much pride does he have in him? Not to say I would do the same thing if I'm not 100% sure it's blockable.

Ying Gu might be able to injure Guo Xiang but I did not think that description was life threatening. It is impressive nevertheless. I will think about how this ranks in Kenny's classifications.

That's the problem with Condor Trilogy LDAs. There's too much terms like 'might be' or 'possibly' attached to their feats. Jinyong should've presented them in the fashion that made DGSD so popular.

[PJ]

That's the problem with Condor Trilogy LDAs. There's too much terms like 'might be' or 'possibly' attached to their feats.

Yes, they fall just short of certainty.

You can see why it is quite easy to imagine DGSD fighters to be superior to everybody else, on first impression.

I think it has a bit to do with cultural differences too. I have been told that by far a higher percentage of WESTERN readers favor DGSD's superiority. Since you frequent the Chinese forums, can you confirm if this is true? By the way I am talking about comparing the Chinese fans' mentality to what was true of the English language forums 5 years ago, when virtually everyone thought that DGSD > Trilogy (and that attitute has changed in recent times).

Also it is interesting to note that Chinese scholars have all thought Guo Jing to be superior to Xiao Feng in the field of martial arts, according to Laviathan.

[Black Night Sea]

I think it has a bit to do with cultural differences too. I have been told that by far a higher percentage of WESTERN readers favor DGSD's superiority. Since you frequent the Chinese forums, can you confirm if this is true? By the way I am talking about comparing the Chinese fans' mentality to what was true of the English language forums 5 years ago, when virtually everyone thought that DGSD > Trilogy (and that attitute has changed in recent times).

It's a warzone down there. You'd hardly find anyone start an argument about DGSD Heroes = Condor Trilogy Heroes it's always one leaning to the other group. Maybe it's becoz Chinese/Taiwanese posters enjoy arguing amongst each other. Sure, quite a number of GJ fans agreed to Jinyong's words of XF having the best Xianglong Zhang out of the 3, but they still hold the belief that GJ > XF. And there's not much I can do about it.

Also it is interesting to note that Chinese scholars have all thought Guo Jing to be superior to Xiao Feng in the field of martial arts, according to Laviathan.

2nd Edition-wise I think it's true. Due to mere specks of info that's given on XF's XL18Z. The word 'hard' is written all over XF's version. But with 3rd Edition out, I think Jinyong decided to clear up this misinterpretation by revealing how much strength XF puts in his strikes in most if not all situations. Now IMO, it's not that certain XF was losing his strength when he fought YTZ and MRF. Jinyong changed the title of XLZ from being "World Number One Hard Yang Palm Technique" to simply "World Number One Palm Technique".

[Dennis Chen]

Even if Xiao Feng's Xiang Long Shi Ba Zhang is better than Guo Jing's, Guo Jing was more than just Xiang Long Shi Ba Zhang. He seemed to be just as likely to use Kong Ming Quan; pretty much whichever one of his martial arts suited the situation.

2nd Edition-wise I think it's true. Due to mere specks of info that's given on XF's XL18Z. The word 'hard' is written all over XF's version. But with 3rd Edition out, I think Jinyong decided to clear up this misinterpretation by revealing how much strength XF put's in his strikes in most if not all situations.

What exactly did Jin Yong clear up?

[Black Night Sea]

What exactly did Jin Yong clear up?

Refer back to what I edited above.