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Thread: Martial arts comparison between DGSD era and LOCH/ROCH era

  1. #21
    Senior Member Laviathan's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">Originally posted by Kenny:
    <STRONG> I remember I once called it an abuse of the theory of deterioration when someone else suggested that if we're to believe in such a theory, then, say, LHC is automatically weaker than, say, ZWJ, simply because the former lived in a later era than the latter. The problem I had with that statement is that the deterioration theory is about the pugilistic society as the whole. One who believes in such theory might be able to use it to compare two "average" fighters from different eras, but the theory loses its power when we are comparing fighters who are at the ends of the spectrum (extremely strong or extremely weak fighters.) In cases like those, it's required to use specific evidence to determine who's stronger than whom.

    Conversely, I also consider it an abuse of the theory if someone claims that he can prove DFBB is stronger than ZWJ, and then conclude that the theory is wrong because of that comparison.</STRONG></font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>


    Dear Kenny,

    I recently retired from participating in Wuxia forums, but I now would like to make a little come-back to explain my views. I was the one who said in the past: "In the Jin Yong universe, there's a decline in martial arts with each generation. That means that (on the whole) Northern Song fighters are stronger compared to Southern Song, Southern Song fighters better than Yuan dynasty fighters etc. Zhang Wuji is a person living in the end of the Yuan dynasty, while Linghu Chong is from the Ming era (this is certain). So strictly speaking, Zhang Wuji should be more powerful than Linghu Chong anyway."
    The moment I wrote the words above I was really in a hurry and did not really explain my ideas thoroughly. I post it on the Wuxia forum and it was quoted on Jin Yong forum, which I was not aware of until later on. You might have interpreted my words in a way which was not my intended meaning. I should have emphasized "ON THE WHOLE, Northern Song fighters are stronger compared to Southern Song" and "STRICTLY SPEAKING, Zhang Wuji SHOULD be more powerful than Linghu Chong". I would also like to say that the rest of my post was my analysis of Zhang Wuji's and Linghu Chong's fighting skills which had nothing to do with deterioration theory.

    So, what I am trying to say is that I agree with your above-mentioned ideas on deterioration theory, actually from the very beginning I have shared your views on this matter. I hope I have cleared up some misconceptions. Lastly, I would like to wish you and all the other members of this forum a Happy New Year!
    對 敵 須 狠 , 斬 草 除 根 , 男 女 老 幼 , 不 留 一 人

  2. #22
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    Hi Lav,

    Just re-read some of the posts at the other forum that I missed while I was gone, and I'm sorry to found out about your decision to leave because of the conflict you had with that poster "TheTroll". <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0"> (Argh... Hope my pathetic attempt to be funny won't turn into a flame war, but then, fire usually kills trolls, so... <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"> ) I'm sure most of the posters there would be really glad if one day you decide to return. And in the meantime, I hope your friend gets better.

    &gt; So, what I am trying to say is that I agree with
    &gt; your above-mentioned ideas on deterioration theory,
    &gt; actually from the very beginning I have shared your
    &gt; views on this matter. I hope I have cleared up some
    &gt; misconceptions.

    Thanks for clearing that up.

    The reason I brought this topic up now was because I remember when we had that discussion in the other forum after someone provided a link to your analysis, Jo asked some questions along the line of "if we are to believe in such theory, why shouldn't we automatically believe ZWJ to be stronger?", or "why do some of us still believe LHC is stronger than ZWJ?"

    Also, like I said in one of my previous posts, some other posters also attempt to prove this theory wrong by proving a character from a later era is stronger than an earlier character. This is not a logically valid argument, because the ToD is based on comparisons of the means, and the means usually tell you very little about the outliers.

    I didn't give much of an explanation back then, so I thought this is a good time to bring it back up, especially when Jo is actually posting under this topic.

    &gt; Lastly, I would like to wish you and all the other
    &gt; members of this forum a Happy New Year!

    Happy New Year to you too!

  3. #23
    Senior Member Goofy's Avatar
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    Cool

    did I really ask those questions??? <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">

    I think the deteriorate theory is sensible but I don't put much emphasis on it because I feel that each story has its own individuality that it is hard to compare between the stories except the trilogy ones.

    I agree that probably song fighters probably are far better than those in domd. However, I have just to the words of those experts when it comes to comparison between fighters in closer eras.

    also, with Laviathan's theory of dugu sword, it is very convincing yet I also agree with Lanny Lin's side of argument too.

    I guess I am just a bystander and learn from your guys' discussions. <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/catroar.gif" border="0">

    strictly speaking, do you think LWC's skills are possible in wuxia world?

    although it seems far fetched, I think it must be harder to defeat inner power without inner power than to beat inner power with inner power. It sounds more cool too.
    "History's third dimension is always fiction."
    -- The Glass Bead Game, Hermann Hesse

  4. #24
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    A difficult question. to beat inner power without inner power. remember when feng qing yang taught ling hu chong DG9G? he said it's always difficult to predict a beginner's movement coz he is still new. here, FQY is reffering to an expert fighting against a beginner. but something puzzled me though is did FQY take inner strenght into consideration? logically, eventhough an expert have difficulties against a beginner but eventually he will be able to overcome the beginner, experience plays it part. when LWC was injured and heung man tin took him to see the kong nam 4 yau(the real motive is to rescue yam ngo hang), he did fought with the 4 guys and yam ngo hang. but what is the rule/s heung man tin apply? he said LWC is seriously injured and he can only compete against them using technique. and the result was LWC won against the 4 guys. of course, that 4 guy's standard was not even near LWC. but when you have someone who is as good as LWC, i think the result might go differently. another thing still puzzled me, where did FQY learn DG9G? can someone tell me that? thanks in advance.
    I can't write a love song the way I feel today, I can't sing no song of hope, I got nothing to say, Life is feeling kind of strange, since you went away, I sing this song to you wherever you are as my guitar lies bleeding in my arms...

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    Jo wrote:
    &gt; did I really ask those questions???

    Well, while you didn't ask specifically about ZWJ and LHC, you asked something similar...

    I've just checked the archive, and you wrote: "I have a doubt about this theory mainly because the yueh maiden sword in the spring and autumn era would become the greatest sword skill ever automatically."

    &gt; also, with Laviathan's theory of dugu sword, it is
    &gt; very convincing yet I also agree with Lanny Lin's
    &gt; side of argument too.

    If you've noticed, you might find that I discuss almost every other topic, but I rarely have any serious discussion about DG9J at all. It's because I consider the whole idea of this technique so logically flawed that any serious discussion is a waste of my time.

    &gt; strictly speaking, do you think LWC's skills are possible in wuxia world?

    You mean beating a fighter with strong inner power with little or no inner power himself? In general, yes, it's possible, but difficult.

    &gt; although it seems far fetched, I think it must be harder to defeat inner power without inner power than to beat
    &gt; inner power with inner power. It sounds more cool too.

    I actually had talked about this before in the JY forum, and in much longer details. But that happened before you came to the forum... (heck, even moin wasn't there...)

    When I'm evaluating a fighter, I think the amount of inner power he has, the types of techniques he knows, his natural talent, experience, knowledge in kungfu in general, personality, etc. etc., all play a part into determining how strong he really is. Not all of these factors are equally important. So when you have weaker inner power than your opponent, you'll need to make up for this disadvantage from one or more of the other factors.

    For example, in the novel, XF was known to have never lost a fight. Even against opponents who had stronger inner power and at the same time using more advanced techniques, XF would still come out as the winner because of his unmatched natural talents. In DGSD, JMZ fought the inexperienced XZ to a draw despite having much weaker inner power. In this case, experience, among other things, became a very significant factor.

    drfarook wrote:
    &gt; another thing still puzzled me, where did FQY learn DG9G? can someone tell me that?

    No, we don't know. Jin Yong just gave it to him so that he can teach it to LWC so that we can have a story to read. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

  6. #26
    Senior Member Charlieboy's Avatar
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    I have a couple of questions regarding this whole deteriorating martial arts with the passing of time thing in the JY world to you folks of knowledge (please take into account I haven't read a single chinese word of JYs <IMG SRC="smilies/blush.gif" border="0"> )

    1. Is it stated(by the narrator) in any of the JY novels that this deterioration exists or is it stated by a character/s?

    2. What is the explanation of such a pattern?

  7. #27
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    i agree with kenny, regarding xiao feng, but i think the main reason to xiao feng undefeated streak was due to his attitude. he has an attitude of" never say die" and what's more important, he's smart plus he's confident in each fight he fought in. in each fight, especially the tough one, he sort of could read his opponents move/s. and better still he could predict his opponents next move and by the time his opponents uses that move, he already has ways to encounter it. but the main thing regarding xiao feng is still, his attitude and he is confident.
    I can't write a love song the way I feel today, I can't sing no song of hope, I got nothing to say, Life is feeling kind of strange, since you went away, I sing this song to you wherever you are as my guitar lies bleeding in my arms...

  8. #28
    Senior Member Athena's Avatar
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    Arrow

    To everyone: Happy New Year!
    Also that is really my pic, I didn't use a picture of Kenix Kwok. Although there is some remote resemblance. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

    To Goofy: Only back for the holidays. But thanks for your warm welcome.

    To Kenny: When JiuMo Zhi talked he used Xiao WuXiang Gong. (XuZhu recognized it at once). DaLun MingWang knew many different styles of martial arts. However his most important style was Xiao WuXiang Gong. He used this internal technique to generate the 72 special skills of ShaoLin.
    By using his most important style should hint that he did his best. Showing off his powerful internal strength was the best way to prove his superiority. The moment he arrived at the monastery he knew that none of those monks were his match. He did his homework and made sure he studied the background of ShaoLin. (JiuMo Zhi isn't the reckless type). Not only did he want to defeat ShaoLin, he wanted to prove that the martial arts of Tibet were superior to Chinese martial arts.
    There is no clear proof or evidence to support that reverend YiDeng is better than Jiu MoZhi, however judging from the descriptions in both novels, their mastery of internal energy is similar to each other and therefore we could say that they are at least equals.
    But I do not understand that would you would say that JiuMo Zhi wouldn't try his best. A monk, who intentionally went to ShaoLin Monastery with the sole purpose of humilating ShaoLin and Chinese martial arts by showing off his martial arts, would not try his best. While reverend YiDeng who only requested to see YingGu would.

    Also reverend JueYuan used his footprints to eradicate the lines left behind by He ZuDao. As Xiao Feng used his feet to wipe away the characters written by Duan YanQing. JueYuan used one movement only to eradicate the chessboard, but Xiao Feng used several movements to wipe away those characters.

    A martial artist wrote to me ad said that conditioning is very important. Someone like Xiao Feng must have had a extremely hard physical training, his muscles, bones and tendons are much better develped than someone like JueYuan who only spend his time reading Buddhist scriptures. It's true that internal strenght can help resist the pain, but JueYuan was channeling all his strength to his feet to make the prints, therefore his internal energy wasn't able to protect his physical body.
    Everyone keeps saying that JueYuan had an advantage with the buckets of water, but do we realize how difficult it is for an untrained man, (someone who never underwent any form of physical conditioning) to channel all his strength to his feet while carying heavy weights.

    Also it is true that before Zhang WuJi's internal strength wasn't that strong as JueYuan before he went into the QianKun Bag. Because Zhang WuJi only reached the intermediate level of JiuYang as JueYuan had already reached the advanced level. But that was due to JueYuan years of cultivating and Zhang only studied it for a few years. But when he went into the QianKun bag he received a sort of special massage. Helping him reach the final stages of JiuYang ShenGong. We could say that after Zhang came out of the bag that his internal energy was as powerful as JueYuan.
    Both JueYuan and Zhang WuJi mastered JiuYang ShenGong, one mastered it in the normal conventional way, the other did with the dangers of
    "Water and Fire Competing, Dragon and Tiger battling."
    Zhang WuJi's method was faster (also better in my humble opinion) than the conventional way like JueYuan. So we could say that Zhang's internal energy was not inferior to JueYuan, perhaps even stronger due to the special way Zhang reached his mastery of this art.
    Example Shi PoTian in Ode To Gallantry.

    To drfarook: No one knows how Feng QingYang learnt DuGu JiuJian. There were no clues in the novel on how he learnt this skill.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

  9. #29
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    &gt; By using his most important style should hint that he did
    &gt; his best. Showing off his powerful internal strength was
    &gt; the best way to prove his superiority.

    Not true. H7G's best technique is his Dragon Palms. Does it mean that every attack he throws has to be at 100% power? Definitely not. Before he got into the bag, ZWJ only had 9Yang beyond the basics. Does it mean that everytime he powers up his 9Yang, he had to use it at 100%? Not 80, 50, or 30%? Not so. Fighters know how to control their strength.

    JMZ used that particular inner power doesn't mean he used *ALL* of that particular inner power he got! There's no correlation between what type of technique or inner power he used and what level of intensity he's using it at.

    &gt; The moment he arrived
    &gt; at the monastery he knew that none of those monks were his
    &gt; match. He did his homework and made sure he studied the
    &gt; background of ShaoLin. (JiuMo Zhi isn't the reckless type).
    &gt; Not only did he want to defeat ShaoLin, he wanted to prove
    &gt; that the martial arts of Tibet were superior to Chinese
    &gt; martial arts.

    Right! But the important point is not how he knew he was better than anyone from Shaolin, the key point is how to make the Shaolin monks know that he's better than anyone in Shaolin, and the best and the most convincing way to show it is to physically beat every one of them (at least among the stronger monks). And this gave him very good reasons to conserve his energy, afterall, what good does impressing someone through "gentle talking" do you if you have exhausted yourself to the point that you ended up getting yourself sounded beaten by those monks?

    &gt; There is no clear proof or evidence to support that
    &gt; reverend YiDeng is better than Jiu MoZhi, however judging
    &gt; from the descriptions in both novels, their mastery of
    &gt; internal energy is similar to each other and therefore we
    &gt; could say that they are at least equals.

    Again, you cannot objective prove beyond any doubt that JMZ was "gentle talking" with full power. And it's too quick to jump to the conclusion that they are equally strong in inner power based on this unproven assumption!

    &gt; But I do not understand that would you would say that JiuMo
    &gt; Zhi wouldn't try his best. A monk, who intentionally went
    &gt; to ShaoLin Monastery with the sole purpose of humilating
    &gt; ShaoLin and Chinese martial arts by showing off his martial
    &gt; arts, would not try his best.

    I said he would not try his best throught those "gentle talkings". I did not say he would not try his best in his entire time in Shaolin. I agree that he was trying to humiliate Shaolin, but it's much better to do it through actual fight. Since he was prepared and knew well in advance that he was going to get into several fights with the Shaolin monks, he wouldn't have to worry too much about impressing the monk through this gentle talking, especially when trying the hardest he could then might possibly have a negative effect to his effectiveness later on when he actually had to combat the monks, when it REALLY counts!

    &gt; While reverend YiDeng who only requested to see YingGu would.

    Since he was begging YingGu, the gentler the talking, the better it would be. And the most gentle way to talk required him to use his power at full force.

    &gt; Also reverend JueYuan used his footprints to eradicate the
    &gt; lines left behind by He ZuDao. As Xiao Feng used his feet to
    &gt; wipe away the characters written by Duan YanQing. JueYuan
    &gt; used one movement only to eradicate the chessboard, but Xiao
    &gt; Feng used several movements to wipe away those characters.

    Not true. This is what is said in the novel:
    當下挑著那擔大鐵桶,吸了一口氣,將畢生所練功力都下 沉雙
    腿,在那棋局的界線上一步步的走了過去。只見他腳上鐵 鏈拖
    過,石板上便現出一條五寸來寬的印痕,何足道所劃的界 線登
    時抹去。

    Rough translation:
    "[JY] immediately picked up the buckets, took a deep breath, and concentrated the inner power that he spent his whole life practicing to his two leg, and walked across the Go board step after each step. As the chains shakled around his feet were dragged across the board, they left behind a 5-inch wide trench on the stone ground, immediately wiped away the lines that HZD drew."

    Another part on the same page:
    天鳴等自知一人內力再強,欲在石極上踏出印痕,也決無可能,
    只因覺遠挑了一對大鐵桶,桶中裝滿了水,總共何止四百余斤 之
    重,這幾百斤巨力從他肩頭傳到腳上的鐵鏈,向前拖曳, 便如一
    把大鑿子在石板上敲鑿一般,這才能鏟去何足道所劃的界 線,倘若覺
    遠空身而行,那便萬萬不能了。

    Rough translation:
    "[Shaolin Abbot] Tian Ming obviously knew that no matter how strong one's inner power is, it's impossible to leave imprints on a stone ground by stomping/stepping on it. It's only because JY had a pair of large metal buckets full of water on his shoulders, totalling no less than 400+ "jin" (a unit of measurement of weight). These several hundred "jins" of weight passed from his shoulders to the metal chains around his feet, and as they're dragged across, it worked like a large hammer stamping on the ground. Only this way could the lines drawn by HZD could be wiped, if JY was walking without accessories, this would be impossible to achieve."

    &gt; A martial artist wrote to me ad said that conditioning is
    &gt; very important.

    No offense, but this sounds funny when you use it in this debate over two characters.

    &gt; Someone like Xiao Feng must have had a
    &gt; extremely hard physical training, his muscles, bones and
    &gt; tendons are much better develped than someone like
    &gt; JueYuan who only spend his time reading Buddhist scriptures.

    He also devoted much of his life 9Yang, believing that it's something Dharma left behind for him to practice. Granted that he never thought he could use it in combats, but he understood very well that he had become much stronger after years of practice, and, most importantly, he knew how to use his acquired strength well and effectively, as explicitly mentioned in the novel. He only didn't know how to fight, for he never learnt any stances/movements that enable him to land his hits on an opponent.

    And as I said in my first message, even if we are to assume that JY could not use his inner power effectively, this below-optimal level enough to show that he's comparable to the Greats', but this same level is not comparable to XF's.

    &gt; It's true that internal strenght can help resist the
    &gt; pain, but JueYuan was channeling all his strength to his
    &gt; feet to make the prints, therefore his internal energy
    &gt; wasn't able to protect his physical body.

    No, first of all, the main part that do the work on the ground was the chains, not his feet. Second, if he had anymore inner power left, he direct it to help him resist pain. XF never felt pain, (at least, not mentioned,) indicating that he could very well be stronger than JY in terms of inner power. But then again, I had said the "pain" is only secondary, since JY had tools and needed them to achieve something XF didn't need to achieve. That already put them in two different leagues. The "pain" point is moot now.

    &gt; Everyone keeps saying that JueYuan had an advantage with
    &gt; the buckets of water, but do we realize how difficult
    &gt; it is for an untrained man, (someone who never underwent
    &gt; any form of physical conditioning) to channel all his
    &gt; strength to his feet while carying heavy weights.

    Untrained in combats, but very-well trained in using his strength in non-combat actions, (like wiping the floor, picking up heavy objects, running and shouting, etc.) The book explicitly stated he could use his inner power as his heart desired, and I've even provided the quote, so why keep ignoring/avoiding that line as if it doesn't exist?

    &gt; Also it is true that before Zhang WuJi's internal strength
    &gt; wasn't that strong as JueYuan before he went into the
    &gt; QianKun Bag. Because Zhang WuJi only reached the intermediate
    &gt; level of JiuYang as JueYuan had already reached the advanced
    &gt; level. But that was due to JueYuan years of cultivating and
    &gt; Zhang only studied it for a few years. But when he went into
    &gt; the QianKun bag he received a sort of special massage.
    &gt; Helping him reach the final stages of JiuYang ShenGong. We
    &gt; could say that after Zhang came out of the bag that his
    &gt; internal energy was as powerful as JueYuan. Both JueYuan and
    &gt; Zhang WuJi mastered JiuYang ShenGong, one mastered it in the
    &gt; normal conventional way, the other did with the dangers of
    &gt; "Water and Fire Competing, Dragon and Tiger battling."

    Huh? I never said JY was stronger than ZWJ in inner power. Some other poster was stating that ZWJ was stronger than JY, and JY's inner power was only as strong as ZWJ's was BEFORE he got into the bag. And I even replied by stating how the book explicitly mentioned JY's practice of 9Yang is already "大成" (completely finished/mastered), the very same words Jin Yong used to describe ZWJ AFTER he came out of the bag.

    &gt; Zhang WuJi's method was faster (also better in my humble
    &gt; opinion) than the conventional way like JueYuan. So we could
    &gt; say that Zhang's internal energy was not inferior to JueYuan,
    &gt; perhaps even stronger due to the special way Zhang reached
    &gt; his mastery of this art. Example Shi PoTian in Ode To Gallantry.

    I disagree with your opinion that ZWJ's method is better other than the fact that it allowed him to achieve greatness faster. But since this has basically nothing to do with our main discussion I don't intend to debate with you over this issue. I'll just state my reasons. Basically, if you improve slowly and gradually, you also learn through the process how to control your strength. Remembered when ZWJ just burst out of the bag, he tried to hop (or run/jump/whatever) but couldn't control his strength, ended up jumping too high unexpectedly and hit the ceiling of the room. Had he learnt it through the conventional way, this should not have happened. It wasn't until he after learnt QianKunDaiNuoYi when he could really control his strength.

    To Charlieboy:
    &gt; 1. Is it stated(by the narrator) in any of the JY novels
    &gt; that this deterioration exists or is it stated by a character/s?

    It's neither. If is was explicitly stated by JY himself, (or through one of the characters' month...) we wouldn't talking about it as much as we do now.

    It's mainly come from a group of readers who form such a conjecture after making observations from the book. They see that there's a decline of the overall martial arts level as the chronological setting of the novel come closer to modern time.

    &gt; 2. What is the explanation of such a pattern?

    Here are some possible explanations:
    1. "Freebies" such as the snake bladders that YG ate were all gone... (as the snakes were about to go extinct anyway...)
    2. People with knowledges and skills died unexpectedly before they have a chance to pass them on to others... (eg. XF...)
    3. Due to lack of trust, masters don't teach everything they know to their students. (eg. Mei Nian Sheng with his three students in A Deadly Secret, Wu Ya Zi and Ding Chun Qiu in DGSD.)
    4. Teaching is somewhat limited by the talents of the teachers' and the students'. If students' talents are low, some of the teachers' knowledges would likely be lost when they died. And talented students might not learn well under bad teachers. You need to match good teachers with good students, but that's improbable.
    5. As military technologies advance, people lost interest in spending decades to be strong, especially you can just buy a shot gun and be just as dangerous.

    Really, though, it's true in real life, that as soon as the public interest declines, the quality goes with it. Think Chinese Opera, Classical Music... etc. What classical composer do we have now that is comparable to Mozart, Beetleven, etc?

    Once in a while, there are talented fighters who would invent new and powerful kungfu, and thus slow down the declining process a bit, but they don't appear as fast as strong fighters disappear (from dying through fighting, etc.,) so overall the level of martial arts quality is on a declining trend.

  10. #30

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    That's the thing I hate about arguing against Kenny or Lava, they post such huge long posts that my head spins just from scrolling through them. So I almost lose those arguments automatically. <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/crash.gif" border="0">

    <IMG SRC="smilies/starwars.gif" border="0">
    春花秋月几时了,
    往事知多少?
    小楼昨夜又东风,
    故国不堪回首明月中.
    雕栏玉砌应犹在,
    只是朱颜改.
    问君能有几多愁,
    恰似一江春水向东流.
    --南唐后主,李煜.

  11. #31
    Senior Member Charlieboy's Avatar
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    "5. As military technologies advance, people lost interest in spending decades to be strong, especially you can just buy a shot gun and be just as dangerous"

    I did think this to be the most likely reason for JY if he did intentionally want to show the decline of martial arts - that is, the general populous and not the individual - what I do find unusual is that, if there is a decline, why does it seem to have affected the individuals too?

    For instance the greatest fighters of earlier dynasties do *seem* to be more powerful than the greats of later eras - surely there will always be the exception to the rule, a martial arts prodigy to exceed others before him, given that better diets as time passes would allow better physical conditioning(snake bladders excepted, surely not all the earlier greats ate them?)

  12. #32
    Senior Member Laviathan's Avatar
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    Angry

    To KENNY;

    Sorry for buttin' for this is actually a discussion between you and Athena, but it's so interesting that I will violate my "oath of retirement" just one more time.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> the key point is how to make the Shaolin monks know that he's better than anyone in Shaolin, and the best and the most convincing way to show it is to physically beat every one of them </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    IMO, no matter how good Jiumozhi's martial arts abilities are, if he would try to "physically beat every one of them" he will eventually get exhausted, for he is just ONE man, while the Shaolin monks are with many. That's not the best way to show his superiority. The best way is to use his full potential to impress and stun the monks, first with his high level of internal power and later with his mastery of 72 Ultimate Arts, in order to lower the morale of the enemy and discourage them from fighting him... and Jiumozhi did exactly just that. Abbot Xuanci after witnessing Jiumozhi's power was already willing to release the Indian monks, and when Jiumozhi defeated Xuandu with his finger techniques, all the other monks knew that they could not beat Jiumozhi. If it wasn't for Xuzhu, Shaolin would have admitted defeat. Throughout the entire story, we see that Jiumozhi was a big show-off, and at Shaolin Temple, showing his full power was a clever way of avoiding any unneccessary fighting. So I can't see why Jiumozhi would hold back.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> Since he was begging YingGu, the gentler the talking, the better it would be. And the most gentle way to talk required him to use his power at full force. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Not true. In the novel it was clearly stated:
    (Hope my Chinese program works...)
    越 是 內 功 高 深 , 傳 音 越 是 柔 和

    "the higher the internal power, the more gentle the transmission of sound will be" (Chapter 34)

    Kenny, somehow you interpret this as the more power you use, the more genlte it will be. But that's not it: it just means that when your internal power is high, your voice will sound gentle. Yideng's voice sounds very gentle, thus his internal power must be very high, period.

    Besides, when Yideng heard Yang Guo's roar, he thought:
    他 嘯 聲 過 于 霸 道 , 使 的 不 是 純 陽 正 氣

    "his roar is too agressive, not a product of Orthodox Pure Yang Energy."

    Yang Guo's internal power is clearly stronger than Yideng's, but he is not able to talk as gentle as Yideng. Yideng's power is based on abundant Orthodox Pure Yang Energy, that's why his voice sounds so gentle.

    About Jueyuan: Jin Yong wrote that "no matter how strong one's inner power is, it's impossible to leave IMPRINTS on a stone ground by stepping on it." Jueyuan stepped on the lines of the Go board, making imprints to erase the lines. Jin Yong used the word 鏟 , Jue Yuan "SCRAPED" the ground even, while Xiao Feng 擦 'WIPED" the words away. I think there's really a difference between these two actions. Did Xiao Feng actually made IMPRINTS in the ground with his foot? Can Xiao Feng SCRAPE the ground even just by stepping on it while carrying two heavy iron buckets? Dunno.

    You already mentioned that Jueyuan "concentrated the inner power that he spent his whole life practicing to his two legs". While the buckets and chains work as tools for scraping the ground, it now also become a burden... we all know that the power of lifting weights are derived from the legs, now he must use his legs to to let the power sink enough to scrape the ground but he also has to make sure he'd still be able to hold the weight.

    Besides, in the novel it is clearly mentioned: 覺 遠 鏟 到 此 詩 , 丹 田 中 真 氣 雖 越 來 越 盛 , 但 兩 腿 終 是 血 肉 之 物 , 早 已 大 感 酸 痛

    "Up to this moment, although the internal strength becomes more and more abundant within his Dantian, Jueyuan's legs are still just flesh and blood and were aching."

    From this we can see that Jueyuan's internal power was far more powerful than he was able to show, due to the limited capacity of his physical body. So your argument that "he could use his inner power as his heart desired" is in my opinion not that reliable anymore. Don't get me wrong, I'm not ignoring/avoiding it, but at least we can place some more emphasis on the physical aspect.

    1. Xiao Feng was an expert martial artist with a perfectly developed and conditioned body, Jueyuan wasn't.

    2. Jueyuan had a great mastery of his internal power, but although his internal power was getting more abundant, he felt pain because his body was not well conditioned. He could use his power as his heart desires, but this use of internal power is still limited due to his lack of (outer) physical strength.

    3. Jueyuan made imprints in the floor by scraping it. Xiao Feng wiped the ground.

    4. Jueyuan was aided by his chains and buckets, but these are also a burden. His advantages and disadvantages cancel each other out.

    But of course, we can never really know for sure who's better, because there are inconsistencies within Jin Yong novels. Like in ROCH, Guo Jing thought it impossible to write on wood with the power of your fingers, let alone stone. But in Smiling Proud Wanderer, Abbot Fangzheng and Beggars Clan leader Jie Feng wrote words on the pillar of the Shaolin Temple Hall with their fingers.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> Huh? I never said JY was stronger than ZWJ in inner power. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I don't think Athena meant it this way, she just wanted to share her view on this matter.

    I too think Zhang Wuji's power is in the end better than Jueyuan's. Most of the time, the mroe dangerous the training is, the better the results. A good example is Shi Potian of Ode to Gallantry. But as you already mentioned, both Zhan and Jueyuan mastered Nine Yang, so we really cannot say whose power is higher. But at least we can be sure that Zhang Wuji after learning Qiankun Danuoyi was able to use his power in a much more sophisticated way than Jueyuan. This is obvious when we look at how Zhang Wuji got trapped inside the secret chamber of the Ming Cult together with Xiaochao. Wuji used his full Nine Yang power to push the Wuwang Door but failed. After he learned Qiankun Danuoyi he could push the door open with one hand, almost without effort. I am sure that Jueyuan himself, despite his years of training, would not have been able to push the door, because in this case, pushing with all your Nine Yang might does not involve experience, it's just pushing, it's the strength that counts. But Zhang Wuji, with the same level of power as Jueyuan, could open the door after learning the Qiankun way of shifting the energies within the body. This is a good example of how internal power alone is not enough to perform great feats, technique is also important. And it's exactly mastery of technique which Jueyuan lacked.

    OK, that's about it. Hope you won't get tired of my rambling. I will now retreat to the mountains (busy with exams <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"> ) so I won't get enter this discussion again. Athena, I pass the torch to you once again.

    [ January 01, 2003: Message edited by: Laviathan ]

    [ January 01, 2003: Message edited by: Laviathan ]
    對 敵 須 狠 , 斬 草 除 根 , 男 女 老 幼 , 不 留 一 人

  13. #33
    Senior Member Goofy's Avatar
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    Cool

    Kenny, I remember posting that comment for I felt at the time that many people take the deteriorate theory too much at heart.

    I think martial arts have their ups and down and when there are many experts at the same time, the martial skills would be the most advance then for everyone would try to vy for the best.
    "History's third dimension is always fiction."
    -- The Glass Bead Game, Hermann Hesse

  14. #34

    Post

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">Originally posted by Laviathan:
    <STRONG>To KENNY;

    Sorry for buttin' for this is actually a discussion between you and Athena, but it's so interesting that I will violate my "oath of retirement" just one more time.
    </STRONG></font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>


    <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"> Lava, just give up that "oath" and come out of retirement already. That person to whom you took the oath is an ingrate who isn't worthy of you or your oath. Just trust me on this, come back. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

    One more thing

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"><STRONG>4. Jueyuan was aided by his chains and buckets, but these are also a burden. His advantages and disadvantages cancel each other out.</STRONG></font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    The buckets and chains might have been a burden to JueYuan in movement, but they were certainly assets that helped him wipe the ground clean. In this specific instance that we are talking about here, the buckets and chains certainly was not a disadvantage to JueYuan.
    春花秋月几时了,
    往事知多少?
    小楼昨夜又东风,
    故国不堪回首明月中.
    雕栏玉砌应犹在,
    只是朱颜改.
    问君能有几多愁,
    恰似一江春水向东流.
    --南唐后主,李煜.

  15. #35
    Senior Member Athena's Avatar
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    Post

    To Kenny: I do realize that the examples, "evidence" I gathered are circumstantial and cannot really back-up my point.
    However I cannot see you coming up with any solid proof either. You're clinging on a few quotes from the novel and give it YOUR interpretation of it and tell me that is the fact.

    Also I find the tone of your posts rather patronizing towards me. Even dismissing my points very easily like you would treat an annoying infant.
    Perhaps I'm being a bit too sensitive here
    and you don't mean it that way. However I certainly get the impression you don't treat me seriously and my posts seriously .
    If I have offended you in any way in this post I do apologize but I thought I would make my feelings crystal clear on this matter.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

  16. #36
    Senior Member TigerWong's Avatar
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    Post

    Glad to see ya here again, Athena. Read any more Gu Long books lately?

    As far as Kenny's tone, that's just the way he posts. While it can sound a bit arrogant, it's always objective and never really demeaning. It's certainly blunt. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"> And that can cause a bit of tension cause he doesn't mince words but I also appreciate the way he gets to the point. I don't know... That's just the way I see it from reading his stuff on the other JY forum.

    And I believe he does treat your post seriously. Otherwise, he wouldn't even bother to respond to it at all! Believe me, he rarely replies to anything unless he sees an interesting point to touch on. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

    Well, that's just my opinion and I can't speak for him. But I respect both you guys and am learning quite a bit from this thread. Hopefully, we can stay to the topic and not let things get too personal!

    Happy New Year to all!

  17. #37

    Post

    I'll back up TigerWong here, I have known Kenny for quite a bit and that's just the way Kenny posts. And you can be assured that he takes your post seriously, or else, like Tiger said, he wouldn't even have posted a response.

    And it's a good thing too, you see how his posts get. I mean, if he debates much on the JY forum or this one, I would never get into this b/c I just couldn't make it posts that long in one sitting. <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">

    All in all, why couldn't more people post like me? Short, sweet, to the point! Not to mention as ambiguous and as tongue-in-cheek as possible? I mean, really. <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">
    春花秋月几时了,
    往事知多少?
    小楼昨夜又东风,
    故国不堪回首明月中.
    雕栏玉砌应犹在,
    只是朱颜改.
    问君能有几多愁,
    恰似一江春水向东流.
    --南唐后主,李煜.

  18. #38
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    Hi Lav,

    I actually thought you would come back and start posting. When I was gone, a friend of mine (not anyone who's posted under this particular thread) informed me through email that a similar discussion was being held, and how that discussion went. So I already knew where you'd stand on this issue, and I wouldn't believe for a moment that you wouldn't respond as long as you have the opportunity to see my posts.

    Lav wrote:
    &gt; IMO, no matter how good Jiumozhi's martial arts abilities
    &gt; are, if he would try to "physically beat every one of
    &gt; them" he will eventually get exhausted, for he is just
    &gt; ONE man, while the Shaolin monks are with many. That's not
    &gt; the best way to show his superiority.

    That's why I wrote "(at least among the stronger monks)" after "physically beat every one of them". You only quoted part of it. And the fact of the matter is, he did beat "everyone" of them, ("everyone" was in quote because there was only one, but this "one" was strong enough to be the representative of the top-ranking class,) to the point where the top ranking monks in Shaolin all accepted the "fact" that they're inferior to JMZ, until something unexpected happened, and that's when XZ came out to challenge JMZ.

    But I do agree that he might very well become physically exhausted, but that just gave him a better reason to conserve his energy when he was doing those "gentle talking". Keep in mind that his ultimate goal was not just to humiliate the Shaolin monks, he actually wanted the Shaolin Temple to disband! And no one in his right mind would want that without expecting tough fights from Shaolin! And JMZ certainly knew what he was going to get, a strong resistence from the monks! If XZ didn't come out to challenge JMZ, it's highly likely that each of the high-ranking monks would come out and challenge JMZ one by one, (or unless you expect the most prestigious sect in the world would just disband just because someone can "gentle talk" and then did a few circus tricks better than you.)

    &gt; The best way is to use his full potential to impress and
    &gt; stun the monks, first with his high level of internal power
    &gt; and later with his mastery of 72 Ultimate Arts, in order to
    &gt; lower the morale of the enemy and discourage them from
    &gt; fighting him... and Jiumozhi did exactly just that.

    He did that ...and more, afterward. He also defeated one of the top monks in the temple in physical combats, within seconds too.

    Making someone else in awe of your abilities and impressing others are much different from humiliating them.

    All these "gentle talking" sure made the monks impress, and his mastery of the 72 Technique certainly made them feel down and depress, or even a bit ashame of themselves and blaming themselves for not accomplishing such high level even after decades of practice. But it's still different from being humiliated. The difference is that no matter how impressive JMZ's gentle talking or his 72 Techniques were, the Shaolin could always hide their feelings. It's when they're soundedly beaten in front of everyone else, including many "outsiders" from other temples when they could no longer hide their embarrassment.

    A silly analogy: Let's say I'm playing basketball by myself and am just shooting lay-ups, (and miss occasionally, too <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">.) Another guy is on an adjacent court shooting 3's from 35 feet away, and never misses! Certainly, I should be impressed by his skills, or might even feel uncomfortable to perform so badly myself in front of his presence, but I would not feel humiliated in this situation. Even if he makes comments on my (lack of) skills, I might just laugh and keep on playing and pretend nothing had happened. It's only when I'm playing him one-on-one and got beaten 51-4 that I really feel "humiliated" (depends on how seriously I take B-ball. In real life, I don't,) because it's when I'm actually playing against him when a direct comparison is made in front of everyone else's eyes.

    &gt; Abbot
    &gt; Xuanci after witnessing Jiumozhi's power was already willing
    &gt; to release the Indian monks,

    That's only because the abbot can no longer objectively prove that the 72 Techniques were Shaolin-exclusive, despite knowing it well in his heart that it's true. So he no longer had the rights to keep the Indian monk locked up.

    &gt; and when Jiumozhi defeated Xuandu
    &gt; with his finger techniques, all the other monks knew that they
    &gt; could not beat Jiumozhi. If it wasn't for Xuzhu, Shaolin would
    &gt; have admitted defeat. Throughout the entire story, we see that
    &gt; Jiumozhi was a big show-off, and at Shaolin Temple, showing his
    &gt; full power was a clever way of avoiding any unneccessary
    &gt; fighting. So I can't see why Jiumozhi would hold back.

    You seem to have forgotten that JMZ also wanted Shaolin to disband, and I don't see it happening without Shaolin fighting to their last man, (or at least, last high-ranking monk.)

    This is why he had to hold back when doing the less-convincing part, just in case he needed a bit more gas doing the more-convincing part, a part where he actually had to fight the monks.

    &gt; Not true. In the novel it was clearly stated:
    &gt; (Hope my Chinese program works...)
    &gt; 越 是 內 功 高 深 , 傳 音 越 是 柔 和
    &gt; "the higher the internal power, the more gentle the
    &gt; transmission of sound will be" (Chapter 34)
    &gt; Kenny, somehow you interpret this as the more power you
    &gt; use, the more genlte it will be. But that's not it: it just
    &gt; means that when your internal power is high, your voice
    &gt; will sound gentle. Yideng's voice sounds very gentle,
    &gt; thus his internal power must be very high, period.

    I agree that it's to a certain extent my own interpretation of the situation, but then again what you wrote does not prove positive that my interpretation is wrong. For example, what if YD was "shouting" without using inner power at all? (Like ordinary persons do,) his voice would probably reach 50 meters away, and there would be much "white noise," (for lack of a better term...) making his speaking unclear. What if he "shout" again with a tiny bit of inner power? The voice would carry further, but it definitely would also sound clearer, enable him to sound less "shouting-like", or gentler. Likewise, I believe the more inner power you use in your "speech", the more it would sound gentle.

    &gt; Besides, when Yideng heard Yang Guo's roar, he thought:
    &gt; 他 嘯 聲 過 于 霸 道 , 使 的 不 是 純 陽 正 氣
    &gt; "his roar is too agressive, not a product of Orthodox Pure Yang Energy."
    &gt; Yang Guo's internal power is clearly stronger than Yideng's

    "Stronger" in this case should be interpreted as "more aggressive", not "stronger" as in "more abundant." They are about the same when it comes to the latter interpretation, certainly not "clearly more abundant".

    &gt; but he is not able to talk as gentle as Yideng.
    &gt; Yideng's power is based on abundant Orthodox Pure Yang
    &gt; Energy, that's why his voice sounds so gentle.

    So your point is that being equally impressive in "gentle talking" does not imply stronger "overall" inner power? Ha! I'm now wondering why you're debating w/ me and not Athena... Especially when the inner power that JMZ used, XWXG, should not even be classified as "Orthodox Pure Yang Energy"!!

    My whole point in this part of the debate is that if you argue JMZ was CERTAINLY doing the best he could, and then from this unproven assumption to support your hypothesis that YD's inner power was at least as impressive (possibly better) than JMZ's, you are forcing the issue!

    &gt; About Jueyuan: Jin Yong wrote that "no matter how strong
    &gt; one's inner power is, it's impossible to leave IMPRINTS
    &gt; on a stone ground by stepping on it." Jueyuan stepped on
    &gt; the lines of the Go board, making imprints to erase the lines.

    He did step on the board, but it was the contact between the chains and the ground that erased the lines. He had to lift up his feet so to lift up the chains, then stomped on the ground to let the chain hit the ground.

    And the quote "no matter how strong one's inner power is, it's impossible to leave IMPRINTS on a stone ground by stepping on it" does not imply that JY eventually left imprints on the ground. I think you've misread it.

    Another silly analogy: I see someone splint across in front of my eyes at 30mph. I know that it's impossible because I know for sure no one runs that fast. Oh! I get it! He wasn't running, he was FLYING!!! And he was actually juggernauted in front of my eyes by a cannon!

    And this is basically how the story goes in the book: Tian Ming thought JY left imprints on the ground with his own feet, and thought that it's impossible, but on closer inspection, it was actually the chains around his feet that did the work. And Jin Yong further explained that Jue Yuan could not have the lines erased without the chains and the buckets.

    &gt; Jin Yong used the word 鏟 , Jue Yuan "SCRAPED" the ground
    &gt; even, while Xiao Feng 擦 'WIPED" the words away.

    Sigh... That's a Liberal Arts major at work here, trying to differentiate "scraped" and "wipe"... So JY "scraped" lines that were HALF-AN-INCH deep with tools, and XF "wiped" away the words that were each DEEPLY-CARVED/WRITTEN onto the stone with his bare feet until they completely disappeared. (And I did not make up the depths!) Does it make JY more impressive just because Jin Yong used the word scrape rather than wipe? What is "wiping" away words that are possibly inches deep til they completely disappear? It's no difference from "scraping"!

    And let me repeat again, it's the CHAINS shackled around JY's feet that scraped the ground.

    And remember this, JueYuan's only one ultimate goal was to erase the lines, in whatever way he could get that achieved! If you really think that what XF did was easier, (even though I would strongly disagree with your thinking,) JY could always opt to drop everything on his shoulders and did what XF did, but the novel explicitly stated that the lines cannot be erased without accessories.

    &gt; I think
    &gt; there's really a difference between these two actions. Did
    &gt; Xiao Feng actually made IMPRINTS in the ground with his foot?

    The imprints were made with JY's chains.

    &gt; Can Xiao Feng SCRAPE the ground even just by stepping on it
    &gt; while carrying two heavy iron buckets? Dunno.

    As for XF's case, the novels explicitly said that he virtually turned the stone floor into a beach... Is making a "chip" or a "dent" on a piece of rock with a hammer more impressive? Or grinding a rock into sand with a hammer (or any other hand tool of your choice) more impressive? I bet you I can spend less energy doing the former.

    &gt; You already mentioned that Jueyuan "concentrated the inner
    &gt; power that he spent his whole life practicing to his
    &gt; two legs". While the buckets and chains work as tools for
    &gt; scraping the ground, it now also become a burden... we
    &gt; all know that the power of lifting weights are derived from
    &gt; the legs, now he must use his legs to to let the power
    &gt; sink enough to scrape the ground but he also has to make
    &gt; sure he'd still be able to hold the weight.

    If it really is such a burden, he could very well take his buckets off his shoulders and wipe the floor, but the novel explicitly stated he could not achieve his goal without tools, so whether they're a burden or not is moot.

    So in effect, what the novel stated is that JY worked better with tools than without them!

    &gt; Besides, in the novel it is clearly mentioned:
    &gt; 覺遠鏟到此詩,丹田中真氣雖越來越盛,但兩腿終是血肉 之物,已大感酸痛
    &gt; "Up to this moment, although the internal strength becomes more and more abundant within his Dantian,
    &gt; Jueyuan's legs are still just flesh and blood and were aching."
    &gt; From this we can see that Jueyuan's internal power was far more powerful than he was able to show, due to the
    &gt; limited capacity of his physical body.

    Like I said, JY did not have enough inner power to wipe the lines by himself. Whether he felt pain or not is independent from the fact that he couldn't wipe the line without tools. (And the fact is, he felt pain even with tools!)

    &gt; So your argument that "he could use his inner power as
    &gt; his heart desired" is in my opinion not that reliable
    &gt; anymore. Don't get me wrong, I'm not ignoring/avoiding
    &gt; it, but at least we can place some more emphasis on the
    &gt; physical aspect.

    The quote "he could use his inner power as his heart desired" implies that he could achieve the non-combative activities as well as anyone else with the same amount of internal energy could.

    And you've misread the book. The book stated that since he had felt the pain for quite sometime, he was more than happy to stop as soon as HZD complimented on his strong inner power. The second half of my previous sentence was omitted in your quote. JY felt pain and couldn't wait to stop, and HZD's compliments gave him a perfect time to stop! It didn't mean he couldn't power it up further, and thus did not contradict with the fact that he could utilize his power as his heart desired. Of course, Jin Yong also mentioned that Jue Yuan couldn't possibly wipe off the lines without tools, so we also know that it's no use to power up further.

    &gt; 1. Xiao Feng was an expert martial artist with a perfectly
    &gt; developed and conditioned body, Jueyuan wasn't.

    Like I said, JY could use his inner power effectively. He just didn't know any combative skills, (i.e. with his lack of training, he would never be able to land a single hit against good fighters.)

    &gt; 2. Jueyuan had a great mastery of his internal power, but
    &gt; although his internal power was getting more abundant, he
    &gt; felt pain because his body was not well conditioned. He
    &gt; could use his power as his heart desires, but this use
    &gt; of internal power is still limited due to his lack of
    &gt; (outer) physical strength.

    Already addressed above, that "having pain" doesn't imply "he can't go any further". But we also know "go any further" wouldn't help erasing the lines.

    &gt; 3. Jueyuan made imprints in the floor by scraping it.
    &gt; Xiao Feng wiped the ground.

    JY had chains. XF turned the stone road into a beach with his own feet.

    &gt; 4. Jueyuan was aided by his chains and buckets, but
    &gt; these are also a burden. His advantages and disadvantages
    &gt; cancel each other out.

    Jin Yong explicitedly stated without these "burden" (which I disagree that they are), Jue Yuan can't wipe out the lines anyway!

    &gt; Like in ROCH, Guo Jing thought it impossible to write
    &gt; on wood with the power of your fingers, let alone
    &gt; stone.

    It wasn't GJ who thought that. It was Qiu Chu Ji, who hadn't seen YiDeng for ages and would've no idea how much YD had improved.

    &gt; But in Smiling Proud Wanderer, Abbot Fangzheng and
    &gt; Beggars Clan leader Jie Feng wrote words on the
    &gt; pillar of the Shaolin Temple Hall with their fingers.

    If someone can prove beyond any doubts that Qiu's opinion was accurate, then I'm willing to believe FZ &gt; YD. But no one can.

    &gt; I too think Zhang Wuji's power is in the end better than Jueyuan's.

    With the help of QKDLY, I think he had better usage of inner power. But as for the "amount" of power inside, it's inconclusive.

    &gt; Most of the time, the mroe dangerous the training
    &gt; is, the better the results. A good example is Shi
    &gt; Potian of Ode to Gallantry.

    Not generally true. And the situation with SPT was very different from ZWJ. SPT mixed together two things that should never be mixed, but some fancy medicine saved him and he turned out better. In a sense, SPT "learnt" an inner power that had never been learnt by anyone else before. ZWJ had always learnt the same 9Yang that everyone else learnt, he just had some encounters that cut short the learning process (i.e. learning time). But it's still the same 9Yang.

    &gt; But as you already mentioned,
    &gt; both Zhan and Jueyuan mastered Nine Yang, so we really
    &gt; cannot say whose power is higher. But at least we can
    &gt; be sure that Zhang Wuji after learning Qiankun Danuoyi
    &gt; was able to use his power in a much more sophisticated
    &gt; way than Jueyuan.

    Yes, but you're now comparing 9Yang+QKDLY vs 9Yang alone. In terms of "abundance", they're still roughly equal. ZWJ just knows how to use 9Yang more effectively with QKDLY, even more effectively than other 9Yang masters, (assuming there are others other than JY.)

    And this doesn't contradict with the fact that JY already could use his inner power as his heart desired. If he had changed his mind to become a martial arts expert and learn a few techniques, he wouldn't be able to use his 9Yang more effectively in non-combat situations, but he would know what to do in a fight.

    &gt; This is obvious when we look at how
    &gt; Zhang Wuji got trapped inside the secret chamber of the
    &gt; Ming Cult together with Xiaochao. Wuji used his full Nine
    &gt; Yang power to push the Wuwang Door but failed. After
    &gt; he learned Qiankun Danuoyi he could push the door open
    &gt; with one hand, almost without effort. I am sure that
    &gt; Jueyuan himself, despite his years of training, would
    &gt; not have been able to push the door, because in this case,
    &gt; pushing with all your Nine Yang might does not involve
    &gt; experience, it's just pushing, it's the strength that counts.
    &gt; But Zhang Wuji, with the same level of power as Jueyuan,
    &gt; could open the door after learning the Qiankun way of
    &gt; shifting the energies within the body.

    Right. But even if Z3F (a martial arts expert) had learnt the complete 9Yang, without QKDLY he still wouldn't be able to push open the rock/door.

    &gt; This is a good
    &gt; example of how internal power alone is not enough to perform
    &gt; great feats, technique is also important. And it's exactly
    &gt; mastery of technique which Jueyuan lacked.

    It's more like QKDLY that JY lacked if he wouldn't be able to push open the door. The same would also apply to other masters of the same level in terms of inner power, (eg. East Wicked, West Poison, Z3F... etc.)

    &gt; OK, that's about it. Hope you won't get tired of my
    &gt; rambling. I will now retreat to the mountains (busy
    &gt; with exams) so I won't get enter this discussion
    &gt; again. Athena, I pass the torch to you once again.

    You'll never know how long it took me to type all this up! <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">

    Athena wrote:
    &gt; I do realize that the examples, "evidence" I gathered are
    &gt; circumstantial and cannot really back-up my point.
    &gt; However I cannot see you coming up with any solid proof
    &gt; either. You're clinging on a few quotes from the novel
    &gt; and give it YOUR interpretation of it and tell me that is
    &gt; the fact.

    Because the burden of proof is on the one who first presents the hypothesis.

    Also, because my point is the same old arguments... (XF wiped the floor clean, JY couldn't... that makes XF&gt;JY=Greats in terms of inner power..., long-distance attacks... etc.)

    &gt; Also I find the tone of your posts rather patronizing
    &gt; towards me. Even dismissing my points very easily like you
    &gt; would treat an annoying infant. Perhaps I'm being a bit
    &gt; too sensitive here and you don't mean it that way. However
    &gt; I certainly get the impression you don't treat me seriously
    &gt; and my posts seriously.

    Sorry if you feel this way. I have an engineering backgroud, so I was trained to pay closer attention to "empirical" evidence and try to draw logical conclusions from those that I can find. I'm not a politician, so I don't know how to "please" others with my words. Just trying to be as objective as possible. I just complain when I read something that I disagree with, and I let my opinions known, but nothing personal. I even argue with people I consider to be my friends a lot (net-friends, at least.) Just ask Ken Cheng, Jason, or Moin how many times I've argued with them.

    &gt; If I have offended you in any way in this post I do
    &gt; apologize but I thought I would make my feelings crystal
    &gt; clear on this matter.

    Nah... no big deal. Over the years, I actually have suspected that I might have offended quite a few posters. But knowing that I never really have any intention to cause any harms to others, I don't really feel guilty about it and just keep going my own way... I'm a bit like HYS when I'm debating on the 'net... (not in real-life, though...)

    To TigerWong and Moin:
    Thanks for being understanding and for speaking out for me! <IMG SRC="smilies/bow.gif" border="0">

  19. #39
    Senior Member TigerWong's Avatar
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    I'm not debating on this topic since I don't have first-hand knowledge of Jin Yong novels, but it's been interesting reading. Just some questions regarding things that I'm picking up on...


    Gentle Talking:

    "Kenny, somehow you interpret this as the more power you use, the more gentle it will be. But that's not it: it just means that when your internal power is high, your voice will sound gentle. YiDeng's voice sounds very gentle, thus his internal power must be very high, period" - Laviathan

    "...I believe the more inner power you use in your "speech", the more it would sound gentle." - Kenny

    Are we really addressing the issue here? It sounds as if you both agree that Gentle Talking requires a lot of inner power. The question is what percentage of that person's TOTAL inner power he is expending. Speaking in role-playing game terms, lets say it costs 200 "points" to generate this effect. It sounds like Kenny is implying that YiDeng is using 80%+ (i.e. YiDeng has a total of 250) of his inner power to create this effect, whereas JMZ is using 40% (JMZ has 500). Whereas Lava is saying that YiDeng is not necessarily using that great a percentage of his inner power to create this effect. In other words, YiDeng's inner power is also abundant enough (500 pts) that he's only using 40%.

    I'm just picking these percentages as an example to illustrate the general point and not as an exact measurement. In fact, I'm not even sure if that's what Kenny and Lava are implying. Just my interpretation from what I read so far.

    Is there any real way to know for sure how hard either of them (YiDeng and JMZ) were working to Gentle Talk? If not, then theres no way to say who is better than the other from this example alone. Although it does say that both of them have at least crossed a very high threshold in terms of inner power that few others have. As evidenced by how impressed other fighters were at this feat. Funny, certain Gu Long characters also use Gentle Talk to demonstrate how uber-powerful they are. Must be a common theme. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

    But Athena never used this example to argue that one was more powerful than the other, only as one possible indication that they might be close. Should we totally dismiss this point? I mean, other people have used the Example of Similiar Feats to illustrate how fighters relate to each other. For example, the idea of being able to project ranged attacks. How do we know how much of their total inner power they were using in each situation? Yet fighters who display this ability are usually lumped together higher up on the ladder.

    Although one cannot say for sure that the Gentle Talking feat means that JMZ and YiDeng are on par, what indicates that they are not on par? Does anyone (Kenny?) feel that JMZ is BETTER than YiDeng and if so, how? (I realize the burden of proof was on Athena to show that they are close in power, but I'm asking a new question now.) Having not read the novels, I'm curious. Is it because there is something to prove that JMZ = Kieu Fung, and KF &gt; The Greats, therefore JMZ &gt; YiDeng?


    JMZ, XZ, and Lee Cheur Sau (Sorry, Cantonese is my native language and too lazy to look up the Mandarin pinyin. but I'm referring to the lady with the scar on her face who is Wong YuYan's grandmother):

    On an unrelated topic...

    Kenny: You say that JMZ fought to a draw with XZ, even though XZ's inner power is VASTLY superior, because of JMZ's experience and XZ's lack thereof. Lee Cheur Sau (or was it Tien San Tong Lao) practiced the same inner power as JMZ (Siu Mo Searn Gung), but should also have much more of it as she's been refining it for a much longer period of time. Also, she should have a good amount of fighting experience. So if XZ only fought JMZ to a draw, shouldn't Lee Cheur Sau DOMINATE either one of them? Yet the TVB serials seem to make it out to be that XZ was better than her, or at least closer in range than one should expect. Were the adaptations just totally off from the novel?

  20. #40
    Senior Member minutemanwayne's Avatar
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    I also have something to add.Take two guys. Each can lift 300 pounds. Now one has been practicing kung-fu all his life, doing vigorous explosive movements to further his punching,kicking techniques and training his body to withstand huge amounts of stress. The other does nothing but weight lifts, and so he seriously lacks physical conditioning. Now if we put them up in a contest to see who can punch through a peice of wood, who do you think would win? Of course the person who has training in martial arts would. Now let's say that however much one lifts would be the same as inner power. Now set these examples to KF and JY, KY being the one who has training and JY who doesn't. So of course KF can wipe always the floor because he actually had some training, while JY who doesn't can only scratch the floor with the aid of buckets of waters and chains. Just because he can wipe the floor doesn't mean his internal power is any stronger. It just means he had more training for this type of labor.
    Yo momma cat

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