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Thread: Martial arts comparison between DGSD era and LOCH/ROCH era

  1. #41

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    Punching through a piece of wood and wiping (or scraping) marks off of stone on the ground are 2 different things completely. I seriously doubt XF's training in punching, jumping, running, and other fighting techniques really helped him in an act like swiping his feet and clearing marks off of the ground. That's like assuming just because one guy has been training to play basketball all his life he would automatically turn out to be a great golfer as well. (Ask Michael Jordan or Charles Barkley how good their golf games are). <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

    If anything, JY, being the monk that he is, would have had more practice sweeping and cleaning the ground than XF. <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">
    春花秋月几时了,
    往事知多少?
    小楼昨夜又东风,
    故国不堪回首明月中.
    雕栏玉砌应犹在,
    只是朱颜改.
    问君能有几多愁,
    恰似一江春水向东流.
    --南唐后主,李煜.

  2. #42
    Senior Member minutemanwayne's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">Originally posted by Moinllieon:
    <STRONG>Punching through a piece of wood and wiping (or scraping) marks off of stone on the ground are 2 different things completely.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    The punching through wood thing was to set a small example of what JY and KF were doing. Although not similiar, it still involved the use of explosive movements.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">I seriously doubt XF's training in punching, jumping, running, and other fighting techniques really helped him in an act like swiping his feet and clearing marks off of the ground.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Punching,running,jumping, etc would condition the body for various activities greatly. Although inner power plays a major role in clearing a stone floor, you would still need the endurance and explosive movements to do it effectively. Clearing a stone floor would be similiar to running, only much more intense. If you've been running all your life, then of course your leg strength would be awesome and so clearing away writings away on a stone floor shouldn't pose much of a problem if you have the skills, inner power, and training.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> That's like assuming just because one guy has been training to play basketball all his life he would automatically turn out to be a great golfer as well. (Ask Michael Jordan or Charles Barkley how good their golf games are). <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"></font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Yes we all know MJ and CB sucks at golf. Sure they may have the physical conditioning from playing basketball most of their lives to stand up to golf, but they certainly lacked the techniques and skills to fully utilize it.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">If anything, JY, being the monk that he is, would have had more practice sweeping and cleaning the ground than XF. <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0"></STRONG></font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Actually JY should be able to wipe floors better. He might not be able to do it as fast as KF but certainly he knew all the secrets and tricks to sweaping the floor
    <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">
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  3. #43

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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">Originally posted by minutemanwayne:
    <STRONG>Punching,running,jumping, etc would condition the body for various activities greatly. Although inner power plays a major role in clearing a stone floor, you would still need the endurance and explosive movements to do it effectively. Clearing a stone floor would be similiar to running, only much more intense. If you've been running all your life, then of course your leg strength would be awesome and so clearing away writings away on a stone floor shouldn't pose much of a problem if you have the skills, inner power, and training.</STRONG></font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    But isn't that the point? Why else would you train yourself than to be stronger? So that you can do things with your feet that other people need tools to do.... What are we arguing about again?
    春花秋月几时了,
    往事知多少?
    小楼昨夜又东风,
    故国不堪回首明月中.
    雕栏玉砌应犹在,
    只是朱颜改.
    问君能有几多愁,
    恰似一江春水向东流.
    --南唐后主,李煜.

  4. #44
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    TigerWong wrote:
    &gt; Are we really addressing the issue here? It sounds as if
    &gt; you both agree that Gentle Talking requires a lot of inner
    &gt; power. The question is what percentage of that person's
    &gt; TOTAL inner power he is expending. Speaking in role-playing
    &gt; game terms, lets say it costs 200 "points" to generate this
    &gt; effect. It sounds like Kenny is implying that YiDeng is using
    &gt; 80%+ (i.e. YiDeng has a total of 250) of his inner power to
    &gt; create this effect, whereas JMZ is using 40% (JMZ has 500).
    &gt; Whereas Lava is saying that YiDeng is not necessarily using
    &gt; that great a percentage of his inner power to create this
    &gt; effect. In other words, YiDeng's inner power is also abundant
    &gt; enough (500 pts) that he's only using 40%.

    I can only speak for what I think w/ certainly. I could've misread/misunderstood what Lav said, but I'll try to explain what *I think* he said anyway...

    Lav's point is that (at least to me anyway), how gentle these speeches are depends only on your max level. In other words, a fighter w/ 1000 pts but is only using 10% (100pts) would sound gentler than a fighter w/ 500 pts but using 40% (200pts). But (I assume that's how he feels) the 500-pt fighter would allow his voice to carry further than the 1000-pt further because he's using more points to "push" his voice out (200pts vs. 100pts).

    But then, if I'm interpreting what he said correctly, the voice from the 1000-pt fighter at 10% would sound gentler then the 500-pt fighter at 20%, despite both fighters are effectively using 100pts, simply because the 1000-pt fighter has more potential inner power in him. And both voices can travel the same distance.

    To summarize, Lav believes (or at least I think he believes) that "gentleness" is independent of the amount used and depend only on the max possible amount one can use. And distance is dependent only on the amount *used* and independent of how much the max level the fighters can general. (The last sentence is only my assumption... He mentioned nothing about distance, but I think the amount of inner power used has to account for *something*!)

    My point of view is that both distance and gentleness depend on the amount used, and independent of the max, (unless, of course, you've reached your max...) So that a 500-pt fighter using 20% would sound just as gentle as 1000-pt fighter at 10%, and the voices can travel roughly the same distance. But if the 1000-pt fighter decides to use 60% of his inner power, his voice would sound gentler and travel further than the 500-pt fighter's, no matter how hard the latter tries. When the 500-pt fighter is using his full force to talk versus the 1000-pt fighter at 10%, the voice coming from the 500-pt fighter would travel further and at the same time gentler.

    Of course, this is just a crude explanation. There are other things that this gentle talking depends on. For example, some fighters just doesn't have the right type of inner power that allow them to "talk" gently. This explanation assumes that everything else is equal between the two fighters, and both have acquired the basic "requirements" for this task.

    &gt; I'm just picking these percentages as an example to
    &gt; illustrate the general point and not as an exact
    &gt; measurement.

    Of course, but it does present a nice way to demonstrate what we're thinking in our heads.

    &gt; Is there any real way to know for sure how hard either
    &gt; of them (YiDeng and JMZ) were working to Gentle Talk?

    No. Not at all.

    &gt; If
    &gt; not, then theres no way to say who is better than the
    &gt; other from this example alone.

    Exactly! And that's my take on this issue all along. My take the whole time is that you can't even conclude that they're equal! I'll explain it in more details below...

    &gt; But Athena never used this example to argue that one
    &gt; was more powerful than the other, only as one possible
    &gt; indication that they might be close. Should we totally
    &gt; dismiss this point?

    I think so...

    I'll try to explain the situation w/ the help of a bit simple math: let Eff be the amount of inner power a fighter is effectively using, Max be the total amount of inner power stored within a fighter, and Per is the percentage of inner power a fighter is using.

    So, obviously,

    Eff_YD = Max_YD * Per_YD

    Eff_JMZ = Max_JMZ * Per_JMZ.

    The argument began when Athena claimed that both YD and JMZ seemed equally impressive (Eff_YD = Eff_JMZ), so that the two fighters should be comparable in inner power (Max_YD ~= Max_JMZ).

    Then I objected. I stated that we can't be sure if JMZ was doing the best he could, (that Per_JMZ = 100%) and until then we can't draw any conclusion... (That's when I gave that Einstein-addition analogy... And note that initially I didn't bring YD in to this argument, just stating that I didn't believe Per_JMZ = 100%)

    Then Athena replied, saying that since JMZ was trying to impress the monks, Per_JMZ should be 100%. On the other hand, YD was trying to persuade YingGu, so there's no reason for him to use full force (Per_YD &lt; 100%, I guess that even makes Max_YD &gt; Max_JMZ.)

    Then I objected again, and just for the sake of counter-argument, stated that since JMZ should expect tough fights ahead, he should not waste his energy on this gentle talking... In fact, I think it's highly unlikely that Per_JMZ = 100%. Also,
    since the book says the more inner power you have, the gentler it'll sound, Per_YD could very well be 100%! (I don't really believe in it. I actually believe both Per_XX to be unknown, with pretty high confidence that Per_JMZ &lt; 100%. I only offered the YD part as a counter-argument...)

    And that's when Lav stepped in.

    Overall, even if I accept the assumption that Eff_YD = Eff_JMZ, that's still two equations with 4 unknowns, with absolutely no conclusion can be drawn. But Athena (and possible Lav too) is arguing that Per_JMZ = 100% and Per_YD &lt;= 100%, making Max_YD &gt;= Max_JMZ.

    Okay, I could've interpreted their opinion wrong. And feel free to correct me.

    &gt; I mean, other people have used the Example of Similiar
    &gt; Feats to illustrate how fighters relate to each other.
    &gt; For example, the idea of being able to project ranged
    &gt; attacks. How do we know how much of their total inner
    &gt; power they were using in each situation?

    A difference is that in this situation, with everything else being equal, we make the assumption that the longer the attack's range, the more advantage it gives to the fighter. With everything else being equal, wouldn't you rather buy a gun that has 100m range, rather than one w/ just 50m? And we also assume the fighters would take advantage of these things as much as possible. For example, if GJ could subdue a weaker fighter from 40 feet away, why didn't he and still decide to fight w/ physical contacts? To say that he can but he just didn't want to isn't a satisfying answer.

    And if HYS could hit long-distance, why would he still need to pick up a rock to flick w/ his finger?

    &gt; Does anyone (Kenny?) feel that JMZ is BETTER than
    &gt; YiDeng and if so, how? (I realize the burden of proof
    &gt; was on Athena to show that they are close in power,
    &gt; but I'm asking a new question now.) Having not read
    &gt; the novels, I'm curious. Is it because there is
    &gt; something to prove that JMZ = Kieu Fung, and KF &gt;
    &gt; The Greats, therefore JMZ &gt; YiDeng?

    Your last "question" pretty much stated why I believe JMZ &gt; YD... Although Athena herself doesn't believe JMZ = KF, I don't see any indication that JMZ is weaker than KF, MYB, or SYS... And FWIW, most readers seem to agree w/ me on this issue (check the chinese forum, for example. I said "FWIW" because I usually don't think popular opinions mean much, though.)

    There are more ways to look at it. Long-distance attack is actually what I use to separate the bests from the goods. And by LDA I meant someone who can actually injure an opponent from as far as 10+ feet away, not merely shoving your opponents a few steps backward from feet away. Trilogy fighters show that they can do the shoving, but no one has been injured from LDA yet. So I guess I can classify characters into three groups: LDA (Long-Distance Attackers), LDS (Long-Distance Shovers... sounds stupid, I know <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">), and conventional. JMZ is in LDA class, YD is in LDS. The monks in Heaven Dragon Temple were all LDS before learning 6MSJ (just one sword), and I'm not sure if I should classify them as LDA after they learnt 6MSJ. Let's underrate them and called them LDS for now, but that alone should put them in an elite class in Trilogy.

    In DGSD, JMZ could by himself defeat 5 of those monks from HDTemple. Can a Great defeat 5 fighters from LDS class? I'm not sure if Wong Yung is even strong enough to be in LDS, but even then I'm not sure a Great can defeat 5 WY's at once...

    BTW... Argh... You really set the burden on me now... <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

    &gt; Kenny: You say that JMZ fought to a draw with XZ, even
    &gt; though XZ's inner power is VASTLY superior, because of
    &gt; JMZ's experience and XZ's lack thereof. Lee Cheur Sau
    &gt; (or was it Tien San Tong Lao)

    Yes, you remember right. It's Lee.

    &gt; So if XZ only fought JMZ to a draw, shouldn't Lee Cheur
    &gt; Sau DOMINATE either one of them? Yet the TVB serials
    &gt; seem to make it out to be that XZ was better than her,
    &gt; or at least closer in range than one should expect. Were
    &gt; the adaptations just totally off from the novel?

    First of all, XZ vs. JMZ. At the time, XZ had a lot going against him. He's inexperienced. He didn't know how to use his techniques very well. And he's too kind of a person and badly lacked fighter's instinct, often giving his opponents a 2nd chance, a 3rd chance, a 4th... so on... (as in his fight w/ Ding Chun Chau...) Pretty much the only advantage he had was stronger inner power. In the fight, XZ took numerous hits from JMZ (barehanded), but it's just because he had more inner power, he wasn't injured. Instead, he just shook it off and kept on fighting. But because of his unfamiliarity w/ his techniques, he was never able to land a single hit in the entire fight! I'm going to leave out some details here, but in the end, JMZ got frustrated cheated by pulling out a dagger and threw it at him, injuring him. So it was a technical draw, but in reality JMZ should be the stronger fighter at that time. (Just imagine if they were both fighting w/ weapons to begin with... then XZ's inner power advantage would be at a minimum...)

    XZ's disadvantages seem to be mostly temporary though. Inexperience, unfamiliarity w/ techniques, etc., can be easily fixed. And he seemed to have improved on them by the time the novel ends. I doubt his personality (gentle, lack of fighter's instinct... etc.,) could be changed in such a short time though... Probably won't change in his entire lifetime. Still by the time the novel ends, I consider him to be equal to or slightly stronger than JMZ.

    The comparison between LCS and XZ would be similar to JMZ-vs-XZ, in my opinion.

    I don't know what to say about LCS-vs-JMZ, since we know very little about LCS. If you try the "breakdown" method that I sometimes use, I think LCS had a bit stronger inner power, is just as aggressive as JMZ. They both have very advanced techniques. Seemed equally talented too... But I think JMZ had more actual combat experience. So it comes down to InnerPower-vs-Experience... You make the final call.

    I found out that minutemanwayne and Moin had posted to this thread since I finished this post... I'll probably make another reply tonight... gotta eat now so no time! <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">

    <font size="1">[ January 02, 2003: Message edited by: Kenny ]</font>

  5. #45
    Senior Member TristeCoeur's Avatar
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    This debate is fun <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0"> Might just add a part in this:

    Kenny, about your argument on JMZ's "gentle talking"....you said he didn't use his full inner power as he wanted to reserve it for fighting the monks later.... <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0"> as if some gentle talking would make such an expert like JMZ exhasted.... <IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"> Nah I believe he in fact did show off his inner power to almost the highest level <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"> The monks could feel that he was showing off too the moment they heard his voice.

    As for JY....9 Yang only teaches you the core ideas of kungfu and the great inner power. It doesn't teach you any kungfu style or how to use them very well. JY's 9 Yang is great to protect himself like when Xiu Xiangzu (can't spell his name) punched him on Huasan peak, but I think he didn't know how to use it to attack others to the fullest extent. The novel said: he used the inner power of his life and stuff, doesn't mean that he could use the best of it to scrape the chess board, it just means that he used the best he could do. I mean he's more capable than that. If he knew how to use his 9 Yang effectively, he would not die from exhaustion after escaping from Shaolin ! All he did was to carry Z3F and GX running about 30 miles away from Shaolin. A master of 9 Yang (like ZWJ for instance) would not die. He would be exhausted only, but wouldn't die <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">

    A similar case would be the fight between XZ and JMZ in Shaolin. XZ's inner power far exceeded JMZ's, but he couldn't use the best of it to attack JMZ's. However when JMZ hit XZ, the very high inner power of XZ protected him from getting injured.

    I agree with others that XF's wiping off the writings off a normal rock isn't much better (if not just equal to) than JY's scraping the chess board on the rocky ground of Shaolin, made of specially selected rocks from [I don't know the words for it <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">]. The depths of the imprints were also different. Jin Yong described that in JY's case far more detailed than in XF's, I don't have time to check the novels right now but it did give me the impression that JY's work was harder. Even more so since because XF was a martial art genius, while JY had never learnt MA.
    • Discussion: the confusion of one person multiplied by the number present.
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  6. #46
    Senior Member Goofy's Avatar
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    Cool

    tristecoeur, about JY, I think he died from exhaustion and old age.

    He has been punishing himself physically by carrying buckets of water up and down the mountain. Then he did the stone wiping and carried the two people down the hill, escaping from the monks.

    Even if he had strong energy, he could get exhausted coupled with his age, he was just too tired.

    this is also the case of Ren wu xing in sod. He had been suffered in the cell, and when he came out, he just went on fighting his enemies nonstop.
    "History's third dimension is always fiction."
    -- The Glass Bead Game, Hermann Hesse

  7. #47
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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">Originally posted by drfarook:
    <STRONG>i agree with kenny, regarding xiao feng, but i think the main reason to xiao feng undefeated streak was due to his attitude. he has an attitude of" never say die" and what's more important, he's smart plus he's confident in each fight he fought in. in each fight, especially the tough one, he sort of could read his opponents move/s. and better still he could predict his opponents next move and by the time his opponents uses that move, he already has ways to encounter it. but the main thing regarding xiao feng is still, his attitude and he is confident.</STRONG></font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Mentality is always 50% of what you are doing.

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    KF always walk into a fight with high confidence. and this is the main reason why he's that good. i haven't really look into jue yuen, chang wu ji, yi deng and JMZ, though. no comment on that yet. but if you're to asked me who is better, i would say KF. not just only he is a good fighter, he has the mentality and attitude, the correct one. some of the other fighters have different attitude, wanting to defeat another one in order to become no.1 and also to rule an empire or setting up one. KF is defferent. really different. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">
    I can't write a love song the way I feel today, I can't sing no song of hope, I got nothing to say, Life is feeling kind of strange, since you went away, I sing this song to you wherever you are as my guitar lies bleeding in my arms...

  9. #49
    Senior Member Laviathan's Avatar
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    Wink

    To KENNY:

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> I actually thought you would come back and start posting. When I was gone, a friend of mine (not anyone who's posted under this particular thread) informed me through email that a similar discussion was being held, and how that discussion went. So I already knew where you'd stand on this issue, and I wouldn't believe for a moment that you wouldn't respond as long as you have the opportunity to see my posts. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Haha, forcing me out of retirement huh? Well OK, just one more and then I'm outta here! <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> But I do agree that he might very well become physically exhausted, but that just gave him a better reason to conserve his energy when he was doing those "gentle talking". Keep in mind that his ultimate goal was not just to humiliate the Shaolin monks, he actually wanted the Shaolin Temple to disband! And no one in his right mind would want that without expecting tough fights from Shaolin! And JMZ certainly knew what he was going to get, a strong resistence from the monks! If XZ didn't come out to challenge JMZ, it's highly likely that each of the high-ranking monks would come out and challenge JMZ one by one, (or unless you expect the most prestigious sect in the world would just disband just because someone can "gentle talk" and then did a few circus tricks better than you.) </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    My point is that by showing his level of internal power AND his mastery of the 72 Arts, Jiumozhi already secured victory. Fighting the monks has become a secundary activity and is not really relevant. The Shaolin Monks realised that A: Jiumozhi's internal power stronger than everyone of them, B: Jiumozhi's level of mastery of the 72 Arts exceeds every Shaolin master and C. no one from Shaolin could defeat Jiumozhi (Xuzhu not included). So what's the use of fighting Jiumozhi? They already know they can't beat him, to engage in battle would only lead to more humiliation, just like you mentioned. Jiumozhi's smart enough to understand this, he was confident enough to challenge Shaolin because he can beat them at their own game. To Shaolin, Jiumozhi's internal power is higher AND everything they know, he know's better... Even if some of them would fight Jiumozhi, the morale would have been so low that their fighting skills would have been seriously influenced.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> A silly analogy: Let's say I'm playing basketball by myself and am just shooting lay-ups, (and miss occasionally, too .) Another guy is on an adjacent court shooting 3's from 35 feet away, and never misses! Certainly, I should be impressed by his skills, or might even feel uncomfortable to perform so badly myself in front of his presence, but I would not feel humiliated in this situation. Even if he makes comments on my (lack of) skills, I might just laugh and keep on playing and pretend nothing had happened. It's only when I'm playing him one-on-one and got beaten 51-4 that I really feel "humiliated" (depends on how seriously I take B-ball. In real life, I don't,) because it's when I'm actually playing against him when a direct comparison is made in front of everyone else's eyes. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Yes, but in this case of Jiumozhi vs Shaolin the analogy should be that you show superior skills in front of the entire team of Washington Wizards! Now you've only have to win a one-on-one with Micheal Jordan!

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> So your point is that being equally impressive in "gentle talking" does not imply stronger "overall" inner power? Ha! I'm now wondering why you're debating w/ me and not Athena... Especially when the inner power that JMZ used, XWXG, should not even be classified as "Orthodox Pure Yang Energy"!! </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    In discussion, I would always try to be as objective as possible, because I feel it is not a matter of winning a discussion but an exchange of views, ideas and knowledge. I would try to provide as much information as possible.

    About Yideng, TIGERWONG pretty much sums up what I'm trying to say:
    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> theres no way to say who is better than the other from this example alone. Although it does say that both of them have at least crossed a very high threshold in terms of inner power that few others have. As evidenced by how impressed other fighters were at this feat. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    While Kenny you think that:
    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> When the 500-pt fighter is using his full force to talk versus the 1000-pt fighter at 10%, the voice coming from the 500-pt fighter would travel further and at the same time gentler. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    My point is that no matter how hard the 500-pt fighter tries, his voice will never be gentle, because he hasn't crossed the threshold of 1000-pt. His voice will definitely travel further, but that's irrelevant. Gentleness is, in my opinion, based on purenes (like in Pure Yang Orthodox Energy). Pureness cannot be measured by points. Yang Guo surely has crossed the threshold, but his energy is still not pure enough to talk as gentle as Yideng. (In the last chapter of ROCH, both Yang Guo and Jueyuan used internal energy to transmit sound, but there was no sign that their voices sounded gentle) But although crossing the threshold does not neccessarily mean you can perform this feat, it is still the basic requirement. Both Yideng and Jiumozhi are &gt;1000, but we don't know what their level really is. Athena likes to believe that they are more or less equals based on the similarity of this feat, and of course Kenny you can say that this might not be correct, but HECK, OF COURSE WE CAN'T KNOW FOR SURE. TigerWong pointed that out quite clearly. Athena likes to see it this way, and I really can't see how your arguments can prove her "wrong", the only thing you're saying is that it just "might not be true".

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> The imprints were made with JY's chains. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    True, but let me put it this way: if Xiao Feng wore chains, could he use his internal energy to make imprints with the chains just by walking, WITHOUT the iron buckets? My point is: the situation of Jueyuan was different than that of Xiao Feng. Duan Yanqing wrote 16 characters on the ground, He Zhudao made a huge chessboard... I do believe that if it was Jueyuan who had to wipe away Duan Yanqing's words, he surely could have done so. But Xiao Feng on the other hand would also have to rely on the weight of the buckets to make imprints with the chains.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> It wasn't GJ who thought that. It was Qiu Chu Ji, who hadn't seen YiDeng for ages and would've no idea how much YD had improved. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    True, but Guo Jing did not disaprove this statement. And although I believe that Fangzheng is surely better than Qiu Chuji, but Jie Feng??? <IMG SRC="smilies/confused.gif" border="0">

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> If someone can prove beyond any doubts that Qiu's opinion was accurate, then I'm willing to believe FZ &gt; YD. But no one can. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Sure. BTW, what's the deal about Gui Xinshu of DOMD?

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> And the situation with SPT was very different from ZWJ. SPT mixed together two things that should never be mixed, but some fancy medicine saved him and he turned out better. In a sense, SPT "learnt" an inner power that had never been learnt by anyone else before. ZWJ had always learnt the same 9Yang that everyone else learnt, he just had some encounters that cut short the learning process (i.e. learning time). But it's still the same 9Yang. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Yes, the Fire & Water Wine did save Shi Potian from dying, but it was Zhan Fei's Iron Palm that eventually made his Yin and Yang energies combine in harmony. In Zhang Wuji's case, Jin Yong did wrote: "This was indeed an extraordinary opportunity which no one has ever encountered, and now with the Qiankun Energy Bag broken, no one ever will get a second chance." I still believe that eventually Zhang Wuji exceeds Jueyuan, but of course there's no proof.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> And this doesn't contradict with the fact that JY already could use his inner power as his heart desired. If he had changed his mind to become a martial arts expert and learn a few techniques, he wouldn't be able to use his 9Yang more effectively in non-combat situations, but he would know what to do in a fight. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I really don't believe that. Some martial artists do not engage in internal cultivation but they still develop internal power through their physical training. So IMO the internal power of a person would definitely be developed through martial arts training. Don't forget that Nine Yang IS a martial art. It's just like how nowadays many people practice Taiji solely as a health exercise. They aim for health but the results will not be satisfying. But those who practice Taiji as a martial art wil not only develop fighting ability, their health would also improve in a way that cannot be acquired through "Health Taiji". Because when practicing martial arts, the internal organs are massaged in a way that cannot be done when you're only meditating. Nine Yang is a martial art, so what better way to practice its' internal power than using it in martial applications? I'm sure that Nine Yang power refined by allround martial arts training will be stronger than Nine Yang power acquired through internal training only.

    OK, now I really quit. BYEBYE!
    對 敵 須 狠 , 斬 草 除 根 , 男 女 老 幼 , 不 留 一 人

  10. #50
    Senior Member TigerWong's Avatar
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    Gentle Talking

    I think we've exhausted this angle. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

    Although people are interpreting the specifics of the Gentle Talking scenarios differently, it seems like everyone agrees that we can't disprove JMZ = YD or whether one fighter is stronger than the other from this example alone. It's up to each individual to decide for themselves how much value to place on this piece of "evidence".

    However, in order to accept something as fact, I think things should make sense from all angles. Or at least have some explanation that is reasonable. IF this Gentle Talking example is enough to make you believe that JMZ = YD, then how would one disprove Kenny's contention that JMZ = KF, KF &gt; the Greats, JMZ &gt; YD. After all, the two contradict each other. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">


    Long Distance Attackers (LDA)

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"A difference is that in this situation, with everything else being equal, we make the assumption that the longer the attack's range, the more advantage it gives to the fighter. With everything else being equal, wouldn't you rather buy a gun that has 100m range, rather than one w/ just 50m? And we also assume the fighters would take advantage of these things as much as possible. For example, if GJ could subdue a weaker fighter from 40 feet away, why didn't he and still decide to fight w/ physical contacts? To say that he can but he just didn't want to isn't a satisfying answer.

    And if HYS could hit long-distance, why would he still need to pick up a rock to flick w/ his finger?

    ...by LDA I meant someone who can actually injure an opponent from as far as 10+ feet away, not merely shoving your opponents a few steps backward from feet away. Trilogy fighters show that they can do the shoving, but no one has been injured from LDA yet." - Kenny
    </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Agreed. This all makes sense.


    Long Distance Shovers (LDS)

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"JMZ is in LDA class, YD is in LDS. The monks in Heaven Dragon Temple were all LDS before learning 6MSJ (just one sword), and I'm not sure if I should classify them as LDA after they learnt 6MSJ. Let's underrate them and called them LDS for now, but that alone should put them in an elite class in Trilogy." - Kenny</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    So you're lumping the Heaven Dragon Temple monks with YD based on the fact that they exhibit the same ability to perform Long Distance Shoving? Isn't this exactly the same type of example that made you so reluctant to accept Athena's Gentle Talking example?

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"In DGSD, JMZ could by himself defeat 5 of those monks from HDTemple. Can a Great defeat 5 fighters from LDS class? I'm not sure if Wong Yung is even strong enough to be in LDS, but even then I'm not sure a Great can defeat 5 WY's at once..." - Kenny</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    A Great can't even defeat 1 fighter from LDS class (YD)! <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"> What does that imply? How can you be sure that all LDS practicioners are within range of each other when you were arguing against using this type of Similiar Feat evidence earlier?


    JMZ, XZ, and LCS

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"The comparison between LCS and XZ would be similar to JMZ-vs-XZ, in my opinion.

    I don't know what to say about LCS-vs-JMZ, since we know very little about LCS. If you try the "breakdown" method that I sometimes use, I think LCS had a bit stronger inner power, is just as aggressive as JMZ. They both have very advanced techniques. Seemed equally talented too... But I think JMZ had more actual combat experience. So it comes down to InnerPower-vs-Experience... You make the final call." - Kenny
    </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    According to this website (also by someone named...Kenny? This wouldn't be yours, would it? <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"> It's pretty cool!):

    http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Temple/5583/Lehuub.html

    LCS had about 70 years of Siu Mo Searn Gung in her, whereas JMZ only had about 20 years of practice. Unless JMZ's experience in fighting dwarfs LCS's almost as much as it exceeds XZ (which I can't imagine), I don't see how it can counter-balance the discrepency enough to make JMZ match up to LCS.


    JY's chains vs. KF

    Personally, I find KF's feat of wiping the ground as if it was sand no less impressive than JY's feat..if not more. He didn't leave a rough impression but he did alter the ground enough to smooth it over. Isn't that pretty much the same thing? Unless you think he somehow sucked up the words so that the ground became level again, which is even more scary.

    Whether or not JY could have utilized 9-Yang to the fullest, the point is that he couldn't do what KF did. And indeed, wasn't it said that NO one (in that era) could do what KF did?

    If you still say that it doesn't mean that ZWJ, who had full 9-Yang with the martial arts training, couldn't do what KF did...then wouldn't that only support the idea that (KF, ZWJ) &gt; (The Greats, JY) since The Greats = JY?

    <font size="1">[ January 02, 2003: Message edited by: TigerWong ]</font>

  11. #51
    Senior Member Goofy's Avatar
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    Cool

    interesting discussions here. <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

    tigerwong, what are your reasons that JMZ = KF?

    I always have impression that JMZ can never hold up against KF or maybe that is from the series. <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

    <font size="1">[ January 02, 2003: Message edited by: Goofy ]</font>
    "History's third dimension is always fiction."
    -- The Glass Bead Game, Hermann Hesse

  12. #52
    Senior Member TigerWong's Avatar
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    Goofy: Having never read the novel, I don't know. JMZ = KF is Kenny's opinion, not mine.

    I'd like to hear the reasons myself! <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

  13. #53

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    *Head spinning from the arguments...* <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">

    JMZ is only slightly worse than Xu Zhu when they faced off (Xu Zhu showed how great he really is very soon afterwards against Ding ChunQiu). Although it is quite obvious that JMZ is not Xu Zhu's level (but then again, who is?), he was, quite plainly, better than Ding ChunQiu and MuRong Fu. Therefore, he could be considered to be in the same class as the 3 brothers (sort of like a lesser among equals kind of thing). Even though he can't beat anyone of the 3 brothers, he would have poses a legitimate threat to them if he fought them one on one. So saying that JMZ is roughly equal to XF is on par with saying that JueYuan is roughly equal to ZWJ (while completely ignoring the fact that ZWJ had a couple of very high end techniques memorized in his mind).
    春花秋月几时了,
    往事知多少?
    小楼昨夜又东风,
    故国不堪回首明月中.
    雕栏玉砌应犹在,
    只是朱颜改.
    问君能有几多愁,
    恰似一江春水向东流.
    --南唐后主,李煜.

  14. #54
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Here's a slight aside from this discussion that might be interesting to consider:

    If Kau Mor Tze really threatened Shaolin Temple's reputation to the point where they had to disband, and Hui Juk had not been present or available to save Shaolin's face, would the JANITOR MONK himself have emerged from obscurity to save face for Shaolin? <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

    Who at Shaolin, besides the Janitor Monk, could have defeated Kau Mor Tze?

  15. #55
    Senior Member Goofy's Avatar
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    Cool

    I don't think janitor monk would for he would have come out long time ago to prevent jmz from practicing 72 arts.

    he kind of left things to follow their course. He probably came out that one time b/c he was tired of sweeping off the litter from the floor. <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">
    "History's third dimension is always fiction."
    -- The Glass Bead Game, Hermann Hesse

  16. #56
    Senior Member mich's Avatar
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    i think the janitor monk came out coz
    they are making too much noise while he is
    ZZZzzzzz....
    <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">
    MooMoo Cows Can Fly.

  17. #57
    Senior Member Athena's Avatar
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    Arrow

    This is my final post, I was only back for the holiday. So I thought I would make my points, ideas, opinions clear again. (Things in which I believe in).

    To Kenny: Tigerwong did a marvellous job summing up my points on "gentle talking" in one of his earlier post on this topic. I CANNOT come up with solid evidence to back-up my story. However your arguments are in my opinion not strong enough either to disproof my assumptions here.

    Furthermore you weren't you the one that said that too many people placed emphasis on the "Deterioration Theory."
    But somehow you argue that the discrepancy between DGSD and LOCH/ROCH fighters is quite large. I (and I do emphasize I in this matter) find it rather a paradox.

    Also about your LDA and LDS categories. I have some real doubts, can we put martial arts experts in boxes, categories like the one you created. I mean I find it rather unreliable.
    So in other words you're putting the "Greats" in the LDS box because we know never saw them perform a LDA action. Is that a correct assumption of me? We can't be sure of that the "Greats" don't know LDA, that's your opinion. I mean the explanation that Guo Jing knew but didn't use it isn't satisfying either for me. But your examples of Huang YaoShi and the 5 monks of Celestial Dragon Temple isn't too convincing either for me.
    Performing LDA depends on the situation of combat. I could argue why didn't Xiao Feng keep his attackers of bay in JuXian Manor.
    You argue that could 5 Huang Rongs couldn't even defeat one "Great." But can one of the 5 monks of the Celestial Dragon Temple (or Ding, abbot XuanCi, Shu XingHe, MuRong Fu, etc.) reach or defeat 6 or 7 Masters of QuanZhen using the Big Dipper Formation. I don't know that, but I feel that they cannot whereas the "Greats" could.
    I agree with Tigerwong on this particular point. No conclusive evidence seen (yet).
    Huang YaoShi using TanZhi ShenTong doesn't necessarily mean that he isn't LDA. Xiao Feng himself never really injured someone with LDA, (with the exception of A Zhu a girl with only low basic martial arts). Ding was pushed away by a accumulation of 3 combined stance energy, MuRong Bo wasn't killed by his stance energy he reflected it although with some pain in his arm and some inside racial curses against Xiao Feng. JiuMo Zhi wasn't injured either by Xiao YuanShan's fist energy he blocked it.

    As for examples concerning reverend JueYuan and Xiao Feng erasing, scraping lines, characters I say nothing about it. I feel that both are different situations and should NOT REALLY be compared. But also JueYuan wasn't allowed to removed the chains and buckets that served as punishment for losing the scriptures. But do we agree that the buckets and chains could be considered an advantage but also a disadvantage.

    Furthermore I know someone who use the following method to differentiate martial arts experts from each other. I rather like this sort categorizing. I like to hear your opinion on this type of categorizing.
    I take DGSD for example.
    the lowest rank should the normal

    *YI LIU GAO SHOU: people like the 4 Imerial Guards of DaLi, the 4 Bodyguards of the MuRong family, the 6 elders of the Beggars Association, Granpa and grandma Tan, ZhaoQianShunLi, etc. (although there are some discrepancies amongst these experts too but not that big).

    *YI DENG YI GAO SHOU/OR ZHAO JUN GAO SHOU: abbot XuanCi, the 30 odd reverends of ShaoLin starting with a Xuan
    character, Shu XingHe, Ding ChunQiu, MuRong Fu, Duan ZhengMing, Duan YanQing, 5 monks of Celestial Dragon Monastery, reverend ShenShan, etc. (again there are some discrepancies but not that big; so one category)

    *JUE DING GAO SHOU: Xiao YuanShan, Xiao Feng, MuRong Bo and JiuMo Zhi.

    *WU DI GAO SHOU: (people practically invincible) Old Nameless Monk, (perhaps even TianShan TongLao, WuYa Zi and Li QiuShui).

    Also I really enjoyed discussing this with you. I'm sorry if I sounded a bit unfriendly in my other post. Could I have your e-mail adress I would love to keep in touch and to exchange ideas on Jin Yong or wuxia.
    Leave my a private message.

    To all the others: I say again: GOODBYE!

    <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

  18. #58
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    i think the reason monk show up is to show all who present the way, the buddhist way. what the monk has done to KF's dad and MYB is so that they forgive and forget each other's mistake, stop all the killings and as they say, seing revenge will not solve the matter. (i translate this one from cantonese) <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">
    I can't write a love song the way I feel today, I can't sing no song of hope, I got nothing to say, Life is feeling kind of strange, since you went away, I sing this song to you wherever you are as my guitar lies bleeding in my arms...

  19. #59
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    TristeCoeur wrote:
    &gt; Kenny, about your argument on JMZ's "gentle talking"....
    &gt; you said he didn't use his full inner power as he wanted
    &gt; to reserve it for fighting the monks later.... as if
    &gt; some gentle talking would make such an expert like JMZ
    &gt; exhasted....

    Not exhausted. But he also wanted to disband Shaolin, and that wouldn't work without tough fights. And in tough fights, every bit of inner power counts. Impressing others through "gentle talking" would certainly earn him more respect, but if it means it would negatively affect him in actual combat in any way later on, regardless of how small an effect, this respect that he gained wouldn't worth the risk.

    &gt; Nah I believe he in fact did show off his
    &gt; inner power to almost the highest level The monks could
    &gt; feel that he was showing off too the moment they heard his
    &gt; voice.

    Just showing off wouldn't be enough for Shaolin to disband.

    &gt; As for JY....9 Yang only teaches you the core ideas of kungfu
    &gt; and the great inner power. It doesn't teach you any kungfu style
    &gt; or how to use them very well. JY's 9 Yang is great to protect
    &gt; himself like when Xiu Xiangzu (can't spell his name) punched
    &gt; him on Huasan peak, but I think he didn't know how to use it to
    &gt; attack others to the fullest extent.

    Yes, he didn't know how to fight. No one is claiming that he could fight. But wiping off lines doesn't require any knowledge in fighting.

    It depends on the tasks. If it's one that requires mostly (or I should say solely) strength, and very little or no skill, such as picking up heavy object with his hands/arms, long-distance running, shouting... No specific training would be required, as long as you know how to utilize your inner power. The only exceptions to those, in my opinion, is when you're required to use fingers, nose, neck, etc., to achieve a task, since in our physiological structures, these body parts are not meant to be used for strenuous tasks. In those cases, specific trainings are required even if you're an expert in using inner power. But for tasks that require mostly strength in our arms, legs, back, etc. but require little skills, a mastery of inner power suffice. And JY had just that.


    &gt; The novel said: he used the inner power of his life and stuff,
    &gt; doesn't mean that he could use the best of it to scrape the chess
    &gt; board, it just means that he used the best he could do.

    Then it directly contradicts with the line that says he could use his inner power as his heart desired.

    &gt; I mean
    &gt; he's more capable than that. If he knew how to use his 9 Yang
    &gt; effectively, he would not die from exhaustion after escaping
    &gt; from Shaolin !

    Can't be proven, unless you can prove that a Great, for example, wouldn't have died in the same situation.

    &gt; All he did was to carry Z3F and GX running about 30 miles away
    &gt; from Shaolin. A master of 9 Yang (like ZWJ for instance) would
    &gt; not die.

    The novel said "several tens of miles", not necessarily 30, and ran at full speed.

    He was also carrying several hundred pounds of weight on his shoulders the whole time. And had just spent much of his energy wiping the chessboard.

    &gt; He would be exhausted only, but wouldn't die

    I too don't think ZWJ would die, but he also had QKDLY. Also, he's probably 40-50 years younger than JY was.

    &gt; I agree with others that XF's wiping off the writings off a
    &gt; normal rock isn't much better (if not just equal to) than
    &gt; JY's scraping the chess board on the rocky ground of Shaolin,
    &gt; made of specially selected rocks from [I don't know the words
    &gt; for it ].

    Both materials were described as qing shi.

    &gt; The depths of the imprints were also different.

    Jin Yong mentioned no depth of the imprints at all. He mentioned only the width. He also mentioned JueYuan was using tools vs XF who wasn't.

    &gt; Jin Yong described that in JY's case far more detailed than
    &gt; in XF's, I don't have time to check the novels right now but
    &gt; it did give me the impression that JY's work was harder.

    That's only because XF performed that task w/ ease, not because the task itself was easier to achieve.

    &gt; Even more so since because XF was a martial art genius, while
    &gt; JY had never learnt MA.

    Again, JY could use his inner power at will. And wiping floor required strength much much more than it required skills. And what else do you think "able to use his inner power as his heart desired" was suppose to mean?

    Laviathan wrote:
    &gt; My point is that by showing his level of internal power AND
    &gt; his mastery of the 72 Arts, Jiumozhi already secured victory.
    &gt; Fighting the monks has become a secundary activity and is not
    &gt; really relevant.

    I disagreed. If all JMZ wanted to achieve was to show that he's stronger than any single Shaolin monk, he might have gotten that from just "gentle talking" or those "circus tricks" (I just called them "circus tricks" to be concise. I know they're much more impressive than simple tricks...)

    But the fact is, he also wanted Shaolin Temple to disband! And that won't do with just impressing others.

    Take a real-world example from recent news: It's no secret that the US wants Saddam to step down. Do you think it's possible only if the US gives Saddam a little tour of the US's own arsenal? Show him a list of nuclear weapons that US itself has? No way. If Saddam was to be taken out (not stating whether US has the rights to make that demand or not), it can only be done by force, (unless Saddam himself also wants to for personal reasons, of course.)

    &gt; The Shaolin Monks realised that A: Jiumozhi's
    &gt; internal power stronger than everyone of them, B: Jiumozhi's
    &gt; level of mastery of the 72 Arts exceeds every Shaolin master
    &gt; and C. no one from Shaolin could defeat Jiumozhi (Xuzhu not
    &gt; included).

    For C: Only true in "fair fights", when they go by the rules...

    &gt; So what's the use of fighting Jiumozhi?

    If someone wants your sect to disband, and is right in front of your face ready to kick you out of your sect, then it's not necessary to go by the rules, for protection of the sect.

    &gt; They already
    &gt; know they can't beat him, to engage in battle would only lead
    &gt; to more humiliation, just like you mentioned. Jiumozhi's smart
    &gt; enough to understand this, he was confident enough to challenge
    &gt; Shaolin because he can beat them at their own game. To Shaolin,
    &gt; Jiumozhi's internal power is higher AND everything they know,
    &gt; he know's better... Even if some of them would fight Jiumozhi,
    &gt; the morale would have been so low that their fighting skills
    &gt; would have been seriously influenced.

    You seem to still think this is enough for Shaolin, the most prestigious sect in the world for centuries, would just disband just because JMZ can gentle talk better. I disagree and found this explanation hardly convincing.

    &gt; Yes, but in this case of Jiumozhi vs Shaolin the analogy should
    &gt; be that you show superior skills in front of the entire team of
    &gt; Washington Wizards! Now you've only have to win a one-on-one with
    &gt; Micheal Jordan!

    Yes, one-on-one, that's a direct comparison! A real-life equivalent to having physical combats in novels. It's definitely more effective in humiliating others than just showing off your skills through "gentle talking", etc.

    But still, humiliating is just humiliating, this alone isn't enough for the entire Washington Wizards team to quit b-ball altogether. This isn't enough for its owner to sell his team and change his career. For that, you need to do more. Similarly, JMZ wanted Shaolin to breakup, and he needed to do more than just showing off his prowess.

    &gt; In discussion, I would always try to be as objective as possible,
    &gt; because I feel it is not a matter of winning a discussion but an
    &gt; exchange of views, ideas and knowledge. I would try to provide as
    &gt; much information as possible.

    Except that what you stated seem to counter Athena's idea rather than mine. You stated that YG couldn't do the gentle talking as well as YD could because YG's wasn't "Orthodox Pure Yang Energy", but yet you agree that JMZ's performance was just as impressive as YD's, dispite the fact that his inner power wasn't "Orthodox Pure Yang Energy". This is why I think you should be arguing w/ Athena, not me... She's the one suggesting YD and JMZ are comparable in inner power.

    &gt; My point is that no matter how hard the 500-pt fighter tries,
    &gt; his voice will never be gentle, because he hasn't crossed the
    &gt; threshold of 1000-pt.

    So you set the threshold at 1000-pt now? I wrote my last post based on the assumption that the threshold is something lower than 500-pt. Note that I wrote something in the line of "assuming both have met all requirements."

    So what if a 1500-pt fighter decides to use 80% of his power, versus a 2000-pt fighter who's using 60% of his strength. You seem to think that the 2000-pt fighter would sound gentler simply because he has more inner power in his reservoir, dispite the fact that he wasn't using it all. This is where I disagree, I believe the amount of inner power the two are actually using to have an effect on the quality of the speeches.

    &gt; His voice will definitely travel further, but that's irrelevant.
    &gt; Gentleness is, in my opinion, based on purenes (like in Pure Yang
    &gt; Orthodox Energy). Pureness cannot be measured by points. Yang Guo
    &gt; surely has crossed the threshold, but his energy is still not pure
    &gt; enough to talk as gentle as Yideng. (In the last chapter of ROCH,
    &gt; both Yang Guo and Jueyuan used internal energy to transmit sound,
    &gt; but there was no sign that their voices sounded gentle) But although
    &gt; crossing the threshold does not neccessarily mean you can perform
    &gt; this feat, it is still the basic requirement.

    Like I said in my last post, my explanation assumes that everyone involved met all requirements for such task. So we shouldn't bring YG into the equation, for YG did not have the right type of inner power for such task.

    &gt; Both Yideng and
    &gt; Jiumozhi are &gt;1000, but we don't know what their level really is.
    &gt; Athena likes to believe that they are more or less equals based on
    &gt; the similarity of this feat, and of course Kenny you can say that
    &gt; this might not be correct, but HECK, OF COURSE WE CAN'T KNOW FOR
    &gt; SURE. TigerWong pointed that out quite clearly. Athena likes to
    &gt; see it this way, and I really can't see how your arguments can prove
    &gt; her "wrong", the only thing you're saying is that it just "might
    &gt; not be true".

    Basically, her point is that something can be logically concluded from that comparison, and my disagreement is that nothing can be logically concluded from it, just like we cannot solve 2 equations w/ 4 unknown.

    &gt; True, but let me put it this way: if Xiao Feng wore chains, could
    &gt; he use his internal energy to make imprints with the chains just
    &gt; by walking, WITHOUT the iron buckets?

    Maybe he can, maybe he can't. But that's beside the point. The point is JY couldn't achieve something XF could, with or without the accessories.

    &gt; My point is: the situation of Jueyuan was different than that of
    &gt; Xiao Feng.

    The two tasks has one common ultimate goal: To erase something another person has written on a stone surface.

    XF erased it w/ no tools. JY couldn't erase it if he didn't have tools.

    &gt; Duan Yanqing wrote 16 characters on the ground, He
    &gt; Zhudao made a huge chessboard...

    Nah, the novel did not explicitly stated how large the Go board was, but anything near 4-sq-ft should be enough to be considered large.

    Neither was it stated how large each word was. But DYQ was using his walking-stick to write those words, and I would assume the walking-stick was roughly 1-inch wide in diameter, which means I think each stroke of each word is roughly one inch wide. Add 16 words together, I'd say it's at least comparable to the Go-board in size.

    &gt; I do believe that if it was Jueyuan who had to wipe away
    &gt; Duan Yanqing's words, he surely could have done so. But
    &gt; Xiao Feng on the other hand would also have to rely on the
    &gt; weight of the buckets to make imprints with the chains.

    If it's just your personal opinion, that's fine. But it isn't objective.

    &gt; True, but Guo Jing did not disaprove this statement.

    I actually had a debate over this issue in '97. The statement from Qiu was that YD *probably* can't write words on wood, writing on stone is definitely impossible. He did not state that YD couldn't write on wood.

    Also, when Qiu was talking to GJ, he was telling him about the history of the Ancient Tomb sect, and the story between its founder and his teacher. It wasn't a topic about what the Greats could achieve w/ their power. So in a sense, it's an off-topic issue. GJ, given his personality and his respect towards his elders, would not interrupt Qiu over such minor, off-topic issue, even if he disagree. He's also probably too mentally slow to defect a flaw in Qiu.

    Also, like I said before, Qiu hadn't met YD for decades. If I remember correctly, Qiu wasn't even there during the 1st Tournament at Mt. Hua, and they definitely never saw each other since then. So that makes the last time Qiu met YD to be at least 35, 40 years before the time Qiu was explaining to GJ. In 35 years, a fighter can improve quite a bit.

    &gt; And
    &gt; although I believe that Fangzheng is surely better than
    &gt; Qiu Chuji, but Jie Feng???

    Like I said, if I'm presented clear evidence, why not? But we have no clear evidence, so I don't think about it much.

    &gt; Sure. BTW, what's the deal about Gui Xinshu of DOMD?

    ... that little joke I played with dgkb?

    &gt; Yes, the Fire & Water Wine did save Shi Potian from dying,
    &gt; but it was Zhan Fei's Iron Palm that eventually made
    &gt; his Yin and Yang energies combine in harmony. In Zhang
    &gt; Wuji's case, Jin Yong did wrote: "This was indeed an
    &gt; extraordinary opportunity which no one has ever encountered,
    &gt; and now with the Qiankun Energy Bag broken, no one ever will
    &gt; get a second chance." I still believe that eventually Zhang
    &gt; Wuji exceeds Jueyuan, but of course there's no proof.

    "An extraordinary opportunity" to finish his learning of 9Yang in such a short time. But in the end it's still 9Yang, the same 9Yang everyone else learned.

    &gt; I really don't believe that. Some martial artists do not
    &gt; engage in internal cultivation but they still develop internal
    &gt; power through their physical training. So IMO the internal power
    &gt; of a person would definitely be developed through martial arts
    &gt; training.

    True. For example, YG improved his inner power through physical training. But that's a very different of inner power, with very different method of training, and that's not 9Yang. To compare them is like comparing apples and oranges. 9Yang is one of those that is learnt and improved from internal cultivation.

    &gt; I'm sure that Nine
    &gt; Yang power refined by allround martial arts training will be
    &gt; stronger than Nine Yang power acquired through internal training
    &gt; only.

    I do not dispute that if JY had learnt other techniques or had other inner power trainings, his overall inner power would improve, (as in an increase in amount.) I never said that it wouldn't. I said his utilization of his 9Yang inner power in most non-combative situations (situations where strength is much more important than skill) was as effective as it could be, that learning a palm-type skill, for example, would not have helped him other than in combative situations, (or any other task that requires skill as much as or even more than strength.)

  20. #60
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    Post

    Hmm... it seems that this forum doesn't like long posts... so I have to cut it in halves.

    TigerWong wrote:
    &gt; Although people are interpreting the specifics of the Gentle
    &gt; Talking scenarios differently, it seems like everyone
    &gt; agrees that we can't disprove JMZ = YD or whether one fighter
    &gt; is stronger than the other from this example alone.

    Agreed.

    But allow me to make a small correction that this example was originally brought up to prove JMZ = YD, or at least they're roughly equal, not to disprove JMZ = YD, and my whole point is that it just can't be used to prove anything at all.

    &gt; So you're lumping the Heaven Dragon Temple monks with YD based
    &gt; on the fact that they exhibit the same ability to perform Long
    &gt; Distance Shoving?

    No, not at all. I'm saying that everyone in LDA, even the weakest in that class, is stronger than everyone in LDS. In turn, everyone in LDS is stronger than every conventional fighter. And for this discussion, I consider the monks in HDTemple to be in LDS, dispite having learnt one of the 6 swords. Exactly how close it is between anyone of those monks and YD depends on how wide the range of this class is, and I never made any assumption regarding the range of this group.

    Remember, at the time, you were asking me about JMZ vs. YD, not the monks vs. YD. And my main argument was that JMZ was able to defeat 5 fighters from the LDS class at the same time, but I don't believe anyone of the Greats (themselves in LDS) could defeat even 5 weakest fighters in LDS at once. (I said I'm not sure if Wong Yung was strong enough to be in LDS, and I don't think YD can defeat 5 WY's.)

    Also, another way to look at JMZ-vs-Great was through the XF-vs-JY issue.

    As for the monks in HDTemple (6M for short from now on) vs Greats, that's a whole other issue. I did say the following before: There is no concrete evidence to suggest either 6M &gt; YD or YD &gt; 6M. Both sides seem to be equally impressive, with both sides having attempted to attack from a fairly long distance away but, of course, causing no damage to their opponents. Also, for those of us who believe that the Greats are weaker than XF, et al, we see that the next best group of fighter after XF et al, would be these 6M, a few from Shaolin, Ding Chun Chau, etc., (these fighters are roughly equal and should be in the same class). Since to us, the Greats aren't comparable to XF et al, and there's no clear evidence to suggest either 6M &gt; Greats or Greats &gt; 6M, it's natural to assume that the class of 6M is roughly equal to the Greats. (By roughly equal, I don't mean that they are actually equal. I mean that they're so close that if they're to fight each other, whoever loses would lose respectably, like, lasting a whole day before losing.)

    This is like a concept in statistical analysis. In statistics, sometimes we make an assumption called the null hypothesis (H_0), and for each H_0 there is an alternative hypotheis (H_a), which is the complement of H_0. If we have data, statistical tests are performed, and if we have reason to believe that H_0 is false, we reject it in favor of H_a. Otherwise, we claim that we fail to reject H_0 (doesn't mean it's true, it's just that we have no reason to believe it's false. Comparing Greats and 6M is just like a hypothesis testing with H_0 being: Great = 6M, of course, it sounds a bit dumb to think of it as a statistical testing because we don't really have any "data" to work with. The only thing we have is observations of the events from the book. But I believe the general concept is still valid.

    &gt; Isn't this exactly the same type of example
    &gt; that made you so reluctant to accept Athena's Gentle Talking
    &gt; example?

    Not exactly. Especially when the H_0 in this case is JMZ = YD, and we might have other reasons to reject it.

    &gt; A Great can't even defeat 1 fighter from LDS class (YD)!
    &gt; What does that imply? How can you be sure that all
    &gt; LDS practicioners are within range of each other when you
    &gt; were arguing against using this type of Similiar Feat
    &gt; evidence earlier?

    Perhaps YD is at the top of LDS, so that's why he can't be defeated by other Greats (who themselves are in LDS). But JMZ defeated 5 in LDS when fighting them simultaneously. Can YD defeat 5 weakest LDS? Questionable.

    Again, couple it with the XF-vs-JY comparison. Also, JMZ in the novel showed that he himself is in LDA. I think together these pieces of evidence look pretty strong.

    &gt; According to this website:

    It's mine! <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"> I remember you actually sent me an email, and told me about the JY forum. What you didn't know is that I actually was like the 2nd or 3rd person ever to post there... I was just in the middle of a 1-yr break from posting when you emailed me. Moin, too, also emailed me about something (forgot what it is now...) before we met each other in the JY forum.

    I've said it many times before that it's done some 4, 5 years ago, and some of my opinions I expressed there have changed since then... mostly minor things, though.

    &gt; LCS had about 70 years of Siu Mo Searn Gung in her,
    &gt; whereas JMZ only had about 20 years of practice. Unless
    &gt; JMZ's experience in fighting dwarfs LCS's almost as much
    &gt; as it exceeds XZ (which I can't imagine), I don't see
    &gt; how it can counter-balance the discrepency enough to make
    &gt; JMZ match up to LCS.

    Because other than SMSG, JMZ should also have other types of inner power in him.

    &gt; Personally, I find KF's feat of wiping the ground as if it
    &gt; was sand no less impressive than JY's feat..if not more. He
    &gt; didn't leave a rough impression but he did alter the ground
    &gt; enough to smooth it over. Isn't that pretty much the same
    &gt; thing?

    Right! In terms of what was done to the floor, what XF did was at least as impressive as what JY did. The difference is now that XF clearly wasn't using any tool doing it, while the novel explicitly stated that JY couldn't do it with tools.

    Some argued that JY couldn't use his inner power as effectively as XF, but then, they seemed to have forgotten that if JY didn't know how to use his inner power, he was nevertheless able to impress the Greats to make himself comparable to them. So does that mean he could all of a sudden know how to use his inner power when he was impressing the Greats, just to fall back down on earth after that scene? I smell some double standard... <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

    &gt; Unless you think he somehow sucked up the words so
    &gt; that the ground became level again, which is even more scary.

    Of course, that's not how it happened. And yes, that's scary.

    &gt; Whether or not JY could have utilized 9-Yang to the fullest,
    &gt; the point is that he couldn't do what KF did. And indeed,
    &gt; wasn't it said that NO one (in that era) could do what KF did?

    He couldn't do what KF did while at the same time was comparable to the Greats.

    &gt; If you still say that it doesn't mean that ZWJ, who had full
    &gt; 9-Yang with the martial arts training, couldn't do what
    &gt; KF did...then wouldn't that only support the idea that (KF, ZWJ) &gt;
    &gt; (The Greats, JY) since The Greats = JY?

    Hmm? Don't really quite get what you mean here...

    Overall, in terms of inner power, I consider KF &gt; JY ~= Greats ~= ZWJ.

    ~= means roughly equal.

    Argh... up to this point, I've already spent an afternoon writing this post... still a long way to go... Now you know why I don't decide to stay posting for long...

    Goofy wrote:
    &gt; what are your reasons that JMZ = KF

    In DGSD, most readers (almost everyone, me included) believe that KF, his father, and MRB were in the same class, (at least in terms of "on-paper" skills.) I won't supply more details to support that now, too tired to write. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

    Anyway, in the novel, JMZ never fought MRB, and never fought XF, but he could beat up other strong fighters (but weaker than them) as easily as XF or MRB could. We can only make direct comparison between XF's father and JMZ from one scene in the novel. In that scene, XYS tried to attack MRB, and JMZ jumped in front of MRB and blocked the attack. The novel stated that the attack and the counter were equally strong, and the two fighters had mutual respect for each other afterward. I know that it's just one punch, but with no other evidence to suggest one being stronger than the other, this is the only objective evidence we can go by.

    Ken Cheng wrote:
    &gt;Here's a slight aside from this discussion that might be
    &gt; interesting to consider:
    &gt;
    &gt; If Kau Mor Tze really threatened Shaolin Temple's reputation
    &gt; to the point where they had to disband, and Hui Juk had not
    &gt; been present or available to save Shaolin's face, would the
    &gt; JANITOR MONK himself have emerged from obscurity to save face
    &gt; for Shaolin?
    &gt;
    &gt; Who at Shaolin, besides the Janitor Monk, could have defeated
    &gt; Kau Mor Tze?

    No one, but no one knew of his existence. No one knew about HJ's existence (as a powerful fighter) either.

    So Ken, in your opinion, assuming there's no HJ or the Janitor Monk, (since no one knew about them,) do you think the Shaolin, the leader of all sects, would just pack their stuff and go home and disband w/o tough battles just because someone can gentle talk or perform several nice tricks in from of them?

    Athena wrote:
    &gt; Furthermore you weren't you the one that said that too many
    &gt; people placed emphasis on the "Deterioration Theory."
    &gt; But somehow you argue that the discrepancy between DGSD and
    &gt; LOCH/ROCH fighters is quite large. I (and I do emphasize I
    &gt; in this matter) find it rather a paradox.

    No, I meant people follow the ToD blindly, that they believe the ToD can be used to compare any two specific fighters from any two era. I stated that ToD can only be used in comparisons of two eras as a whole, but when we're comparing two specific fighters, we need specific evidence. For example, JMZ=XF&gt;JY=Greats, or JMZ-vs-5LDS compared to Great-vs-5WeakLDS.

    And I do think the difference in strength between the two novels is large. I believe the Janitor Monk, the Three Elders, the Three Sworn Brothers, the Three Old Fighters (JMZ, XYS, and MRB) to be stronger than the Greats. If the Greats (best of RoCH) could only rank 11-15 in DGSD, I think the difference is pretty big.

    &gt; Performing LDA depends on the situation of combat.

    True. But with all the different situations the Greats had been faced with, there must be at least some in which choosing to use LDA is the optimal strategy. But the fact is they've never shown that ability even if such situations occured.

    I for one would think that whenever HYS felt the urge to bend down and pick up a little rock to flick it away, it would've been an appropriate time to use LDA, if he could perform such task.

    &gt; I could argue why didn't Xiao Feng keep his attackers of bay
    &gt; in JuXian Manor.

    He did use it. Of course, since he was surrounded by 200, 300 good fighters, it was only a matter of time that eventually he would have to fight w/ physical contacts.

    &gt; You argue that could 5 Huang Rongs couldn't even defeat one "Great."

    No, I argued that I don't believe one Great can defeat 5 HRs. And I'm not sure HR qualified to evn be in LDS.

    &gt; But can one of the 5 monks of the Celestial Dragon Temple
    &gt; (or Ding, abbot XuanCi, Shu XingHe, MuRong Fu, etc.) reach
    &gt; or defeat 6 or 7 Masters of QuanZhen using the Big Dipper
    &gt; Formation. I don't know that, but I feel that they cannot
    &gt; whereas the "Greats" could.

    I don't know that either. But when I don't know about something, my natural response is "maybe they can, maybe they can't" and look for further evidence to suggest one way or another, if evidence exist at all.

    Also, East Wicked defeated the formation only after one of the Taoists had died, and his replacement was too weak.

    &gt; Xiao Feng himself never really injured someone with LDA

    Not true. See the scene in JuXian Manor against the 4th Evil. XF was in the middle of the room, surrounded by 200, 300 fighters, the 4th Evil was about to get away on the edge of the room, and none of the other fighter present was able to hit him with the darts they threw because of the 4th Evil's speed. XF then threw a palm from the middle of the room, critically injuring him.

    &gt; Ding was pushed away by a accumulation of 3 combined stance energy

    But Ding said if he didn't jump away AND raise both of his arms to block the attacks, the attacks would certainly broke his arm! That didn't happen, of course, because he was able to jumped backward and dodge it, but we know what would happen had he not jumped. So we know XF was also strong enough to injure the likes of Ding.

    The fact that it was an accumulation of 3 attacks is somewhat irrevelent, since it was nevertheless a form of LDA. Also, he was over a hundred feet away from Ding, much longer than the "humanly possible" range of 50 feet (as Jin Yong wrote). The combined attacks just canceled out XF's disadvantage of standing too far away.

    &gt; MuRong Bo wasn't killed by his stance energy he reflected
    &gt; it although with some pain in his arm and some inside racial
    &gt; curses against Xiao Feng.

    True, and, despite the attack was only LD, he seemed to have received more pain than West Poison and North Beggar received from each other when they blocked each other's attack from close distance.

    &gt; JiuMo Zhi wasn't injured either
    &gt; by Xiao YuanShan's fist energy he blocked it.

    Of course, that's why I consider them to be equal.

    &gt; But also JueYuan wasn't allowed to removed the chains and
    &gt; buckets that served as punishment for losing the scriptures.

    When the novel said he couldn't achieve that without the chains and buckets, it's a statement made about his ability. Whether or not he was allowed to actually take them off is irrelevent.

    &gt; But
    &gt; do we agree that the buckets and chains could be considered an
    &gt; advantage but also a disadvantage.

    The way the novel sounds, they only serve as an advantage.

    &gt; I like to hear your opinion on this type of categorizing.

    Okay <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"> I'll make some comments... I hope I don't sound too nitpicky...

    &gt; *YI LIU GAO SHOU: people like the 4 Imerial Guards of DaLi,
    &gt; the 4 Bodyguards of the MuRong family, the 6 elders of the
    &gt; Beggars Association, Granpa and grandma Tan, ZhaoQianShunLi,
    &gt; etc. (although there are some discrepancies amongst these
    &gt; experts too but not that big).

    It really depends on how big you want the class to be...

    The 4 Guards, for example, it took two or three of them to defeat one Lower Evil, making them look weaker than the rest.

    ZQSL was one of the participants in XYS's ambush, so he actually was one of the stronger fighters of the past generation. And Granpa/Grandma were in the same class as he. So these three were probably noticeably stronger than the rest in this group.

    But still, like I said, if the range of this class is "wide" enough, it still makes sense to include them all in this group, since I think that even the strongest in this group seemed to be weaker than those in the next group. (Only that you also have to include many more fighters if you want it to be complete...)

    &gt; *YI DENG YI GAO SHOU/OR ZHAO JUN GAO SHOU: abbot XuanCi,
    &gt; the 30 odd reverends of ShaoLin starting with a Xuan
    &gt; character, Shu XingHe, Ding ChunQiu, MuRong Fu, Duan
    &gt; ZhengMing, Duan YanQing, 5 monks of Celestial Dragon
    &gt; Monastery, reverend ShenShan, etc. (again there are some
    &gt; discrepancies but not that big; so one category)

    Agreed. And I'd like to add that the IronHead also deserves a place here.

    &gt; *JUE DING GAO SHOU: Xiao YuanShan, Xiao Feng, MuRong Bo
    &gt; and JiuMo Zhi.

    If you assume that Duan Yu had at least developed some effectiveness in using his kungfu, he should at least belong here. Of course, if you don't make that assumption, it makes sense to take him out altogether.

    XZ should also at least belong here.

    &gt; *WU DI GAO SHOU: (people practically invincible) Old
    &gt; Nameless Monk, (perhaps even TianShan TongLao, WuYa Zi
    &gt; and Li QiuShui).

    When I was a "newbie" JY fan, I used to think that the Three Elders were truly in a class by themselves, below the God-like Janitor Monk, but above the likes of XF and his father, etc. But after discussing over it w/ others on the 'net, I now consider them to be in the same class as XF's. This is probably the biggest change in opinion I have due to 'net discussion, (and probably the only major change...)

    &gt; Also I really enjoyed discussing this with you. I'm sorry
    &gt; if I sounded a bit unfriendly in my other post.

    Well, to tell you the truth, I'm used to it... <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

    And a lot of times, it's my tone that caused all this misunderstanding, as in this case...

    So I guess I also have to apologize for all these troubles. And I hope I didn't offend you in any way.

    &gt; Could I have
    &gt; your e-mail adress I would love to keep in touch and to
    &gt; exchange ideas on Jin Yong or wuxia. Leave my a private
    &gt; message.

    Sure! <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

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