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Thread: Martial arts comparison between DGSD era and LOCH/ROCH era

  1. #61
    Senior Member Goofy's Avatar
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    Cool

    just ot here but in the novel, how was DY's liu mai at the end?

    In dgsd97, it seemed conclusive that he finally mastered the art.

    kenny,
    I don't mind reading long posts here but long threads at jy forum are a bit tiresome mainly b/c of the format.

    <font size="1">[ January 03, 2003: Message edited by: Goofy ]</font>
    "History's third dimension is always fiction."
    -- The Glass Bead Game, Hermann Hesse

  2. #62
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">Originally posted by Kenny:
    So Ken, in your opinion, assuming there's no HJ or the Janitor Monk, (since no one knew about them,) do you think the Shaolin, the leader of all sects, would just pack their stuff and go home and disband w/o tough battles just because someone can gentle talk or perform several nice tricks in from of them?[/QB]</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    No. I don't think the Shaolin monks would just capitulate, but Kau Mor Tze did have them in a humiliating pickle of a situation that they couldn't have gotten out of with their pride intact unless Hui Juk or the Janitor Monk intervened. They wouldn't close shop, but so much for their vaunted reputation in the martial world after that visit by Kau Mor Tze.

  3. #63
    Senior Member Charlieboy's Avatar
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    Hi there, just in need of some clarification, how accurate is the translated quote from Laviathan and WHO states the information, because if it is Jin Yong himself rather than through a character, wouldn't it suggest that without the aid of tools, NO person in JY world can perform such a feat?

    Lav wrote;

    About Jueyuan: Jin Yong wrote that "no matter how strong one's inner power is, it's impossible to leave IMPRINTS on a stone ground by stepping on it."

    Another thing I found unusual is this statement from TigerWong.

    TigerWong wrote;

    Whether or not JY could have utilized 9-Yang to the fullest, the point is that he couldn't do what KF did. And indeed, wasn't it said that NO one (in that era) could do what KF did?

    So was 'it said that NO one (in that era) could do what KF did?' and if so, again, who said this? It doesn't seem to be a reliable source, whoever said this IMO because that would be discounting the likes of Janitor Monk, Tong Lao, LCS, XYS, QMJ, HJ...

    KENNY-your equations are smoking my brain out!!! Anyway, learning a lot from the effort you guys are putting in
    <IMG SRC="smilies/bow.gif" border="0">

  4. #64
    Senior Member TigerWong's Avatar
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    Charlieboy: The key part is "in that era". The people from DGSD are not in that era. But I was just bringing up something Kenny mentioned earlier, a statement nobody seems to be countering so far...

  5. #65
    Senior Member TristeCoeur's Avatar
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    WOW you guys surely like loooooooong posts <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">

    Kenny, you keep saying that JMZ wanted Shaolin to disband.......surely he wanted so, but he didn't go there to disband Shaolin. One man, no matter how strong he is, cannot disband Shaolin. JMZ wasn't stupid enough to fight the whole Shaolin ! <IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0"> His plan was to humiliate them. When he arrived, there were many high ranked martial artists (most of them were abbots). It was a great chance for him to show off his skills, then defeat a few of the best Shaolin monks -&gt; humiliate Shaolin. After that, they wouldn't be able to keep their heads up in wulin. That's his goal. You can't use force to disband such a big organisation. You use tricks to let them do it themselves.
    • Discussion: the confusion of one person multiplied by the number present.
    • Discussion Forum: the place where everybody posts, nobody reads and everybody disagrees later on.

  6. #66
    Senior Member TigerWong's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"But allow me to make a small correction that this example was originally brought up to prove JMZ = YD, or at least they're roughly equal, not to disprove JMZ = YD, and my whole point is that it just can't be used to prove anything at all." - Kenny</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Sure. I meant that it was generally agreed that no one could prove conclusively whether (JMZ = YD, JMZ &gt; YD, JMZ &lt; YD) from this example alone.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"I'm saying that everyone in LDA, even the weakest in that class, is stronger than everyone in LDS. In turn, everyone in LDS is stronger than every conventional fighter." - Kenny</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Hmmm...I'm starting to wonder if this statement is necessarily true.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"And for this discussion, I consider the monks in HDTemple to be in LDS, dispite having learnt one of the 6 swords." - Kenny</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I understand your reasoning for making this contention because you wanted to stress a point, but technically they are LDA because of 6MSJ, right? Or at the very least, top of the LDS class, if I am to follow your reasoning.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"Remember, at the time, you were asking me about JMZ vs. YD, not the monks vs. YD." - Kenny</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I actually agree with your outlook on JMZ vs. YD. I just brought up the issue because you were arguing that Athena's use of the Gentle-Talking Ability to classify fighters was unreliable by itself. But it seems like you are using the LDS Ability to classify fighters.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"There is no concrete evidence to suggest either 6M &gt; YD or YD &gt; 6M. Both sides seem to be equally impressive, with both sides having attempted to attack from a fairly long distance away but, of course, causing no damage to their opponents." - Kenny</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    By saying "equally impressive", do you mean "equally matched"? JMZ's and YD's Gentle Talking are also equally impressive.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"the Greats aren't comparable to XF et al, and there's no clear evidence to suggest either 6M &gt; Greats or Greats &gt; 6M, it's natural to assume that the class of 6M is roughly equal to the Greats." - Kenny</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Not necessarily... Because evidence doesn't exist to say whether 6M &gt; Greats or Greats &gt; 6M, one can't conclude that they're the same. Just that theres no conclusion. Theres no evidence to suggest that I'm smarter than my next door neighbor, doesn't mean we're equally smart.

    But I think you meant to say that there is nothing to disprove your contention that 6M = The Greats. And from what I'm reading, that contention is based on the Ability to perform LDS.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"Perhaps YD is at the top of LDS, so that's why he can't be defeated by other Greats (who themselves are in LDS)." - Kenny</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I think this is why the whole LDS thing is starting to nag at me. Why are the other Greats "in LDS"? Wong Yeark See needs to flick tangible objects to stun. And I'm not sure if H7G can do any of this.

    Of course, you are basing it by Association. There are plenty of other evidence to suggest that H7G = YD, and YD = 6M (according to LDS), so therefore H7G = 6M. I'm questioning YD = 6M.

    Your contention was that LDS &gt; conventional. Is the criteria for being in LDS being able to perform this ability or not? If H7G can't do LDS then he is conventional. (Just like if 6M knows 6MSJ, then they're LDA) And this contradicts LDS &gt; conventinoal because YD = H7G. We shouldn't be changing definitions for different parts of the discussion.

    I guess my point is this: Can we instead look at LDS as a unique Ability that comes with a certain type of training and not as something that is automatically acquired after reaching a certain threshold of inner power? If it is not automatically acquired, which obviously it's not, then can we really use it as a gauge of power? (at least not by itself) Can we not say that one just didn't happen to learn it? Just like YG didn't learn how to Gentle Talk like YD? Or that DFBB didn't learn how to drain energy like Yum Ngor Han? Obviously, nobody believes YG is weaker than YD or that DFBB is weaker than YNH just because they couldn't duplicate an Ability.

    My hypothesis is that it does take a certain threshold of inner power to perform certain Abilities, but that it may also require other factors like "orthodox inner power" or special training. Not being able to use this Ability doesn't mean that the person hasn't crossed that threshold. Basically, I'm looking at LDS as something more like Gentle Talking rather than something like rubbing out characters on stone.

    Or to view it another way. The 6M are LDA because 6MSJ gives you the ability to harm others. It's just that JMZ was too strong. But if you take a weaker fighter, the 6M would have hurt them. The strength of the opponent plays a factor. Thus, is the LDA "label" by itself reason enough to begin grouping fighters together? Obviously, JMZ is in a class above the 6M.

    I accept that KF &gt; The Greats because there are many other reasons that KF cannot be below the Greats in strength. So coupled with LDA, it gives him the edge in combat.

    I'm not sold on all this yet...just throwing it out for discussion.

    <font size="1">[ January 04, 2003: Message edited by: TigerWong ]</font>

  7. #67
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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">Originally posted by TristeCoeur:
    <STRONG>WOW you guys surely like loooooooong posts <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">

    Kenny, you keep saying that JMZ wanted Shaolin to disband.......surely he wanted so, but he didn't go there to disband Shaolin. One man, no matter how strong he is, cannot disband Shaolin. JMZ wasn't stupid enough to fight the whole Shaolin ! <IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0"> His plan was to humiliate them. When he arrived, there were many high ranked martial artists (most of them were abbots). It was a great chance for him to show off his skills, then defeat a few of the best Shaolin monks -&gt; humiliate Shaolin. After that, they wouldn't be able to keep their heads up in wulin. That's his goal. You can't use force to disband such a big organisation. You use tricks to let them do it themselves.</STRONG></font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Hmmm.. analogy, I go to a basketball court intent on humiliating some players with my amazing "And-1" tricks. there is lots of players on the court, perfect for me to make an example. I dribble around showing my amazing skills of crossovers and layups(getting a little tired in the process). The players on the court are amazed at my handling skill, but as human nature ego is as big as the sun, they still are not completely convinced that i am capable of beating them. A tall guy with an iverson jersey calls me out, we head to a 1 v 1 even though he is talented i defeat him easy. Another guy jumps in he is a bit shorter but speed is amazing! I also defeat him. Now i am exhausted. A kid comes to challenge me, his skill is average at best, and is shorter then both guys i have played with. But now i am exhausted and watch as he does layups and layups over me. Even though i am sure of my ability to beat him my body can only go so far. therefore i lose the game, Humiliation. I do not dare enter that court again

    My point is that it's human nature, we do not believe something until we see it with our own two eyes. Even if you can play basketball as good as Yao Ming or Michael Jordan when you get exhausted even average player can show you a good whooping. Same point applied to JY, he had abundant Inner Strength but exhaustion defeated him. It's like before a game, Coaches don't have their best players run laps and stay up late.

    The best way for JMZ to truly humiliate Shaolin was to beat their top fighters(not the whole shaolin that would be absurd.) but even though he was confident he can defeat the top Shaolin fighters, surely he will take precautions. A single fighter like himself that goes boldly to challenge Shaolin, One of the top sect(if not the top!) in the Wuxia world would have expected hard fights, and by exerting his Inner Strenght by "gentle-talking" isn't gonna help him win the battles.

    JMZ was on Shaolin to DEFEAT/HUMILIATE Shaolin not amaze them with petty gimmicks like "Genty Talking". How does that humiliate Shaolin? If someone display their abilities in front of me i would only congratulate and compliment them, until they USE it and defeat me with it.

    And if i am not mistaken didn't he go on up to Shaolin to erradicate the whole Shaolin Sect? If true then all the more reason to conserve his Inner Strength.

    <font size="1">[ January 03, 2003: Message edited by: KieuFeng ]</font>

  8. #68
    Senior Member TigerWong's Avatar
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    I needed to break this post up too. Too many long posts! But so much to say... Oh well, just gets me one step closer to getting a custom Avatar. <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"It's mine! I remember you actually sent me an email, and told me about the JY forum." - Kenny</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Yep. And you never deigned to replied! *humph* How arrogant!! <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">

    I forgot what I wrote but it was probably all based on the TV serials. Man, I never realized how much misinformation there are in those...

    But I LOVE the way you made those characters. Did you do the art yourself? I especially liked how you had little Duen Yue scamper across the screen using his Ling Bong Mai Bo! I've always wanted to do a wuxia fighting RPG game. And even though my job is making video games, I don't think I'll get a chance to make a wuxia one. Not unless I start my own company. We lowly programmers don't have a lot of pull at large companies when it comes to design. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

    You should continue updating that site. I wanna see Top 10 lists and drawings of characters from Ode to Gallantry!

    Speaking of which, people have brought the point up that Shi Por Tien is stronger than the Greats, and yet no one says a word. I'm already blown away by your descriptions of KF's feats, and people still argue against KF &gt; Greats. What the heck has Shi Por Tien done that makes people shut up? It also seems like there are a LOT of powerful characters in Ode to Gallantry. Where does that all fit within the Deterioration Theory?

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"Because other than SMSG, JMZ should also have other types of inner power in him." - Kenny</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Then this quote from your site - "JMZ has only about 20 years of experience in practicing SMSG... LCS has about 70 years of SMSG in her, so it is reasonable to assume that she is at least three times stronger than JMZ" is a bit misleading.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"Hmm? Don't really quite get what you mean here..." - Kenny</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    What I meant was this. If one believes that JY = Greats. And one believes that CWJ could have done what KF did because he knew how to utilize 9-Yang. Then it just shows that CWJ &gt; Greats and doesn't bring KF down to the Greats' level. I'm not directing this statement at anyone in particular. Just rambling...


    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"Overall, in terms of inner power, I consider KF &gt; JY ~= Greats ~= ZWJ." - Kenny</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I'm starting to look at it like this: KF &gt; Greats ~= ZWJ &gt; JY. Although JY has the same amount of inner power as the Greats, we're talking about who would win in a fight. And that takes into account all the other factors you mentioned: experience, mentality, etc.

    So ZWJ = Greats = JY in inner power. But ZWJ and the Greats have fighting experience and other techniques in addition to this, so that should allow them to defeat JY in battle.

    Otherwise, JMZ ~= XZ doesn't make sense.

    <font size="1">[ January 03, 2003: Message edited by: TigerWong ]</font>

  9. #69
    Senior Member TigerWong's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"To Kenny: Tigerwong did a marvellous job summing up my points on "gentle talking" in one of his earlier post on this topic. I CANNOT come up with solid evidence to back-up my story. However your arguments are in my opinion not strong enough either to disproof my assumptions here." - Athena</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Although I agree that just the Gentle Talking can't prove anything conclusive, I find myself more inclined to assume that JMZ &gt; YD. Mainly because of Kenny's contention that JMZ = KF, KF &gt; Greats, thus JMZ &gt; YD. So far, I haven't heard any convincing arguments to disprove either JMZ = KF or KF &gt; Greats (although the current KF vs. JY discussion is addressing the 2nd part)

    One cannot just conveniently ignore this.

    If I buy that JMZ &gt; YD, I can explain away the Gentle Talking because it doesn't disprove JMZ &gt; YD. But if I buy that JMZ = YD, I need to deal with/explain/counter/etc. (JMZ = KF, KF &gt; Greats -&gt; JMZ &gt; YD) in some manner, because it does contradict JMZ = YD.

    Of course, it's only my personal feeling that I have yet to hear a convincing argument against it. Others may already buy the idea that KF is not greater than the Greats because KF is not greater than JY...

    BTW - Hope you're having a great time on your hiatus, or whatever you're doing. Nice to see ya around again, even if for a little while. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

    <font size="1">[ January 04, 2003: Message edited by: TigerWong ]</font>

  10. #70
    Senior Member Charlieboy's Avatar
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    TigerWong, sorry to distract you from the main discussion here, but the quote I mentioned says no one in that era could do what KF did - am I misinterpreting it because I get the impression that this means what Kieu Fung did(wipe the words off the stone ground) NO ONE of the DGSD era could do <IMG SRC="smilies/confused.gif" border="0">

    Anyways I think you guys should bring up some more contentious issues like this post of Athena's so LAV has no choice but to Chung Chut Gong Wu <IMG SRC="smilies/laugh2.gif" border="0">

    <font size="1">[ January 04, 2003: Message edited by: Charlieboy ]</font>

  11. #71
    Senior Member TigerWong's Avatar
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    Charlieboy: If you look back on an earlier remark Kenny made in the discussion, he mentioned that in HSDS someone (I forget who and I'm too lazy and tired right now to search through these long posts... <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">) said that no one, not even JY, could scrape the stone without the aid of the buckets + chain. Since KF has done so, I interpreted it to mean no one "in that era" could do it. Since the remark was made in HSDS, "that era" meant the era of HSDS and does not refer to the people in DGSD.

    <font size="1">[ January 04, 2003: Message edited by: TigerWong ]</font>

  12. #72
    Senior Member Athena's Avatar
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    Back to the LDS and LDA, it's true that Xiao Feng used that to injure the 4th Evil. And pushed Ding ChunQiu away. But those are considerable weaker than Xiao Feng.
    Also MuRong Bo was "running away" from Xiao YuanShan and Xiao Feng. He never expected that Xiao Feng would be that strong (hence that terrible racial remark of his:"This small Khitan dog has very powerful stance energy indeed!") He was taken by surprise as Hong QiGong and OuYang Feng were engaging in normal combat and were cautious. (Well Hong wasn't that cautious because he was ambushed)
    I mean Huang YaoShi used a pebble to block an expert like JinLun FaWang (who could be stronger than Huang). The "Greats" could perform a LDA action against martial artists weaker than they are like Li MoChou, Mei ChaoFeng, Wu SanTong, GongSun Zhi, etc.
    However the occasion just never rose for them to do so. That doesn't mean they can't do it. Furthermore Tigerwong made an excellent remark about knowing and having the technique to perform a LDA. Xiao Feng, Xiao YuanShan, MuRong Bo and JiuMo Zhi had great stance energies because powerful fierce palm techniques were their specialties. Whereas Huang YaoShi was skilled in "elegant" martial arts not placing emphasis on fierce and powerful rather on refinement and elegance but with "XIAN TIAN GANG QI" as foundation.
    I agree with Tigerwong here about using LDA and LDA to categorize fighters.
    However I do believe that the difference between Xiao Feng, MuRong Bo, etc and the "Greats" isn't that big.
    The formulas and equations are in my opinion not strong enough to support anything yet.
    I really believe what JueYuan and Xiao Feng did have similarities at first hand but nevertheless if we take a closer look there are many things we have to consider. First of Xiao Feng wiped away the characters JueYuan scraped a chessboard away. According to many dictionaries (i.e. Oxford, Cobuild)
    Wipe: removing/clearing something away from the surface by rubbing.
    Scrape: make/clean/level/smooth surface with a tool.
    Therefore both situations and actions are different, and cannot be really compared.
    Perhaps this is really a matter of semantics but nevertheless there is a difference in scraping and wiping.
    So the statement XF ~ = JMZ,
    XF &gt; JY
    JY ~ = "Greats"
    isn't necessarily true Because it is based on 2 completely different situations and different actions that really are incomparable.

    Also JiuMo Zhi wanted to give the ShaoLin Monastery a Xia Ma Wei (giving them a head-on blow at the first encounter) or XianShen Duo Ren (forestall one's opponent by a show of strenght; overawe others by displaying one's strength). So isn't it logical that he would do extra his best, and also he knew that a big martial arts school like ShaoLin wouldn't resort to a mass attack on 1 person. Also a lot of monks were crying when abbot XuanCi said they were to go (those Indian monks). So I agree with TristeCoeur.

    About Ode to Gallantry I too find it difficult to believe that people in this novel would perhaps rank higher than characters from DGSD or even LOCH, ROCH and HSDS.
    Because there are not really any evidence or clues to link it to other stories.

    Abbot TianMing said that no matter how powerful one's internal strength may be you cannot leave deep footprints behind in tiles.
    When Xiao Feng wiped away those characters no one not even the narrator (jin yong) wrote that this cannot be done by others. Only that writing characters on tiles is difficult but erasing them is even more difficult.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

  13. #73
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    Ken Cheng wrote:
    &gt; No. I don't think the Shaolin monks would just capitulate,
    &gt; but Kau Mor Tze did have them in a humiliating pickle of
    &gt; a situation that they couldn't have gotten out of with
    &gt; their pride intact unless Hui Juk or the Janitor Monk
    &gt; intervened. They wouldn't close shop, but so much for
    &gt; their vaunted reputation in the martial world after that
    &gt; visit by Kau Mor Tze.

    I can agree with that. I think w/ gentle talk & circus tricks, they began to feel a bit embarrass, and probably a bit down on themselves for not doing well enough in the kungfu they practiced. After KMT defeated one of their strongest, they started to feel humiliated, but still, even w/o HJ and the JM, they wouldn't disband w/o a tough fight, probably down to their last man.

    Charlieboy wrote:
    &gt; Hi there, just in need of some clarification, how accurate
    &gt; is the translated quote from Laviathan and WHO states
    &gt; the information, because if it is Jin Yong himself rather
    &gt; than through a character, wouldn't it suggest that without
    &gt; the aid of tools, NO person in JY world can perform such a feat?

    &gt; "no matter how strong one's inner power is, it's impossible
    &gt; to leave IMPRINTS on a stone ground by stepping on it."

    This is the thoughts of Shaolin Abbot and also of the other monks there witnessing JY's feat (or, um.. feet! <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">.) But then, you can say that it's what Jin Yong had in mind and wanted to express it through the monks' thoughts.

    The part about JueYuan would not be able to wipe out the Go board w/o tools is stated by Jin Yong in the narratives. So this source is reliable.

    &gt; your equations are smoking my brain out!!! Anyway, learning a lot from the effort you guys are putting in

    Heehee... don't put too much thought into it! <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"> We don't even know for sure how inner power works. I just thought numbers help my explain better, that's all...

    TristeCoeur:
    &gt; Kenny, you keep saying that JMZ wanted Shaolin to disband
    &gt; .......surely he wanted so, but he didn't go there to
    &gt; disband Shaolin.

    No, in the novel, he actually asked (or should I have said "ordered") the Shaolin monks to just leave, which started an uproar among the Shaolin members.

    &gt; One man, no matter how strong he is, cannot disband Shaolin.
    &gt; JMZ wasn't stupid enough to fight the whole Shaolin !

    But he did. His goal was to earn fame by disbanding Shaolin by himself. It is exactly the fact that he's only one man that he might want to conserve his energy when he was just showing off.

    &gt; It was a great chance for him to show off his skills, then
    &gt; defeat a few of the best Shaolin monks -&gt; humiliate Shaolin.
    &gt; After that, they wouldn't be able to keep their heads up in
    &gt; wulin. That's his goal. You can't use force to disband such
    &gt; a big organisation. You use tricks to let them do it themselves.

    I think you should read the novel first...

    TigerWong wrote:
    &gt; Hmmm...I'm starting to wonder if this statement is necessarily true.

    I'm not stating that it must be true. But I'm making a "simplifying assumption". There might be some overlaps between the low end of LDS and the high end of the Conventional class, for example, so that the strongest Con member might be able to defeat the weakest of all LDS. That's why I said I would still assume 6M to be in LDS, despite being able to use one of the 6Swords, this is also why I said I wasn't sure if WY should be in LDS, even though she never shown that she could do any LDS'ing. The real reason I wanted to separate fighters into these three groups is that I believe there are reasons that LDAttakers could perform LDAs, that LDShovers could perform LDSs, (and to me, that reason is usually higher inner power,) but whatever this reason is, it would also makes them stronger fighter in general. Sure, assuming this reason is actually inner power, but like I said before, if you have slight lower inner power than your opponent, you can make up for it w/ techniques, talents, etc., so strictly speaking, a couple of top Con fighters might be able to beat the weakest LDSers, but I assume the overlapping is small compared to the number of all fighters in the world that this overlap is negligible.

    &gt; I understand your reasoning for making this contention because
    &gt; you wanted to stress a point, but technically they are LDA
    &gt; because of 6MSJ, right? Or at the very least, top of the LDS
    &gt; class, if I am to follow your reasoning.

    Mainly because they've just learnt 1MSJ for just that afternoon, and after this scene we never saw them fight again. Since we have no idea how strong they've become or how effective they're at using 1MSJ, so I just "took" 1MSJ out of them in this comparison.

    &gt; By saying "equally impressive", do you mean "equally matched"?
    &gt; JMZ's and YD's Gentle Talking are also equally impressive.

    In the novel, Duan Zheng Ming and other members of 6M had tried to hit their opponents from a fairly far distance away (my assumption ~= 10 feet), but causing no injuries to their opponents. In RoCH, YD and the Golden Wheel Monk fought each other, and the "wind" generated from their attacks shoved their opponent backward until the two of them were about 10 feet apart. And they remained 10 feet or so apart at that point, indicating that the "wind" probably wasn't strong enough once it reaches further than that distance.

    &gt; Not necessarily... Because evidence doesn't exist to say whether 6M &gt; Greats or Greats &gt; 6M, one can't conclude
    &gt; that they're the same. Just that theres no conclusion.

    Well, in this case, H_0 is 6M = Greats. After that you should try as hard as you can to prove the opposite, that 6M &lt;&gt; Greats. If after that we still can't prove 6M &lt;&gt; Greats, we say, in statistical terms, "we fail to reject the H_0: 6M = Greats". Note that we never said "we accept the H_0" because we still don't know for certain if the H_0 is true, we're just claiming that we found no reason to indicate that it's false.

    And also, as I stated before, I considered them roughly equal, not really equal.

    &gt; Theres no evidence to suggest that I'm smarter than my
    &gt; next door neighbor, doesn't mean we're equally smart.

    But once you stated H_0: IQ(TW) = IQ(Neighbor), I guess it'd be easily proven otherwise if H_0 is indeed false... But then, again, this isn't exactly statistics... I'm just borrowing a concept used in that area.

    &gt; But I think you meant to say that there is nothing to
    &gt; disprove your contention that 6M = The Greats. And from
    &gt; what I'm reading, that contention is based on the Ability
    &gt; to perform LDS.

    Also the fact that they were the strongest fighters after the 10 or so LDAttackers. If all LDAttackers suddenly died (in the novel, several died, and many of the rest became hermit-like,) these 6M and a couple other in their same class would become the Greats of their era.

    &gt; I think this is why the whole LDS thing is starting to nag
    &gt; at me. Why are the other Greats "in LDS"? Wong Yeark
    &gt; See needs to flick tangible objects to stun.

    He needed to flick an object if he actually wanted to injure someone. But he could, from his attacks, generate enough wind to push his opponents backward. If I remember correctly, he did this against Qiu Chu Ji before.

    &gt; Your contention was that LDS &gt; conventional. Is the criteria for being in LDS being able to perform this ability or
    &gt; not? If H7G can't do LDS then he is conventional.

    Actually, in the novels, when top fighters are fighting weaker opponents, it's not uncommon for the strong fighters to generate enough "wind" to either keep their opponents away or to hinder their speed, quickness, or movement. I also consider them to be in LDS. Basically, I guess if one has strong enough palm "wind" (or any other form of "wind" generated from attacks) to affect his/her opponent in anyway w/o having to physically touch them, but yet isn't strong enough to injure the opponent from long-distance, then this fighter is in LDS. And in LoCH/RoCH, I believe there are examples for each of the Greats. I just called those w/ "hindering" abilities as "shovers" in general.


    &gt; (Just like if 6M knows 6MSJ, then they're LDA)

    Like I said, I consider that there should be some overlapping areas, but these overlapping areas is small enough to be negligible. At the time, 6M had just learnt a new technique that gave them the LDA ability (probably the only technique that specifically designed for LDAs,) since in almost every other case, I consider people in LDA with stronger inner power, I wasn't sure if I should classify them truly as LDA yet. In a sense, they're on "probation". If they kept on practicing it and ended up mastering 1MSJ, then they're safe in LDA regardless of inner power, but they never had another fight again since the first chapters or so, I just took the more conservative route and consider them as LDS.

    &gt; And this
    &gt; contradicts LDS &gt; conventinoal because YD = H7G. We shouldn't be changing definitions for different parts of the
    &gt; discussion.

    No, I just didn't write down my definitions clearly enough the last time. (I never thought you would have so many questions...)

    &gt; I guess my point is this: Can we instead look at LDS as a
    &gt; unique Ability that comes with a certain type of training
    &gt; and not as something that is automatically acquired after
    &gt; reaching a certain threshold of inner power? If it is not
    &gt; automatically acquired, which obviously it's not, then can
    &gt; we really use it as a gauge of power? (at least not by
    &gt; itself) Can we not say that one just didn't happen to learn
    &gt; it? Just like YG didn't learn how to Gentle Talk like YD?
    &gt; Or that DFBB didn't learn how to drain energy like Yum Ngor
    &gt; Han? Obviously, nobody believes YG is weaker than YD or that
    &gt; DFBB is weaker than YNH just because they couldn't duplicate
    &gt; an Ability.

    I'm going to describe a scene. And for now, I'm going to type new names in Canto... don't wanna look them up...

    In A Deadly Secret (Lin Sing Kuet), there was a time when both Fa Teet Gong and Dik Wan were trapped in an avalanche. Since they're w/o food, they had to survive by killing hawks and consume them for food. The novel stated that Dik Wan, despite the fact that he never learnt any advanced palm-type skills, could rely on his strong inner power to kill hawks without physically touching them. (I don't classify him as LDA based on this yet, because the force that enabled him to kill a hawk might not be strong enough for him to injury a fighter with respectable ability. Also, he was only a few feet away from the hawks, and I classify LDA to be able to attack from longer distance.) On the other hand, FTG knew much more advanced palm techniques, but the novel said he couldn't perform what DW did because his inner power wasn't high enough.

    Also, in DGSD, JY stated that no matter how strong one's palm strength is, one cannot attack from further than 50 feet away. Since with everything else being equal, higher inner power means higher palm strength, we can say it's a statement about inner power, too.

    From these two example, I guess we can deduce that LDA is dependent mainly on inner power, (with the exception that if you learn 6MSJ) and the distance that the attacks can reach is also highly dependent on how strong your inner power is. And I've always consider LDS to be a weaker version of LDA, where you might not be strong enough to injure another person w/o contacts, but strong enough to make your presence felt.

    And actually, most top fighters in major novels have LDS abilities. In DGSD, there are probably 20 fighters outside the top 10 could do it. In the Trilogy, most of the fighers in the same class as the Greats had shown to have that. The three Shaolin elder monks in HSDS also could. I can probably name 4 or 5 from Ode to the Gallantry and a few from SoD who could. Also, the One-armed Nun in DoMD. There are also others that I cannot immediately think of. Basically, if I have a list of top 80 fighters off all novels, (assuming the list is accurate, say, compiled by JY himself...,) and more than half of them could do this, I think I have good reason to believe it's not a specific skill that has to be learnt nor a specific type of inner power is required.

    &gt; My hypothesis is that it does take a certain threshold of
    &gt; inner power to perform certain Abilities, but that it may
    &gt; also require other factors like "orthodox inner power" or
    &gt; special training. Not being able to use this Ability doesn't
    &gt; mean that the person hasn't crossed that threshold. Basically,
    &gt; I'm looking at LDS as something more like Gentle Talking
    &gt; rather than something like rubbing out characters on stone.

    The difference between Gentle Talking and LDS is that, of all the strong fighters, there are only probably 5 or 6 people who have shown that they can do this Gentle Talking while there are probably 50+ who can do LDS, leaving an impression that the former is a specific skill w/ specific requirement while for the latter, you only have to be strong.

    Also, LDS looks in many ways like a weaker version of LDA, which I also believe is something you acquire almost automatically once you have enough inner power.

    &gt; Or to view it another way. The 6M are LDA because 6MSJ gives
    &gt; you the ability to harm others. It's just that JMZ was too
    &gt; strong. But if you take a weaker fighter, the 6M would have
    &gt; hurt them. The strength of the opponent plays a factor.

    Sure, the opponent is also a factor. This has come up in previous discussions in JY forum. I just haven't mentioned it (or just forgot to mention it) this time around.

    LDA, for example, it's generally accepted that KF can't really hurt an opponent who's in his same class, but he could injure another fighter a class below. On the other hand, the Greats never shown such ability even against weaker fighters (against the 7 Taoist, for example.)

    Same thing can be said about LDS. When I said someone has the ability to hinder his/her opponents' movement with "wind", I'm making an assumption that the opponents have at least some level of inner power to allow him to at least resist such wind. Like in RoCH, YD could use his attacks to gradually shove the GWM back as far as 10 or so feet, one would say that this force is strong enough to kill a newborn baby from around the same distance away, but still, that wouldn't be enough for me to classify him as LDA because a newborn is not much of an opponent.

    &gt; Thus,
    &gt; is the LDA "label" by itself reason enough to begin grouping
    &gt; fighters together? Obviously, JMZ is in a class above the 6M.

    Well, how many fighters could use LDA, not counting the 6M, (since I've said 6M is on probation and is on the borderline between the two groups,) in the entire JY collection? There are roughly 10... and JMZ is one of the weakest in that group. So is it enough to say those in LDA are stronger than those in LDS? I think we can, if we say that LDA = {Janitor Monk, Three Elders, Three Sworn Brothers, JMZ, MRB, XYS}

    &gt; I needed to break this post up too. Too many long posts! But
    &gt; so much to say... Oh well, just gets me one step closer to
    &gt; getting a custom Avatar.

    How many do you need for a custom pic ar? <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

    &gt; Yep. And you never deigned to replied! *humph* How arrogant!!

    Heh... You actually said you disagree w/ my list because it doesn't look like how it is in the series... <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"> And I was taking time off from JY so I didn't want to reply... I'm not sure I replied to Moin too. <IMG SRC="smilies/bow.gif" border="0">

    &gt; But I LOVE the way you made those characters. Did you do the art yourself?

    Thanks, and yes, I drew them all... I actually found them silly after awhile so I stop updating...

    I also thought it would be cool if some long-lost friends stumble into my site... but that never happened, and that's also one of the reasons I'm not as excited about creating/updating it anymore.

    &gt; I especially liked how you had little Duen Yue scamper across
    &gt; the screen using his Ling Bong Mai Bo!

    Ha! Did I say it was DY? I actually had DY in mind when I drew that guy, but I don't remember actually writing that he's DY...

    Well, DY is my fav male char, so it makes sense for me to put him on my title page... especially when I wasn't going to put him as one of my top-10.

    &gt; I've always wanted to do a wuxia fighting RPG game. And even
    &gt; though my job is making video games, I don't think I'll get
    &gt; a chance to make a wuxia one. Not unless I start my own company.

    Or you can change company... <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

    &gt; You should continue updating that site. I wanna see Top 10
    &gt; lists and drawings of characters from Ode to Gallantry!

    I actually "promised" someone I would make a SoD list and a OtG list... but I lost interest in that site shortly after I made that promise.

    &gt; Speaking of which, people have brought the point up that
    &gt; Shi Por Tien is stronger than the Greats, and yet no
    &gt; one says a word.

    And I agree w/ them. I had said before at the JY forum that I consider SPT to be the strongest character *outside* of DGSD.

    &gt; I'm already blown away by your descriptions of KF's feats,
    &gt; and people still argue against KF &gt; Greats. What the heck
    &gt; has Shi Por Tien done that makes people shut up?

    Well... no LDA...

    I don't want to go into too much details, but mainly, he seemed to be much stronger than, say, Cheung Sam or Lee Sei, even more so that a Great is stronger than say, Yau Chu Gei... And I'm more impressed with CS/LS than I'm w/ YCG. Hence SPT &gt; Greats.

    &gt; It also seems like there are a LOT of powerful characters
    &gt; in Ode to Gallantry. Where does that all fit within the
    &gt; Deterioration Theory?

    Yes, it does leave an impression that OtG is sort of an exception to the ToD, with several really strong fighters at the top. I don't know about the the whole society in general, though. Because, say, in HSDS, there are only the two Cheungs who're clearly really good, (the yellow-dressed lady questionable), but after those two there are 30-40 strong fighters. So if we could have a Top-100InHSDS vs Top-100InOtG, I'm still not sure OtG would necessarily win.

    &gt; Then this quote from your site - "JMZ has only about 20
    &gt; years of experience in practicing SMSG... LCS has about
    &gt; 70 years of SMSG in her, so it is reasonable to assume
    &gt; that she is at least three times stronger than JMZ" is a
    &gt; bit misleading.

    True. Like I said, the site was done in '97 and I have change some of my opinions since then. Like now, I believe inner power increases at sort of a logarithmic rate: The more years you put into it, the slower you're going to improve. But overall, I still consider LCS to have stronger inner power than JMZ.

    &gt; What I meant was this. If one believes that JY = Greats.
    &gt; And one believes that CWJ could have done what KF did
    &gt; because he knew how to utilize 9-Yang.

    But then, I don't necessarily believe he can even w/ QKDLY.

    &gt; Then it just shows
    &gt; that CWJ &gt; Greats and doesn't bring KF down to the
    &gt; Greats' level.

    Also, in terms of overall fighting abilities, there's more to this. CWJ doesn't seem to have too much fighter's instinct, and he often have troubles even against weaker fighters. He also seemed to overestimate his opponents a lot more often than Greats, (a lack of knowledge?) So even if he has as much inner power as the Greats and w/ even better utilization because of QKDLY, he may not necessarily defeat a Great.

    As for KF, we really don't have to worry about his talents, personality, experience, knowledge, etc. He proved that he's good in those areas, and if we can prove that his inner power is stronger than the Great, then KF &gt; Greats.

    &gt; I'm starting to look at it like this: KF &gt; Greats ~= ZWJ &gt; JY.
    &gt; Although JY has the same amount of inner power as
    &gt; the Greats, we're talking about who would win in a fight.
    &gt; And that takes into account all the other factors you
    &gt; mentioned: experience, mentality, etc.

    Then, of course. But when I said in terms of inner power, I only meant the amount of inner power stored in their bodies. In that case, I'd still think KF &gt; Greats ~= JY ~= ZWJ. But you're right, JY can't fight, so he's dead last if you take that into account.

    Okay... Again... I found that Athena has posted since I started writing this reply... and am too tired to keep typing... so I'll either come back tonight or tomorrow morning to post again.

  14. #74

    Post

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">Originally posted by Kenny:
    <STRONG>Heh... You actually said you disagree w/ my list because it doesn't look like how it is in the series... And I was taking time off from JY so I didn't want to reply... I'm not sure I replied to Moin too.</STRONG></font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    heh, don't worry Kenny, even if you didn't reply, I probably wouldn't have known the difference. I must confess that I still have not thru any of your posts on this thread as a whole yet. What can I say? I'm a sucker with a very short attention span. <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">
    春花秋月几时了,
    往事知多少?
    小楼昨夜又东风,
    故国不堪回首明月中.
    雕栏玉砌应犹在,
    只是朱颜改.
    问君能有几多愁,
    恰似一江春水向东流.
    --南唐后主,李煜.

  15. #75
    Senior Member Athena's Avatar
    Join Date
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    Mount Olympus, sipping nectar and eating ambrosia
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    Post

    Also Kenny why would you think that TianShan TongLao, WuYa Zi and Li QiuShui would belong to the same class as experts like Xiao YuanShan, MuRong Bo, Xiao Feng, JiuMo Zhi etc.
    After talking to people like Laviathan they seem to be of the impression (as am I) that the 3 martial arts brothers and sisters should only be higher than the aboved named experts.
    Also that was the general impression I got after reading the novel a few times.
    Not sure whether they would be in the same category as the Old Nameless Monk.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

  16. #76
    Senior Member TigerWong's Avatar
    Join Date
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    Post

    Kenny: I'll just make some quick comments on a few points (These long posts are draining <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">). I'll try to respond to the LDA/LDS issue later... I see your points about inner power and am more inclined to believe LDA/LDS as a sort of Feat similiar to JY's scraping (i.e., mainly inner power), but I'm not sure if that's enough to make an assumption like 6M = Greats (mainly due to the Overlay factor, the Strength of Opponent factor, and the huge range in LDS)...Why not 6M = one of the 3 Elders of Shaolin in HSDS? Are you using the 10 ft examples of YD pushing GLFW vs. 6M pushing others from that "same" distance as the basis?

    BTW - Who do you consider the strongest Conventional fighter?

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"But I'm making a "simplifying assumption" - Kenny regarding LDA &gt; LDS &gt; Conventional</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Fine. Then the use of just this argument to lump fighters together should carry less weight and other factors can be examined. (Although this one shouldn't be ignored...)

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"so I just "took" 1MSJ out of them in this comparison." - Kenny</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Even if you "ignore" their LDA capabilities, do you agree that they must be at the height of the LDS group? Unless you're saying that even people in the lower part of LDS can learn 1MSJ and injure people...in which case, LDA suddenly becomes more of an Art rather than a gauge of inner power.

    Personally, I'm starting to think LDA and LDS are essentially the same thing...

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"Well, in this case, H_0 is 6M = Greats. After that you should try as hard as you can to prove the opposite, that 6M &lt;&gt; Greats." - Kenny</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    You're the one that contends H_0 is 6M = Greats. The burden of proof should be on you to prove that is true.

    We can't just accept that and try to prove the opposite because the evidence is limited and it's impossible to get more than what is already in the books.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"But once you stated H_0: IQ(TW) = IQ(Neighbor), I guess it'd be easily proven otherwise if H_0 is indeed false..." - Kenny</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    How would it be easily proven? Up to this point, we've been using these formulas only to illustrate points. I think it'd be unwise to start using formulas themselves as actual reasons for something, and should stick to evidence found in the books.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"Also the fact that they were the strongest fighters after the 10 or so LDAttackers. If all LDAttackers suddenly died (in the novel, several died, and many of the rest became hermit-like,) these 6M and a couple other in their same class would become the Greats of their era." - Kenny</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    The Greats in that era, but not necessarily greater or equal to the Greats in the LOCH era. But I haven't forgotten the point you made about the "wind" of the 6M vs. YD. I'm just saying that we can't equate fighters because of how they happened to rank in their respective eras.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"LDA = {Janitor Monk, Three Elders, Three Sworn Brothers, JMZ, MRB, XYS}" - Kenny</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Has every one of them actually displayed LDA? Or are you lumping some in because they've shown themselves to be equal in some other manner and you assume that they must have the LDA ability.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"How many do you need for a custom pic ar?" - Kenny</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    500. But you can pick one from the ones available before reaching that mark. Theres a lot to choose from already.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"I actually found them silly after awhile so I stop updating..." - Kenny</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I thought they were cute, esp. LCS w. that little scar on her face. Sorta look like baby anime. I draw too, and I've always found it harder to instill "personally" than to draw realistically.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"Ha! Did I say it was DY?" - Kenny</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    You didn't have a caption underneath...but I assumed it was. But since you didn't rank DY, I guess you re-used some other character.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"Or you can change company..." - Kenny</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Yeah, but even at small companies, it'd be very difficult to pitch the idea. Plus, I just got here not too long ago and it's the biggest in the US, so it'd be hard for me to leave now for a smaller company again. But someday, somehow... I plan to make a wuxia game. Just don't see it happening soon. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"Well... no LDA... I don't want to go into too much details," - Kenny</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Right. But my point was that KF, et al. seems so impressive but yet I see less pushback when someone mentions that SPT &gt; Greats. Who doesn't even have LDA! I'm hoping he at least demonstrated LDS, otherwise things will start getting confusing...


    Athena wrote:

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">First of Xiao Feng wiped away the characters JueYuan scraped a chessboard away. According to many dictionaries (i.e. Oxford, Cobuild)
    Wipe: removing/clearing something away from the surface by rubbing.
    Scrape: make/clean/level/smooth surface with a tool.
    Therefore both situations and actions are different, and cannot be really compared.
    Perhaps this is really a matter of semantics but nevertheless there is a difference in scraping and wiping.
    So the statement XF ~ = JMZ,
    XF &gt; JY
    JY ~ = "Greats"
    isn't necessarily true Because it is based on 2 completely different situations and different actions that really are incomparable.
    </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I guess the key would be how deep the characters were embedded in the stone. If you say it only scratched the surface, then I see your point. But didn't someone say that it was deeper than that? That theres no reason to think it wasn't any less deep than the chess board? In that case, the argument between "wipe" and "scrape" boils down to a matter of semantics. Because KF would have needed to make several deep impressions, swiping across the stone, in order to level it out.

    <font size="1">[ January 04, 2003: Message edited by: TigerWong ]</font>

  17. #77
    Senior Member Laviathan's Avatar
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    OK, this will be my last post, I promiss!

    I will not discuss the topic of LDS/LDA nor will I return to the subject of Jueyuan/Xiao Feng. Only want to say a few things...

    TristeCoeur wrote:

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> Kenny, you keep saying that JMZ wanted Shaolin to disband.......surely he wanted so, but he didn't go there to disband Shaolin. One man, no matter how strong he is, cannot disband Shaolin. JMZ wasn't stupid enough to fight the whole Shaolin ! His plan was to humiliate them. When he arrived, there were many high ranked martial artists (most of them were abbots). It was a great chance for him to show off his skills, then defeat a few of the best Shaolin monks -&gt; humiliate Shaolin. After that, they wouldn't be able to keep their heads up in wulin. That's his goal. You can't use force to disband such a big organisation. You use tricks to let them do it themselves. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Kenny replied:

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> No, in the novel, he actually asked (or should I have said "ordered") the Shaolin monks to just leave, which started an uproar among the Shaolin members...But he did. His goal was to earn fame by disbanding Shaolin by himself. It is exactly the fact that he's only one man that he might want to conserve his energy when he was just showing off. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I agree with TristeCoeur. Jiumozhi when arriving at Shaolin behaved very politely and only when he had showed his skills he demanded arrogantly that Abbot Xuanci should renounce Shaolin's claim of the 72 Arts. Then he "suggested" that Shaolin should disband. But anyone with common sense would realise that this is impossible. Jiumozhi's victory would surely humiliate Shaolin, weaken its' position in the martial arts world... but with so many monks and laymen disciples shattered all over China, the Shaolin school would never cease to exist. I think Jiumozhi is wise enough to realise that. He merely "suggested" this in order to mock Shaolin.

    About Jiumozhi preserving his strength... Golden Lion Xie Xun generated his power three times as a preparation before he went to kill Song Yuanqiao (he later met Kongjian), I think Jiumozhi would also have been fully powered up before entering Shaolin Temple. The transmission of his voice, in my opinion, would not have weakened his inner strength.

    About Shi Potian: I agree that Shi Potian is one of the most powerful fighters of the Jin Yong universe... actually, I personally feel that he is THE MOST POWERFUL of all male protagonists!!! Of course, I don't have any proof as usual, it's only my personal opinion. But why do I feel this way? Because Shi Potian is the only male protagonist who actually defeated two invincible fighters of his own era.

    During the period of Ode to Gallantry, there was no one who could equal the skills of Zhang San and Li Si of Gallant Island... (IMHO, the rest of the fighters in the novel weren't really that good) but they were only the disciples of Lord Long and Lord Mu. The two Lords' might was enough to block the gate of Shaolin Temple, no one could enter or leave! The martial arts level of these two men were considered divine and incomprehensible, but even their combined power could not overcome Shi Potian's newly acquired Ode to Gallantry martial art. It was also mentioned by Lord Long that "throughout the entire history, very few can equal" Shi Potian's level. And well, Ode to Gallantry was one of the last novels of Jin Yong (I believe it was written after DGSD? Not sure) so this statement should mean something. Shi Potian's internal power was superb, and the art of Ode to Gallantry astonishing.

    My point is: although we are not sure how good the two Lords are, it is certain that they are unsurpassed during their era. They attacked Shi Potian with all their might, the power of their combined attacks made the walls crumble... and in the end, the two lords died of exhaustion. Now, who else from all Jin Yong male characters can do that? Can Xiao Feng take on both Xao Yuanshan and Murong Bo? Can Guo Jing defeat both Hong Qigong and Ouyang Feng? Can Linghu Chong kill Ren Woxing and Fangzheng at the same time? Not likely, if not impossible.

    Of course, we don't know how strong the two lords are... AND Shi Potian was in a trance when he fought them, we don't know how he would perform in a normal state of mind. But he certainly has the potential. The way it was described in the novel, it really gave me the impression that Shi Potian IS the King of the Jin Yong Hill.

    Now, hope that Kenny and Tigerwong will analyse this case of Shi Potian.

    I am now really quitting this, and I believe Athena is also very busy.

    So, Kenny and Tigerwong, keep up the good work!

    Kenny, please use the "Quote" function, the layout of your posts is terrible! <IMG SRC="smilies/yikes.gif" border="0">

    I enjoyed this discussion very much. Goodbye!

    <font size="1">[ January 05, 2003: Message edited by: Laviathan ]</font>
    對 敵 須 狠 , 斬 草 除 根 , 男 女 老 幼 , 不 留 一 人

  18. #78
    Senior Member TigerWong's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"The two Lords' might was enough to block the gate of Shaolin Temple, no one could enter or leave!" - Laviathan</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I was skimming through the Chinese JY forum and I saw someone argue that SPT &gt; Lords L+M &gt; All of Shaolin &gt; 3 Shaolin Elders in HSDS &gt; ZWJ. I thought that was pretty funny. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"Now, hope that Kenny and Tigerwong will analyse this case of Shi Potian." - Laviathan</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I'm not gonna analyze SPT cause I never read the novels. <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">

    In fact, I'm not really analyzing anything besides the arguments people are using to support their points. I'm just here to learn from the people who've read the novels, and there were some points that didn't make as much sense to me that I'm trying to understand.

    Anyway, 'preciate the input everyone is putting in. Learned a lot. Now if ppl would start discussing Gu Long in such detail... <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

  19. #79
    Senior Member Athena's Avatar
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    This discussion is too interesting to stop right now. Also I still have some time left so I will participate a bit longer.

    The matter on JueYuan and Xiao Feng is really in the eye of the beholder.
    The characters left behind by Duan YanQing were quite deep and Xiao had to wipe a few times in order to erase them.
    As JueYuan used his chains to scrape away the go-board leaving behind deep imprints.

    Anyway I'm convinced by Laviathan's comments on Shi PoTian.
    Nothing to add just agree with him. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

    But back to LDA and LDS. Just because reverend YiDeng and JinLun FaWang stood about 5 metres apart from each other. Doesn't necessarily put them in the LDS category.
    Can I say that the energy released by JinLun FaWang and reverend YiDeng can "travel" about 5 metres. (one zhang is 3 metres).
    When Xiao Feng attacked Ding ChunQiu he stood about 50 metres apart from him. However Xiao Feng quickly advanced forward during his usage of "Kang Long You Hui." Closing in the gap between himself and Ding by almost a half. Now the distance was only about 26 metres apart.
    No matter how powerful your martial arts is, no one can strike someone down more than 17, 5 metres away.
    Although Ding ChunQiu didn't dare to uderestimate Xiao. He never guessed that Xiao was aiming for him, suddenly he realised that Xiao was only standing only about 12 metres away from himself.
    And again he used "Kang Long You Hui" the latter palm pushing the former palm forward. The combining energy of 2 palms was crashing down on Ding who stood now 12 metres away from him. If 2 palms combined can reach about 12 metres, then the energy of one palm is only the half so can "only" reach 6 metres. Right?
    So in other words the discrepancy between Xiao Feng andJinLun FaWang, reverend YiDeng's range isn't that big.
    Am I wrong to make such a calculation and assumption? Please feel free to comment, anyone? Tigerwong, Kenny, Moinllieon, or even Laviathan?
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

  20. #80
    Senior Member Athena's Avatar
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    With the above example I wanted to say that perhaps LDA and LDA are essentially
    the same thing. Like Tigerwong wrote earlier. Even if we do stick to the LDA and LDS rule. That doesn't necessarily mean that the "Greats" in LOCH/ROCH are LSD experts, for all we know they might be LDA.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

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