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Thread: Martial arts comparison between DGSD era and LOCH/ROCH era

  1. #81
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    Argh... This forum's server seemed to be down yesterday, so I couldn't connect...

    First off, to Lav, about my formatting... the box where we type in our replies is way too small on my browser, so I had to copy and paste to Wordpad to type in my replies, and then copy the whole thing back to this forum. This is why I don't use the quote function. Also, I found the quoted parts have font size too small for my liking, as I often have difficulties reading my own writing that others quoted. So I'll just continue to post in my own format...

    Now to Athena:
    > Back to the LDS and LDA, it's true that Xiao Feng used
    > that to injure the 4th Evil. And pushed Ding ChunQiu
    > away. But those are considerable weaker than Xiao Feng.

    Ding was about one class weaker. The others were probably two classes below. But the Greats never shown that they have such abilities even against much weaker opponents.

    > I mean Huang YaoShi used a pebble to block an expert
    > like JinLun FaWang (who could be stronger than Huang).

    He also used pebble when he had to attack weaker fighters from long distance.

    > The "Greats" could perform a LDA action against martial
    > artists weaker than they are like Li MoChou, Mei ChaoFeng,
    > Wu SanTong, GongSun Zhi, etc.

    Can you be more specific? I would like to see a quote from the book very much!

    Again, from my own reading, I never noticed an instance where a Great was able to use LDA to injure a weaker fighter. I remember Kwok (a former poster in the JY forum) was saying the same thing. And I had been involved in a few DGSD-vs-Trilogy debates over the years in a Taiwanese JY newsgroup, and I've never seen a Trilogy-supporter claiming that the Greats had injured someone through LDA. This is why I'm very interested in seeing a quote.

    > Tigerwong made an excellent remark about knowing and having
    > the technique to perform a LDA. Xiao Feng, Xiao YuanShan,
    > MuRong Bo and JiuMo Zhi had great stance energies because
    > powerful fierce palm techniques were their specialties.

    This point doesn't stand when you consider XF and H7G and GJ all knew the Dragon Palm as their main technique.

    Also from the Dik Wan (Di Yun) - Fa Teet Gong (Hua Tie Gan) comparison that I gave, LDA/LDS is highly inner power dependent, and techniques have very little to do w/ it.

    > Whereas Huang YaoShi was skilled in "elegant" martial arts
    > not placing emphasis on fierce and powerful rather on refinement
    > and elegance but with "XIAN TIAN GANG QI" as foundation.

    But not every Great was a finesse fighter. HYS seemed to be the only one among them. But Greats as a whole had not shown that they could others through long-distance.

    > First of Xiao Feng wiped away the characters JueYuan scraped a
    > chessboard away. According to many dictionaries (i.e. Oxford, Cobuild)
    > Wipe: removing/clearing something away from the surface by rubbing.
    > Scrape: make/clean/level/smooth surface with a tool.

    I thought this topic's been beaten to death by now...

    If we keep in mind that the words that XF "wiped" were deeply carved into the stone surface, possibly a couple inches deep, and that XF made them completely disappear, and even turned the stone floor into a beach, then the everyday definition of the word "wipe" becomes irrelevent because we know for certain that XF didn't just "rub the surface".

    > Also JiuMo Zhi wanted to give the ShaoLin Monastery a Xia
    > Ma Wei (giving them a head-on blow at the first encounter)
    > or XianShen Duo Ren (forestall one's opponent by a show of
    > strenght; overawe others by displaying one's strength). So
    > isn't it logical that he would do extra his best, and also
    > he knew that a big martial arts school like ShaoLin wouldn't
    > resort to a mass attack on 1 person. Also a lot of monks were
    > crying when abbot XuanCi said they were to go (those Indian
    > monks).

    Still, the same old argument that if he wanted Shaolin to disband, he should've expected tough fights, and that gave him good reasons to conserve energy.

    > About Ode to Gallantry I too find it difficult to believe
    > that people in this novel would perhaps rank higher than
    > characters from DGSD or even LOCH, ROCH and HSDS.
    > Because there are not really any evidence or clues to link
    > it to other stories.

    Agreed that OtG and, say, the Trilogy don't have much common ground to link them together to allow a very detailed comparison. So in many times we have to go by our "impression" (which is subjective) when we're comparing SPT to, say, the Greats. This is actually one of the reasons there are less objections when posters claim that SPT is stronger than the Greats. More on this when I'm replying to TigerWong.

    > Abbot TianMing said that no matter how powerful one's
    > internal strength may be you cannot leave deep footprints
    > behind in tiles.

    But JueYuan "scraped" the lines with tools and Jin Yong wrote that he couldn't do it w/o tools. Whether leaving footprints is an impossible feat or not becomes irrelevent. And the way I interpret that paragraph, JueYuan didn't leave footprints, it's just that TianMing at first thought JueYuan left footprints and thought that it's impossible, but on closer inspection he found that JueYuan didn't. He only wiped away the lines with his chains.

    > When Xiao Feng wiped away those characters
    > no one not even the narrator (jin yong) wrote that this cannot
    > be done by others. Only that writing characters on tiles is
    > difficult but erasing them is even more difficult.

    Well, of course Jin Yong wouldn't say it's an impossible feat, since XF just did it.

    > Also Kenny why would you think that TianShan TongLao, WuYa
    > Zi and Li QiuShui would belong to the same class as experts
    > like Xiao YuanShan, MuRong Bo, Xiao Feng, JiuMo Zhi etc.

    Maybe a good starting point is to discuss why the Three Elders should be ranked higher than XF, JMZ, etc.

    Is it because they're "rumored" to be able to kill 1st-class fighters in one moved? Well, MRB could also do that...
    Is it because they supposedly had super-high inner power? Higher than JMZ or XF? Maybe, but much much higher? If that's true, WuYa Zi should've just passed his inner power to his other student Su instead of XZ, since Wu + Su's inner power should suffice in defeating Ding. But the novel said it's not enough.

    I would not disagree if you put them slightly above XF, JMZ, etc. But the distinction isn't big enough to put the three of them in a class all by themselves.

    > The characters left behind by Duan YanQing were quite deep
    > and Xiao had to wipe a few times in order to erase them.

    Wipe a few times due to the total area of those 16 words. Imagine if each word is 1 sq ft. big, your leg would still have to go back and forth a couple times just to erase one word. Now you have a total of 16 words...

    > Just because reverend YiDeng and JinLun FaWang stood about
    > 5 metres apart from each other.

    The novel said more than 1 zhang (10 feet). I interpreted it as roughly 11 or 12 feet.

    > Doesn't necessarily put them in the LDS category.
    > Can I say that the energy released by JinLun FaWang and
    > reverend YiDeng can "travel" about 5 metres. (one zhang
    > is 3 metres).

    The book described the two as fighting from close distance at first, but their forces gradually pushed the other fighter away, until they were about 10 ft part. Can YD "shove" another person from 10 ft away? Possibly, but only against weaker fighters. Against JLFW, his "wind" seemed to lose effect beyond approximately 10 feet, or else the two of them would continue to split apart.

    > If 2 palms combined can reach about 12 metres, then the
    > energy of one palm is only the half so can "only" reach
    > 6 metres. Right?

    Not exactly, because by the time he threw his second palm, some of the energy from the first palm should have already dissipated. So it's not exactly correct to say what Ding had to face with was as strong as the total sum of three palms' strength, even though XF threw a total of three palms.

    > That doesn't
    > necessarily mean that the "Greats" in LOCH/ROCH are LSD
    > experts, for all we know they might be LDA.

    Don't believe it until I actually see it. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

    Again, if one Great can do it, I believe the rest of them should be able to by association. But of all the fights they were involved in, I haven't seen it once that someone's injured from it.

    To Moin:
    &gt; I must confess that I still have not thru any of your posts
    &gt; on this thread as a whole yet.

    Don't blame you. I don't even go back to read mine... <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">

    To TigerWong:
    &gt; Kenny: I'll just make some quick comments on a few points
    &gt; (These long posts are draining ).

    ... tell me about it! And I'm the one typing them!!!

    &gt; I'll try to respond
    &gt; to the LDA/LDS issue later... I see your points about inner
    &gt; power and am more inclined to believe LDA/LDS as a sort of
    &gt; Feat similiar to JY's scraping (i.e., mainly inner power),

    Yes, this is my point. And I'm not sure if I've made it clear enough, it's also one of my main points that because it's so highly inner power dependent, it justifies "classification by association". The same thing cannot be said about gentle talking because it requires specific type of inner power with possibly specific training.

    &gt; but I'm not sure if that's enough to make an assumption like
    &gt; 6M = Greats (mainly due to the Overlay factor, the Strength
    &gt; of Opponent factor, and the huge range in LDS)...Why not 6M
    &gt; = one of the 3 Elders of Shaolin in HSDS?

    No truly objective reasons, (which is common when comparing non-main characters.) Mainly because they were the strongests of LDS in DGSD, so it's more reasonable to say that they're in the, say, top-fifth of the entire LDS (close enough for me to say they're "roughly equal" to the Greats,) rather than the bottom-half of the entire LDS, where the 3 Shaolin Elders should belong.

    &gt; Are you using the 10 ft examples of YD pushing GLFW vs. 6M
    &gt; pushing others from that "same" distance as the basis?

    Not when I'm just considering this example by itself. But couple this with the fact that they're among the strongests of fighters below XF's class in DGSD.

    &gt; BTW - Who do you consider the strongest Conventional fighter?

    Honestly, I don't know. Since JY didn't give enough details about relatively weaker fighters for us to make an accurate cross-novels comparison.

    &gt; Even if you "ignore" their LDA capabilities, do you agree that
    &gt; they must be at the height of the LDS group?

    Even if they never learnt 1MSJ, what they could do before they learnt 1MSJ was enough for me to believe that they're among the strongests below the the level of XF, JMZ's, and this is enough for me to put them at the top-5th or so in the entire LDS group.

    &gt; Unless you're
    &gt; saying that even people in the lower part of LDS can learn
    &gt; 1MSJ and injure people...in which case, LDA suddenly becomes
    &gt; more of an Art rather than a gauge of inner power.

    6MSJ is probably the only technique that allows its practitioners to reach the LDA level before they gain as much inner power as other LDAttackers have. But its underlying principles are also much different from other LDA's. 6MSJ actually allows you to form an invisible "sword" with your inner power, where as other LDAttackers mainly rely on their "palm wind" (which something every strong fighters have..., it's just that only a few were able to injure others w/ it) to injure another person from long-distance. So overall, I consider 1MSJ somewhat of an exception to the norm when I'm using LDA/LDS to estimate the fighters' inner power, and that's why I've been reluctant to classify 6M as an LDA. (Note that I said 1MSJ. 6MSJ is different in that if you have enough inner power to learn all 6, you should certainly be in LDA anyway, so 6MSJ isn't an exception.)

    But anyway, even if 6M didn't learn 1MSJ, they were nevertheless among the strongests below XF or JMZ's class.

    &gt; Personally, I'm starting to think LDA and LDS are essentially
    &gt; the same thing...

    What do you mean by that?

    If by that you mean LDA and LDS are "powered" by the same thing, then I would agree. LDS seemed to be the weaker version of LDA, the only difference is that LDShovers don't exactly have the strength to injure other fighters. For that they need to be even stronger. (I think I can actually explain it with physics... and it has something to do w/ inertia... <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"> )

    Or do you mean LDShovers don't really look weaker than LDAttackers? I think that's how Athena and Lav see it.

    &gt; You're the one that contends H_0 is 6M = Greats. The burden of
    &gt; proof should be on you to prove that is true. We can't just
    &gt; accept that and try to prove the opposite because the evidence
    &gt; is limited and it's impossible to get more than what is already
    &gt; in the books.

    No. I'm suggesting that 6M and the Greats are roughly equal. And there's no obvious reasons to show that it's false. There's no clear evidence to show either the Greats &gt; 6M or 6M &gt; Greats.

    &gt; The Greats in that era, but not necessarily greater or equal to
    &gt; the Greats in the LOCH era.

    Right. But many Greats-supporters argue that "they are Greats in LoCH, so how can you rank them outside of top-10 in other novels. I just don't see these Greats to rank so low in any era" or a variation of it. And I state that people like Duen Yin Hing could be consider a Great in the end of DGSD after the rest have either died or became hermit-like characters mainly as an counter argument.

    &gt; Has every one of them actually displayed LDA? Or are you lumping
    &gt; some in because they've shown themselves to be equal in some other
    &gt; manner and you assume that they must have the LDA ability.

    In terms of actually injuring someone or killing someone from LD, XF has, DY has, XZ has, JMZ has, MRB has. Among those who hadn't shown the ability, WYZ didn't only because he's too injured and never fought in the novel. LCS and TSTL mainly fought only against each other, but they did fight long-distance. XYS hadn't shown but he didn't fight much either. And the Janitor Monk was the strongest of them all, but he never wanted to hurt or injure any other.

    &gt; Right. But my point was that KF, et al. seems so impressive but
    &gt; yet I see less pushback when someone mentions that SPT &gt; Greats.
    &gt; Who doesn't even have LDA! I'm hoping he at least demonstrated
    &gt; LDS, otherwise things will start getting confusing...

    No, you cannot "measure" the validity of a statement based on the amount of protest it receives. Like I said, a lot of Greats fans have the impression that they should also be one of the tops in other era simply because they're labeled "Greats". Since SPT literally dominated the entire novel, and there's a wide gap between him to the next best fighter, it makes accepting SPT &gt; Greats a lot easier, especially they can still tell themselves that the Greats could be ranked 2-6 in that novel. On the other hand, if they accept KF or JMZ &gt; Greats, they're essentially accepting that the Greats is out of the top 10 in DGSD, and they find it unacceptable because the title "Great" has too great of an impression on them.

    Another thing is that the story OtG is not as well connected to the Trilogy as DGSD is, so most of the SPT vs Greats comparisons were based on the reader's own impression, so it's somewhat less objective from the beginning anyway, so people probably have less of an urge to argue about it even if they disagree.

    There are even some readers who say that DFBB is the strongest character in the entire JY world, (even stronger than the JM), and although there're some protests and disagreements, overall this topic is actually less controversial than "KF &gt; Greats" (in terms of the number of post debating it,) but I wouldn't say this hypothesis DFBB &gt; JM is more valid than KF &gt; Great.

    Lav wrote:
    &gt; I agree with TristeCoeur. Jiumozhi when arriving at Shaolin
    &gt; behaved very politely and only when he had showed his skills
    &gt; he demanded arrogantly that Abbot Xuanci should renounce
    &gt; Shaolin's claim of the 72 Arts.

    I disagree. The main thing is he asked Shaolin to disband BEFORE he fought Xuan Du, BEFORE he fought any of the high ranking Shaolin Monks. Simply showing off in front of them would not allow him to gauge how powerful the monks are. Remember, he's the one showing off skills, not the monks. Even after the Shaolin Monks admitted that what JMZ did was more impressive, JMZ still had very little information about how strong he himself is over the monks. So there's little reason to believe the idea of disbanding the Temple came up only then, and not something pre-planned.

    &gt; Then he "suggested" that Shaolin should disband. But anyone
    &gt; with common sense would realise that this is impossible.
    &gt; Jiumozhi's victory would surely humiliate Shaolin, weaken
    &gt; its' position in the martial arts world... but with so many
    &gt; monks and laymen disciples shattered all over China, the
    &gt; Shaolin school would never cease to exist. I think
    &gt; Jiumozhi is wise enough to realise that. He merely "suggested"
    &gt; this in order to mock Shaolin.

    Impossible? Maybe to us. But JMZ actually wanted it.

    The novel said after he said that Shaolin should disband, all of the other people there realized his true intention was to earn the fame of being the one personally disbanding the sect.

    &gt; About Jiumozhi preserving his strength... Golden Lion Xie Xun
    &gt; generated his power three times as a preparation before he went
    &gt; to kill Song Yuanqiao (he later met Kongjian), I think Jiumozhi
    &gt; would also have been fully powered up before entering Shaolin
    &gt; Temple.

    Golden Lion was doing some warmup. Are you suggesting JMZ's gentle talking was also a form of warmups? If so, then there's little reason to believe that JMZ did his "gentle talking" at full force.

    &gt; The transmission of his voice, in my opinion, would not
    &gt; have weakened his inner strength.

    It might have if he was going to challenge the entire sect.

    &gt; I personally feel that he is THE MOST POWERFUL of all male
    &gt; protagonists!!! Of course, I don't have any proof as
    &gt; usual, it's only my personal opinion.

    This partly answered TigerWong's question of why not as many readers would object to the statement SPT&gt;Greats. In general, as long as you state that it's just a personal opinion and that you don't have proof, people leave you alone.

  2. #82
    Senior Member Athena's Avatar
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    Kenny: How strong are the 5 Masters of QuanZhen in your eyes? ( I do mean in the period of ROCH). Their Seven Star Union was a new created technique.
    At the time that the YuXu Cave was blocked by huges rocks, they broke out with incredible force. The door was blasted open like by explosives, DaErBa and Huo Du were flung aside for about 5 metres or so.
    Is their "Seven Star Union" a LDA action in your eyes?
    Anyway if I say that 5 Masters of QuanZhen are ~ = "Greats"
    Then wouldn't it be possible to say that what the 5 Masters could do the "Greats" could do too.
    I mean in LOCH, 7 Masters combined with the Big Dipper Formation COULD PERHAPS defeat one Great.
    Now we are talking about the combined power of 5 Masters.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

  3. #83
    Senior Member TigerWong's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"But the Greats never shown that they have such abilities even against much weaker opponents." - Kenny</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    The reason the argument: "If they had it, why didn't they show it?" weighs less strongly for me, is because, if you say that even the 1-armed nun is LDS, then by your argument that LDA/LDS is a direct by-product of inner power, then EVERY single person you deem to be above the 1-armed nun should be at least LDS. Yet not all of them displayed it in the novel (I don't think).

    Unless there was a situation where the fighter had to use LDA/LDS (like to save their life, etc.), then JY not explicitly writing about it doesn't surprise me too much.

    To go back to an earlier question posed by you: Do you see a Great taking on five 1-armed nuns?

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"This point doesn't stand when you consider XF and H7G and GJ all knew the Dragon Palm as their main technique." - Kenny</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    But wasn't XF's version of 18 Dragon Palms not exactly the same as H7G and GJ's?

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"If we keep in mind that the words that XF "wiped" were deeply carved into the stone surface," - Kenny</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Yes, if the words were deeply carved (even 1 cm, IMO), which everyone seems to agree on, smoothing it out should require sufficient force to make an impression of one's feet in the stone.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"Yes, this is my point. And I'm not sure if I've made it clear enough, it's also one of my main points that because it's so highly inner power dependent, it justifies "classification by association". The same thing cannot be said about gentle talking because it requires specific type of inner power with possibly specific training." - Kenny</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Well, I'm inclined to believe that LDS/LDA are inner power dependant but there are still several points that don't seem to make sense yet, if I were to accept the classifications you made. Also, if you say that everybody from the Greats to the 1-armed Nun is LDS, then that's a very wide range. Even if you blindly accept LDA &gt; LDS &gt; Conventional...don't know how useful that will be to classify specific fighters.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"No truly objective reasons, (which is common when comparing non-main characters.) Mainly because they were the strongests of LDS in DGSD, so it's more reasonable to say that they're in the, say, top-fifth of the entire LDS (close enough for me to say they're "roughly equal" to the Greats,) rather than the bottom-half of the entire LDS, where the 3 Shaolin Elders should belong." - Kenny</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    This is the other big problem I have with some of your classifications. You seem to be using how well the fighters rank within their respective eras to match them up with fighters from other eras. What does it matter if the Greats from LOCH are not in the Top 10? Or that the 6M come directly after the LDAs in DGSD? Unless you're saying that with each decreasing number in the chart the level of power decrease is the same, the use of rank should be irrelevant in making comparisions cross-novel. For example, the power levels between the Top 6-8 fighters in DGSD (besides JM) is slim. But if you put the 6M after that, the interval is huge (based on the example of JMZ taking all of them on). It's obvious that the power interval between adjacent fighters in a chart can be anything. So saying that the 6M coming right after Top 8 in DGSD and the Greats in LOCH coming right after Top 8 in DGSD shouldn't necessarily make them equivalent.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"No, you cannot "measure" the validity of a statement based on the amount of protest it receives." - Kenny</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    That wasn't my point. It was for curiosity's sake. I just wanted to know what SPT has done that seemed to make people not argue against SPT &gt; Greats. Because I'm already impressed and convinced that KF &gt; Greats but many people still disagree with that.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"No. I'm suggesting that 6M and the Greats are roughly equal. And there's no obvious reasons to show that it's false. There's no clear evidence to show either the Greats &gt; 6M or 6M &gt; Greats." - Kenny</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Well, I'm suggesting that Greats &gt; 6M, and theres no obvious reasons to show that it's false. Or that Mr.X is gay, and theres no obvious reason to show that's false. <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">

    Or that YD &gt; 6M because it was said that YD had reached the highest level of 1YF, and the 6M hadn't (this statement is subject to interpretation, of course). And theres no clear evidence that 6M &gt;= YD.

    Regardless, I was interested in knowing what evidence in the novel leads you to believe that 6M = Greats in the first place (which you've talked about).

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"Personally, I'm starting to think LDA and LDS are essentially the same thing" - TigerWong

    "What do you mean by that?" - Kenny</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I mean that both are probably powered by inner-strength. Not that it all makes sense to me yet (6MSJ being an exception?..could the rest be exceptions as well?..whose to say which LDA is just inner-power and which comes from technique?), but I'm willing to accept it because the majority of evidence that points towards it seem more convincing to me.

    I'm resigned to the fact that not everything will make sense and fit in perfectly with each other. After all, this is fiction, and not reality. So logic only goes so far...there will probably be some contradictions. It's up to each individual to decide which arguments hold more weight with them.

    I also think that the difference between LDA and LDS seem to largely be a matter of relativity (based on the opponent's strength).

    <font size="1">[ January 07, 2003: Message edited by: TigerWong ]</font>

  4. #84
    Senior Member Athena's Avatar
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    I just like to go back to JiuMo Zhi and the "gentle talking" part.
    Kenny, you seem to believe that "gentle talking" will cost internal strength, so JiuMo Zhi wouldn't have put all that much power into it.
    But using internal energy to power up your voice does take a lot energy to do so. But will not cost one's internal strenght.

    Example: I, myself had to speak in front of a large public (varying from 30 till 60 people) many times. In auditoriums, class-rooms, etc.
    Anyway I have to make sure that my voice will travel through the entire class-room, auditorium and everyone can hear me loud and clearly. I have to raise my voice, use good breathing and what I've learnt in courses like Public Speaking and Logopaedics (speech therapy). I have to channel my breathing suffienctly and sort of powering up. But I don't feel exhausted, tired after I'm done talking.

    My point is that if JiuMo Zhi used a high level of his internal energy to generate gentle talking it doesn't affect his internal strength. If a layman like myself can speak loud and clearly without losing energy or feeling tired for about 50 till 60 minutes, a powerful martial arts expert like JiuMo Zhi will certainly not be affected. It was not like he was trying to blast open the doors of the ShaoLin Monastery with 100% of his internal power. That would have cost him energy but using a large amount of internal strength to generate your voice doesn't. If that was the case I would be out of breath after a few minutes.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

  5. #85
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    Athena wrote:
    &gt; Kenny: How strong are the 5 Masters of QuanZhen in your eyes?

    You mean the 5 of them together plus the effect of the formation?

    &gt; ( I do mean in the period of ROCH). Their Seven Star Union
    &gt; was a new created technique.

    It's more of a formation then a technique.And this formation gave them much power, (raw power, strength... etc.,) but in judging how good a formation is, "power" shouldn't be the only thing we should consider, and there are other questions we have to look into.How smoothly can they transpose from one position to another?Can they maintain this strength going from location to another, or do they have to almost stand still for this "formation" to be effective?How quickly can the formation move while maintaining this "power", if they can move at all?

    Since this formation was only used in the novel two or three times, we don't have enough info to judge.

    &gt; At the time that the YuXu Cave was blocked by huges rocks,
    &gt; they broke out with incredible force. The door was
    &gt; blasted open like by explosives, DaErBa and Huo Du were
    &gt; flung aside for about 5 metres or so.

    Those were two separate attacks.

    The door was blocked by rocks, and the taoists were trapped inside.The first attack was on the door, blew the door open and sent the rocks flying.Then DEB and HD went up to them to stop them from coming out, and the 5 taoists tried their attack again and threw DEB and HD away.DEB and HD were not really injured (except for possibly some cuts and bruises.)

    &gt; Is their "Seven Star Union" a LDA action in your eyes?

    No.Because there's some physical contacts.

    &gt; Anyway if I say that 5 Masters of QuanZhen are ~ = "Greats"

    Inner power wise, maybe.I don't see them defeating any one of the Greats w/ this formation.

    &gt; Then wouldn't it be possible to say that what the 5
    &gt; Masters could do the "Greats" could do too.
    &gt; I mean in LOCH, 7 Masters combined with the Big Dipper
    &gt; Formation COULD PERHAPS defeat one Great.
    &gt; Now we are talking about the combined power of 5 Masters.

    For now, I'm not going to talk about anything else, just inner power.In LoCH, the 7 masters together were roughly equal to one Great, (and I think most readers would agree w/ me on this...)Does it mean that 5 masters 20 years later would be weaker than the Greats inner-power wise?Not necessarily.Because you have 5 people improving versus just 1 from a Great.So together they might improve faster than a Great by himself.

    Anyway, I don't consider this "formation" a LDA, since there were clearly some physical contacts, especially against DEB & HD.

    &gt; Example: I, myself had to speak in front of a large
    &gt; public (varying from 30 till 60 people) many times. In
    &gt; auditoriums, class-rooms, etc.Anyway I have to make
    &gt; sure that my voice will travel through the entire
    &gt; class-room, auditorium and everyone can hear me loud
    &gt; and clearly. I have to raise my voice, use good breathing
    &gt; and what I've learnt in courses like Public Speaking and
    &gt; Logopaedics (speech therapy). I have to channel my breathing
    &gt; suffienctly and sort of powering up.But I don't feel
    &gt; exhausted, tired after I'm done talking.

    I'm not sure talking (loudly) in real life use the same type of "energy" as we do in running, jumping, etc.And I don't think talking loudly before a b-ball game would make M. Jordan play less effectively, either.

    But in the novel, we know that both gentle talking and fighting are backed by mostly the same "energy", and that's inner power.

    &gt; My point is that if JiuMo Zhi used a high level of his
    &gt; internal energy to generate gentle talking it doesn't
    &gt; affect his internal strength.

    As long as he had to use his internal energy for a task, he's consuming internal energy.

    &gt; If a layman like myself
    &gt; can speak loud and clearly without losing energy or
    &gt; feeling tired for about 50 till 60 minutes, a powerful
    &gt; martial arts expert like JiuMo Zhi will certainly not
    &gt; be affected.

    A "layman" speaker isn't speaking from something like a mile away.Nor is he using his internal energy either.

    &gt; It was not like he was trying to blast
    &gt; open the doors of the ShaoLin Monastery with 100% of
    &gt; his internal power. That would have cost him energy but
    &gt; using a large amount of internal strength to generate
    &gt; your voice doesn't.

    This is how sometimes real-life example doesn't correspond to in-novel events.In real life, I don't think speaking loudly is anywhere near as strenuous as most physical tasks, but in real life, we can speak from a mile away either.And in the novel, speaking from far away requires and consumes inner power.

    When you can show me how to speak from a mile away w/o using inner power, I'll believe gentle talking didn't effect JMZ's energy level. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

    &gt; The reason the argument: "If they had it, why didn't
    &gt; they show it?"

    I think you misunderstood this argument somewhat.People have doubts about the Greats' LDA-abilities not becausethey didn't show LDA in only one or two fights, it's because of all the fights they were involved in (what, some 30, 40 fights?) none of the Greats had shown any LDA-abilities at all.

    It's understandable if Greats were just minor characters and they only appeared once in the novel, and that they didn't display any LDA abilities... readers (me included) would probably give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they could...But they aren't minor characters!They appeared in most of chapters in LoCH/RoCH and were involved in every major fight.

    &gt; weighs less strongly for me, is because,
    &gt; if you say that even the 1-armed nun is LDS, then by
    &gt; your argument that LDA/LDS is a direct by-product of
    &gt; inner power, then EVERY single person you deem to be
    &gt; above the 1-armed nun should be at least LDS.

    And I have not contradicted or violated that, because if a strong fighter is injured (weakened), or if a strong fighter is only a minor character who only appeared once or twice and didn't fight much, I wouldn't necessarily classify him as conventional just because he didn't have a chance to show his true strength.

    The Greats are different.They had plenty of oppurtunities to show LDA, if they had it.

    &gt; Yet not
    &gt; all of them displayed it in the novel (I don't think).

    Because many of those who I consider stronger than the One-armed Nun were just minor characters.

    If they only appeared in just one or scenes, saying "maybe they have it, they just didn't show it" would still be reasonable as long as they can show that they're strong through other means.But the Greats, collectively, appeared in... umm... how many fights? 30, 40, 50?

    &gt; Unless there was a situation where the fighter had to
    &gt; use LDA/LDS (like to save their life, etc.), then JY not
    &gt; explicitly writing about it doesn't surprise me too much.

    It can very well surprise you if see the large number of fights the Greats were involved in... <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

    &gt; Do you see a Great taking on five 1-armed nuns?

    Maybe, maybe not.I think the One-armed Nun's skills can be quite respectable in Trilogy's time.Not as good as the Greats, of course, but can be as good as Siu Seung Chi, for example.

    &gt; But wasn't XF's version of 18 Dragon Palms not exactly the same as H7G and GJ's?

    Not identical, but they have the common characteristic of being the most overpowering/aggressive palm-type technique.So for this discussion's purpose, (note that it started when Athena said that XF could do LDA mainly because of the overpowering/aggressive nature of his technique,) they can be considered the same.

    And JY never stated explicitly that they're different, or how different they are...It's just that XF died before he passed it on to another person, and the technique was later re-invented, and it's common sense that tells us the re-invented version shouldn't be identical to the original.

    &gt; Well, I'm inclined to believe that LDS/LDA are inner power
    &gt; dependant but there are still several points that don't
    &gt; seem to make sense yet, if I were to accept the classifications
    &gt; you made. Also, if you say that everybody from the Greats
    &gt; to the 1-armed Nun is LDS, then that's a very wide range.

    Depends on how you define "wide".LDS is probably just top 10-20 % of all JY characters, (not that I actually sit down and count the total number of characters.)

    &gt; Unless you're
    &gt; saying that with each decreasing number in the chart the
    &gt; level of power decrease is the same, the use of rank
    &gt; should be irrelevant in making comparisions cross-novel.

    But I also stated the 6M could attack from roughly the same distance away as YD had shown.And I said in my last message that this fact plus the fact that they were the strongest below XF's class make it reasonable to assume that they're roughly equal to the Greats.Anyone of these two facts doesn't look very strong, but put them together I think it's more likely for 6M ~= Greats rather than 6M &gt; Greats or Greats &gt; 6M.

    &gt; Well, I'm suggesting that Greats &gt; 6M, and theres no obvious
    &gt; reasons to show that it's false.

    But for discussion's sake, let me turn the question back to you. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">If you're suggesting the Greats &gt; 6M, what's your initial reasons for that.Like me for example, I'm suggesting 6M ~= Greats because their attacks seemed to reach the approminately same distance, and that 6M were among the strongest outside of LDA, so that gave me an initial hypothesis to work with. And from there I try to prove the opposite.

    &gt; Or that YD &gt; 6M because it was said that YD had reached the
    &gt; highest level of 1YF, and the 6M hadn't (this statement is
    &gt; subject to interpretation, of course).

    Maybe I should describe this in more details.

    In DGSD, YYFinger had a level system.The smaller the level number, the stronger.Five of the 6M reached level 4, (by associations only, since one said he's at level 4, and the other 4 were his equal.)We don't know about what level the last (and the eldest and strongest) monk was in, but many readers believe him to be at least in level 3, since he's obviously much stronger than the rest.We don't know anything about how strong lvl 1 is, but in my opinion, I would think that only those who have enough inner power to learn all 6 swords to have reached level 1.

    In RoCH, JY described YD as (in Canto) DunFungChoGik.Which literally means have reached the peak and extreme, but it is often used to describe great fighters in general, (and I argue that "great" is dependent on the era.)JY never stated that YD reached "level 1" specifically, nor did he ever say there was still a level system in LoCH/RoCH anymore.

  6. #86
    Senior Member Athena's Avatar
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    Kenny: Does that mean when Yang Guo used his roar to force YingGu out his internal power diminished. He seemed as strong as before his roar no clues by Jing Yong to proof otherwise.
    - The Seven Star Union was a technique not a formation according to the novel. The Big Dipper Formation was.
    However when they aimed this stance toward Ni MoXing there wasn't physical contact.
    But I agree when they warded off DaErBa and Huo Du there was physical contact.
    - When you say that "Great" = ~ 6 Monks
    And Greats = ~ Zhang WuJi and Zhang SanFeng.
    So Zhang SanFeng = ~ 6 Monks ??!!??
    I find that hard to swallow, the founder of the WuDang School is "only" in the same category as the monks of the Celestial Dragon Temple in DGSD. However there is again no proof to support my opinion.
    Back to LDA and LDS. We have seen Xiao Feng perform this so-called LDA against for example Yun ZhongHe and Ding ChunQiu. However only Yun was injured and Ding was pushed away.
    The fights involving the "Greats" and Guo Jing, Yang Guo, JinLun FaWang, Qiu QianRen, Zhou BoTong, Zhang WuJi and Zhang SanFeng were many, but none of the fights match the desciption Jin Yong gave to Xiao Feng v.s. Ding and Yun.
    Also do we know the distance between Yun ZhongHe and Xiao? We don't know.
    But in some cases there was when one of the aboved named LOCH trilogy top used his energy to push other lower ranking martial artists away.
    Examples:
    1)when OuYang Feng and Guo Jing were on the raft and OuYang pushed his energy towards the sea and Guo Jing was in the water and pushed back. The energies collided resulting Guo fainting. However we don't know the distance between the 2 men. It must be with in those 16 metres (5 zhang).
    2) When OuYang Feng leapt into the water cave. Before he entered he used his stance energy to disperse to waterfall.
    How many metres in between OuYang and waterfall? Unknown
    3) Guo Jing and OuYang Feng battling in the watercave, no physical contact. But distance again between Guo and OuYang is unknown.
    4) OuYang Feng ambushing QuanZhen master Tan ChuDuan. No physical contact between them but the distance again remains unknown. The second ambush was towards Huang YaoShi but Mei ChaoFeng intervened and accepted that blow. Jin Yong didn't write the distance between OuYang and Huang.
    5) When OuYang captured Guo Jing in the stone house Qiu QianRen and Zhou BoTong also accidentally entered that same house. All of a sudden all 4 of them directed their palm energy towards 1 rock
    causing that rock to land in the middle of the house.
    Distance between 4 experts and rock is unknown.
    6)(ROCH) Guo Jing entering the ChongYang Shrine, 2 men attacked Guo Jing Guo raised his palms and 2 bursts of energy forcing them back to the wall and vomitting blood. (Sounds like LDA to me). However distance remains a ?
    7) Yang Guo seeing Ke ZhenE again in the Iron Spear Temple. Sha TongTian, Pang LianHu, Hou TongHai and LingJi attacked Yang. Yang Guo's palm send them flying towards the statue. (His intentions were not to kill them before he found out what was going here). Distance between him and those 4 is unknown.
    8) Yang Guo and Huang YaoShi competing with Xiao XiangZi, Yin KeXi and an unknown expert. The 2 of them were pushing them back and forth. Could either of them killed them with their energy, I don't know. But what was the distance between Y and H. And Y/H and 3 men? We don't know, Jin Yong didn't write it out down.
    9) HSDS Zhang SanFeng rescueing Zhou ZhiRuo and Chang YuChun. Zhang leapt from his boat to their boat and used his palm energy to send to Tibetan monks flying for about 5 metres before landing in water. (Was his intention to kill them, probably not he was too benevolent to kill). But what was Zhang's distance between himself and those 2 monks is unknown again.
    10) Zhang WuJi competing palm energy with A Er (Number 2) in The Purple Heaven Shrine on WuDang. In the end Zhang WuJi heavily injured A Er. But what was Zhang's distance between himself and A Er? We don't know either.
    11) Master DuNan of ShaoLin fighting with Yang Xiao and Yin TianZheng. DuNan's energy pushed Yin TianZheng away for about 5 metres and they were still competing. The entire battle between Ming Cult and ShaoLin ended in a draw, unfortunately Yin died the battle was one of the factors that lead to his death.

    In some of the examples we see that the LOCH trilogy top did display a form of using energy to travel and trying to injure other opponents. However sometimes in for examples 7 and 9, Yang wasn't sure what was going on and didn't take the lives of those 4. Zhang was a benevolent old Taoist sage who didn't like to kill. Hence the 2 Tibetan monks lived.

    Like I wrote before in my first post on this topic. Jin Yong spent a lot of time and energy on DGSD, the desciptions, imagery on battles, fights were much more detailed and fantastic than the LOCH trilogy.
    If we take a closer look is there really a great difference in what the top experts in the trilogy could do and what the top (exception of Old Nameless monk and for some people the 3 martial arts brother and sisters of the XiaoYao School) of DGSD could perform.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

  7. #87
    Senior Member TigerWong's Avatar
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    Kenny: These long posts must be draining for you. You don't even care to differentiate who you're replying to anymore. <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"People have doubts about the Greats' LDA-abilities not becausethey didn't show LDA in only one or two fights, it's because of all the fights they were involved in (what, some 30, 40 fights?) none of the Greats had shown any LDA-abilities at all."</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Perhaps it has something to do with the Strength of Opponent Factor? If their opponents were very strong, even an LDA attack won't manifest itself as LDA. If you take away their fights with strong opponents, would the remaining battles be a more reasonable number to not show LDA even if they had it?

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"It's just that XF died before he passed it on to another person, and the technique was later re-invented, and it's common sense that tells us the re-invented version shouldn't be identical to the original."</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Did you mean to say "should" be identical? There could be specialized techniques that might be lost (i.e. the ability to project LDA), but it's a moot point of one accepts that LDA is a direct by-product of inner power.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"Depends on how you define "wide".LDS is probably just top 10-20 % of all JY characters, (not that I actually sit down and count the total number of characters.)"</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Wide implying that theres a wide range of power between the upper level and lower level LDS fighters. You say that you can neither agree nor disagree with whether the Greats could take on five 1-armed nuns. But you seem to be positive that the Greats can't take on five 6M. If the range is so wide, you can't say two fighters are about the same just because they both show the LDS ability. (But I understand you had other reasons, of course..)

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"But I also stated the 6M could attack from roughly the same distance away as YD had shown."</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Again, the Strength of Opponent Factor may play a part... Perhaps YD's opponent had enough inner power to resist being pushed farther. Whose to say the 6M could have pushed GLFW even 5 feet? Or that YD couldn't have shoved the same opponent (that the 6M shoved at 10 feet) up to 30 feet away. Just taking the absolute distance as a gauge ignores the Strength of Opponent Factor.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"..plus the fact that they were the strongest below XF's class make it reasonable to assume that they're roughly equal to the Greats."</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I've stated the reasons why I think theres a flaw in the use of relative rank without any direct correlation, as strong evidence.

    But heres another example...

    I haven't followed basketball in so long, so forgive my ignorance <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">... but lets say we place the Bulls at the top of each division (Central, Western, etc.) The team that comes next after the Bulls in the Central Division isn't necessarily equivalent to the team that comes next after the Bulls in the Western Division. They don't even have to be close. Certain Divisions have been known to be stronger.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"Like me for example, I'm suggesting 6M ~= Greats because their attacks seemed to reach the approminately same distance, and that 6M were among the strongest outside of LDA, so that gave me an initial hypothesis to work with. And from there I try to prove the opposite."</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    And I tried to prove the opposite by coming up with a reason why absolute distance and the use of rank may not be very strong reasons. Also, I can't imagine JMZ taking on all five Greats! <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

    But you're right. I can't disprove it. However, if my opinion is that the 6M ~= 3 HSDS Shaolin Elders, I don't think you can disprove it either.

    Having said all that..

    Although I think 6M ~= 3 Shaolin Elders seems like a more reasonable assumption IMO, it still seems to show that KF, et al. are more powerful than the Greats!

    Can you imagine ZWJ taking on five Shaolin Elders (like JMZ taking on five 6M)?

    Can you imagine ZWJ destroying even three Shaolin Elders with the same EASE KF showed in beating Ding Chun Chau, MoYung Fu, and IronHead?

    Unless you demote the 6M, Ding Chun Chau, MoYung Fu, and IronHead to very unseemly levels...this should already be good reason to say that KF &gt; Greats.

    Don't ya think? <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

    PLUS you have KF making impressions on stone without the help of chains.

    PLUS you have LDA. Even if one believes LDA is an Art and not a gauge of inner power, it still gives KF an advantage in battle over the Greats...Unless you think KF's inner power &lt; Greats inner power, or that the Greats also have LDA.

    But maybe LDA is something Special after all... Something you can only achieve after reaching a certain high threshold of inner power, rather than a form of LDS that is relative to the strength of the opponent...

    In the fight between KF and MYB, it was said that MYB still felt pain. Why didn't he just get shoved back? (Did GLFW feel pain when YD pushed him?) Is it because KF actually had higher inner power than MYB? Or is LDA a type of thing that always imparts damage (damage defined as causing pain and not just shoving)? Could MYB's Dau Jeun Tsing Yee have been the only thing that prevented him from receiving greater damage?

    And finally, from a purely "gut instinct" standpoint...the Test of Cowardice (the only test that counts <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0">). If a maniacal, ultra-powerful kung fu villain was chasing you, who would you rather have be the only person standing between you and the Arch-Villain?...

    ..And protecting your sorry a** from certain death.

    KF or a Great?

    I know what my answer would be! (The Janitor Monk <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">)

    <font size="1">[ January 07, 2003: Message edited by: TigerWong ]</font>

  8. #88
    Senior Member TristeCoeur's Avatar
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    Can you imagine ZWJ destroying even three Shaolin Elders with the same EASE KF showed in beating Ding Chun Chau, MoYung Fu, and IronHead?

    Read the novel again, mate. XF thought that he would be defeated if he fought those guys. After 3 stances or so he stood back and asked for some alcohol <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0"> Then Duan Yu and Xu Zhu jumped out. Xu Zhu then helped him to fight Ding. XF then fought MoYung and IronHead but he couldn't defeat them. In fact if they kept fighting another half an hour (as writen clearly in the novel) XF would be defeated. Luckily, Duan Yu intervened and later used 6 Divine Swords to defeat MoYung for XF.
    • Discussion: the confusion of one person multiplied by the number present.
    • Discussion Forum: the place where everybody posts, nobody reads and everybody disagrees later on.

  9. #89
    Senior Member TigerWong's Avatar
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    Hard to read it again, when I haven't read it the first time. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

    But I think I will check it out. What chapter is it in?

    My other points still stand though.

  10. #90
    Senior Member Laviathan's Avatar
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    *SIGH* Just had my exam, and I think I passed it, next one is Friday. So I have a little time to get back into this discussion.

    Kenny, you wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> It stated that he had finished learning 9Yang. The key words are "j", the words that Jin Yong used to describe ZWJ AFTER he burst out of the bag. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    But later on you wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> In RoCH, JY described YD as (in Canto) DunFungChoGik.Which literally means have reached the peak and extreme, but it is often used to describe great fighters in general, (and I argue that "great" is dependent on the era.) </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    In the case of Zhang Wuji, Jin Yong wrote Dagong Gaocheng "completed" while Jueyuan was "Dacheng"(finished), you then concluded that their internal power must be the same. In the case of Yiyang Finger, Jin Yong claerly wrote that Yideng reached the ultimate peak, while Abbot Benyin confessed that his level of Yiyang Finger has only reached Class 4 and that he couldn't even imagine Class 1. Now, I'm not saying that you're using double standards but if we really have to be "by tha book", isn't it quite safe to assume that Yideng's level of Yiyang Finger is higher than the Six Monks of Tianlong Temple?

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> Not identical, but they have the common characteristic of being the most overpowering/aggressive palm-type technique.So for this discussion's purpose, (note that it started when Athena said that XF could do LDA mainly because of the overpowering/aggressive nature of his technique,) they can be considered the same. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Yes, the techniques and theory are the same but the type of energy and way of execution are different. Hong Qigong was much older than Xiao Feng when he appeared in LOCH and surely he can't perform the palm techniques as powerful as Xiao Feng who was in his prime. Guo Jing on the other hand learned many Taoist styles like Quanzhen Neigong, Art of Nine Yin, Empty Fists... his use of internal power has become more soft.

    郭靖此时所施展的正是武林绝学「降龙十八掌」。&#27 861;王等三人紧紧围住,心想他内
    力便再深厚,掌力如此凌厉,必难持久。岂知郭靖&#36 817;二十年来勤练「九阴真经」,初时
    真力还不显露,数十招後,降龙十八掌的劲力忽强&#24 573;弱,忽吞忽吐,从至刚之中竟生出
    至柔的妙用,那已是洪七公当年所领悟不到的神功&#65 292;以此抵挡三大高手的兵刃,非但丝
    毫不落下风,而且乘隙反扑,越斗越是挥酒自如。

    "Guo Jing is now using the superb martial art of Eighteen Dragon Subdueing Palms. The Golden Wheel Monk and the other two warriors have now surrounded him, thinking: no matter how abundant one's internal energy is, such display of aggressive palm power cannot last long. But they are not aware of the fact that Guo Jing has been training the Art of Nine Yin diligently the last twenty years, at first his true power does not reveal itself, but after tens of strokes, the power of Eighteen Dragon Subdueing Palms flows back and forth from strong to weak, sometimes releasing and sometimes absorbing... from the level of extreme hardness it has produced ultimate softness, this is the Divine Mastery which Hong Qigong himself could not conceive in the past. In using this technique to ward off the three experts' weapons, the opponents did not gain the upper-hand, on the contrary, Guo Jing saw chance to counter-attack. As the fight progresses, Guo Jing's moves become more elegant and effortless."

    那边厢萧峰独斗慕容复、游坦之二人,最初十招颇&#21 344;上风,但到十余招后,只觉游坦
    之每一拳击出、每一掌拍来,都是满含阴寒之气。&#33 831;峰以全力和慕容复相拚之际,游坦之
    再向他出招,不由得寒气袭体,大为难当。...
    但他天生神武,处境越不利,体内潜在勇力越是发&#30 343;奋扬,将天
    下阳刚第一的降龙十八掌一掌掌发出,竟使慕容复&# 21644;游坦之无法近身,而游坦之的冰
    蚕寒毒便也不致侵袭到他身上。但萧峰如此发掌,&#20 869;力消耗着实不小,到后来掌力势非减
    弱不可。

    On the other side Xiao Feng singlehandedly took on Murong Fu and You Tanzhi. The first ten strokes Xiao Feng still had the upper-hand, but after that he noticed every punch and strike of You Tanzhi was filled with Frost Energy. When Xiao Feng uses his full power to fight Murong Fu, You Tanzhi would attack him and his body had to endure a freezing cold... But he is a born warrior, the more dangerous a situation is, the more his couragous potential boils. He uses every palm technique of the Ultimate Yang Art of the world, Eighteen Dragon Subdueing Palms, in which it is impossible for Murong Fu and You Tanzhi to even get near him. This way You Tanzhi's Ice Cocoon Poison cannot harm him. But by using his palm power in such way, he loses quite some energy and in the end his palm power will surely diminish."

    Even Duan Yu saw it:
    大哥以
    一敌二,虽然神威凛凛,但见他每一掌都是打得狂&#39 118;呼啸,飞沙走石,只怕难以持久,
    "Brother fights alone against two opponents and, despite his heroic spirit, each strike is executed with such awesome force, I'm afraid this cannot last very long."

    So, the way of fighting of Guo Jing compared to that of Xiao Feng is actually completely different. Xiao Feng fights aggressive, while Guo Jing's style is more sophisticated. From an martial artist' point of view, Guo Jing's style can be considered better. But that doesn't mean that in actual combat Guo Jing can defeat Xiao Feng. In the Mongolian camp Guo Jing himself thought that eventually he might lose. But my point is: although the system of techniques is the same, the way of performance depends solely on the practitioner. Xiao Feng and Guo Jing have totally different martial arts backgrounds, and totally different characters. But the thing is: Guo Jing can fight the Xiao Feng way if he had to, but it would be very difficult for Xiao Feng to fight like Guo Jing.

    And about Yideng: In his fight with Golden Wheel Monk it was obvious that Yideng's strokes would have been fatal to Golden Wheel Monk if he was struck. The distance between them was in the end a little more than 3 meters, so within this erea his strokes still have effect against an opponent like Golden Wheel Monk. But in DGSD, when Duan Yu fought Murong Fu at the Shaolin Temple, the distance between them was also a little more than 3 meters. (丈&#35768 <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0"> At this distance, Duan Yu could also harm Murong Fu. The only difference is that Golden Wheel Monk could counterattack while Murong Fu couldn't. Duan Yu is maybe the best example of LDA, yet, his range is the same as that of Yideng, who is categorized in the LDS Category. While Xiao Feng's palm strokes could reach a further distance. I believe that the reason for this is that it is more difficult to channel finger power than palm power. This is the same in real life. That also explains why Huang Yaoshi could not attack from long distance without pebbles.

    About Nun Jiunan: in DOMD, the Shaolin Monk Dengguan/Chengguan (there are two ways to pronounce his name) performed something which resembles LDS in Chapter 22:

    观屈指弹出,嗤的一声,一股劲气激射出去,地下&#19 968;张落叶飘了起来。

    About the Five Masters of Quanzhen: at the Battle of Chongyang Shrine, the Five Masters hit Xiaolongnu with their Seven Star Union while at the same time Golden Wheel Monk hit her with his wheel. After the impact Xiaolongnu still stood, so we can say that the power of both strikes was roughly equal.

    To Athena:

    Another example of long distance attack would be HSDS: Chapter 9. Song Yuanqiao wanted the three leaders of the Armed Escort Agencies to leave. His sleave created a strong wind which made the teacups fly from one table to another without spilling any tea. At the same time the three leaders Qi, Yun and Gong felt a soft but strong power and realised that Song would only have to use his other sleave and the combined power would have killed them.

    OK, that's it for today, have to study for Friday. BYEBYE!
    A A k k A d @ H

  11. #91
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    Athena wrote:
    &gt; Does that mean when Yang Guo used his roar to force
    &gt; YingGu out his internal power diminished.

    Yes. How much? I wouldn't know. But the feat requires internal energy, so he certainly wouldn't have the same energy level after roaring.

    &gt; He seemed
    &gt; as strong as before his roar no clues by Jing Yong
    &gt; to proof otherwise.

    Because he didn't have tough fights immediately afterward, allowing him time to replenish his inner power.

    And his next fight, (against ZBT,) wasn't as tough as trying to disband Shaolin by yourself.

    &gt; The Seven Star Union was a technique not a formation
    &gt; according to the novel.

    If the "technique" requires multiple fighters, it's effectively a formation, regardless of how it's labeled in the book.

    &gt; However when they aimed this stance toward Ni MoXing
    &gt; there wasn't physical contact.

    No. It didn't explicitly mentioned physical contact, nor did it say no physical contact. The first hit aimed at XLN, she dodged and ended up hitting NMX, who's standing behind her. The second hit aimed at NMX, this time he dodged and it ended up hitting XLN, who's standing behind him.

    And NMX wasn't injured!

    XLN was injured, but the Golden Wheel Monk had a lot to do w/ it.

    &gt; I find that hard to swallow, the founder of the WuDang
    &gt; School is "only" in the same category as the monks of the
    &gt; Celestial Dragon Temple in DGSD.

    From my personal experience, I found that most of those who believe the Greats &gt; XF mainly because of the reputation the Greats had. And that they also found it hard to swallow if the Greats would be ranked outside the top-10 in another novel.

    &gt; Back to LDA and LDS. We have seen Xiao Feng perform
    &gt; this so-called LDA against for example Yun ZhongHe and
    &gt; Ding ChunQiu. However only Yun was injured and Ding
    &gt; was pushed away.

    But Ding was so convinced that his arm would break if he didn't both jump back and use two arms to block the attack. Assuming his judgement was correct, we know for a fact that XF could injure another fighter in the class of Ding from long-distance.

    &gt; Also do we know the distance between Yun ZhongHe and Xiao? We don't know.

    No, not the exact number, but we can estimate. There were 200-300 fighters inside the room, XF was sort of in the middle of the room, surrounded by them. YZH was near the edge of the room, about to get away. So to use a rough estimate, perhaps he was 20-30 ft from Yun?

    &gt; when OuYang Feng and Guo Jing were on the raft and
    &gt; OuYang pushed his energy towards the sea and Guo Jing
    &gt; was in the water and pushed back. The energies
    &gt; collided resulting Guo fainting. However we don't
    &gt; know the distance between the 2 men. It must be
    &gt; with in those 16 metres (5 zhang).

    If I'm not mistaken, water carries momentum much better than air does. That's why LDA was so much harder.

    &gt; When OuYang Feng leapt into the water cave. Before
    &gt; he entered he used his stance energy to disperse to
    &gt; waterfall. How many metres in between OuYang and
    &gt; waterfall? Unknown

    Nor did it say it was done w/o physical contact.

    &gt; Guo Jing and OuYang Feng battling in the watercave,
    &gt; no physical contact. But distance again between Guo
    &gt; and OuYang is unknown.

    Just because GJ was able to dodge, (hence, no contact,) doesn't make OYF's attacks LDA.

    &gt; OuYang Feng ambushing QuanZhen master Tan ChuDuan.
    &gt; No physical contact between them but the distance
    &gt; again remains unknown.

    Huh? It book said TCD felt a strong force hitting him from behind. It doesn't mean there was no physical contact!

    &gt; The second ambush was towards Huang YaoShi but Mei
    &gt; ChaoFeng intervened and accepted that blow. Jin Yong
    &gt; didn't write the distance between OuYang and Huang.

    Same case. It didn't say there was no physical contact.

    &gt; When OuYang captured Guo Jing in the stone house Qiu
    &gt; QianRen and Zhou BoTong also accidentally entered
    &gt; that same house. All of a sudden all 4 of them directed
    &gt; their palm energy towards 1 rock causing that rock to
    &gt; land in the middle of the house.

    The combined force of 3 Great-calibre fighters plus GJ who was approaching their strength?

    &gt; Guo Jing entering the ChongYang Shrine, 2 men attacked
    &gt; Guo Jing Guo raised his palms and 2 bursts of energy
    &gt; forcing them back to the wall and vomitting blood.

    Because they fell back a couple steps and hit the wall. Try throwig a ping pong ball as hard as you can. If you're on a open field, the ball will probably land 50 metre from you, but it won't break, but if there's a wall just 5 ft in front of you, and if the ball hits the wall, the ball might break, (depending on how strong you are.)

    &gt; Yang Guo's palm send them flying towards the statue.

    Just LDS.

    &gt; The 2 of them
    &gt; were pushing them back and forth.

    There were some physical contacts.

    &gt; HSDS Zhang SanFeng rescueing Zhou ZhiRuo and Chang
    &gt; YuChun. Zhang leapt from his boat to their boat and
    &gt; used his palm energy to send to Tibetan monks flying
    &gt; for about 5 metres before landing in water.

    No. The book said he swung his arm at the monks and the monks dropped into the water.

    You seemed to think that just because JY didn't explicitly emphasize that two fighters have touched each other, then it's a case of "no physical contact."

    The way JY writes is similar to this:
    "Fighter A swings his arm and sends Fighter B flying. He then turns around and punches at Fighter C. Fighter C feels the most tremendous force he has ever experienced, and he is sent flying throw the window, lands on a stone floor and dies."

    And he doesn't write like this:
    "Fighter A swings his arm and sends Fighter B flying. There's physical contact there. He then turns around and punches at Fighter C. Physical contact here, too. Fighter C feels the most tremendous force he has ever experienced, and he is sent flying throw the window, lands on a stone floor and dies."

    &gt; Zhang WuJi competing palm energy with A Er (Number 2)
    &gt; in The Purple Heaven Shrine on WuDang. In the end
    &gt; Zhang WuJi heavily injured A Er. But what was Zhang's
    &gt; distance between himself and A Er? We don't know either.

    Again, you're interpreting every scene that wasn't explicitly mentioned as "w/ physical contact" as "no physical contact".

    &gt; Master DuNan of ShaoLin fighting with Yang Xiao and Yin TianZheng. DuNan's energy pushed Yin TianZheng
    &gt; away for about 5 metres and they were still competing.

    Yes, this is why I listed the three Shaolin Elders as LDS.

    &gt; The entire battle between Ming Cult and ShaoLin ended in
    &gt; a draw, unfortunately Yin died the battle was one of the
    &gt; factors that lead to his death.

    No. It's mainly due to his old age and exhaustion.

    Most of these examples are not LDA. You just interpreted them to be LDA whenever JY didn't explicitly write down "there's physical contact there."

    TigerWong wrote:
    &gt; Kenny: These long posts must be draining for you. You don't
    &gt; even care to differentiate who you're replying to anymore.

    Really? I must have forgotten in my last post... <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">

    And you bet I'm getting really tired... The first couple long posts were okay, but after a week or so I became exhausted... And a new semester just started too...

    &gt; Perhaps it has something to do with the Strength of
    &gt; Opponent Factor? If their opponents were very strong,
    &gt; even an LDA attack won't manifest itself as LDA. If
    &gt; you take away their fights with strong opponents, would
    &gt; the remaining battles be a more reasonable number to
    &gt; not show LDA even if they had it?

    There were probably still 10+ fight scenes where the Greats were fighting weaker opponents, but still, no display of LDA.

    Also, in DGSD, many of the LDAttackers start throwing punches towards their opponents (no matter how strong the opponents are...) even when they're 30 feet apart. You don't see the Greats trying that in LoCH/RoCH.

    &gt; Did you mean to say "should" be identical?

    No. I meant "shouldn't" be identical. If something is lost and then re-invented, it shouldn't be identical, even though the main characteristics should be the same.

    Like, I'm writing this reply... what if my computer crashed and I didn't save it? I'll have to re-type it, and it wouldn't be identical to my original reply, but the main idea, the things that I want to say, would be the same.

    &gt; I haven't followed basketball in so long, so forgive my
    &gt; ignorance

    Neither have I, actually...

    &gt; but lets say we place the Bulls at the top of
    &gt; each division (Central, Western, etc.) The team that
    &gt; comes next after the Bulls in the Central Division
    &gt; isn't necessarily equivalent to the team that comes
    &gt; next after the Bulls in the Western Division.

    That's because of a small sample, because there are only 7 or so teams in each division. But what if there are a total of 300 teams, distributed into three divisions randomly, (probably uniformly randomly,) and you're comparing "groups" of teams in each division instead of each individual team? (e.g. the average strength of the top-10 in each division, then the next-10 in each div, then the next 10... so on...) It's actually highly unlikely that average quality of the top-10 in each division differ significantly.

    &gt; Also, I can't imagine JMZ taking on all five Greats!

    Only because of the Greats' reputations.

    &gt; However, if my opinion is that the 6M ~= 3 HSDS Shaolin
    &gt; Elders, I don't think you can disprove it either.

    You're right that I can't really disprove it. However, seeing how there are LDShovers in DGSD rank much weaker than the 6M, and that the only people clearly above 6M in DGSD are all in LDA, and on the other hand, the 3 Shaolin Elders were, individually, much weaker than ZWJ, I think it's unlikely true.

    &gt; Can you imagine ZWJ taking on five Shaolin Elders
    &gt;(like JMZ taking on five 6M)?

    ZWJ would lose. The fight between him and the 3 Shaolin Elder monks + the formation was virtually a tie. But what does it have to do w/ 6M vs 3 Elders?

    &gt; Can you imagine ZWJ destroying even three Shaolin
    &gt; Elders with the same EASE KF showed in beating Ding Chun
    &gt; Chau, MoYung Fu, and IronHead?

    In the novel, initially KF backed them away very easily. But he later thought to himself that he would lose if the fight lasted longer. But then, the special combination of MYF and IronHead was a good one against KF because IronHead had inner power as strong as KF's and MYF's expertise in techniques were as good as KF's. They sort of made up for each other's weaknesses.

    &gt; In the fight between KF and MYB, it was said that MYB
    &gt; still felt pain.

    He felt a shock through his body.

    &gt; Why didn't he just get shoved back? (Did
    &gt; GLFW feel pain when YD pushed him?) Is it because KF
    &gt; actually had higher inner power than MYB?

    If the force (from XF's attacks, for example) is charging towards you at a very fast speed, your body doesn't have the time needed to react to it. That's why you're not shoved back, but instead have to absorb all the energy with your body. And this "speed" of the force has a lot to do with how much inner power you have.

    &gt; ..And protecting your sorry a** from certain death.

    &gt; KF or a Great?

    Between these two, KF! But, like you, I'd pick the JM if he's available.

    There was actually a discussion before about how you'd pick if you are able to choose 5 characters as your bodyguards. Someguy picked 5 girls... well, he had a different idea of what a "bodyguard" is in mind...

    Lav wrote:
    &gt; In the case of Zhang Wuji, Jin Yong wrote Dagong Gaocheng
    &gt; "completed" while Jueyuan was "Dacheng"(finished), you then
    &gt; concluded that their internal power must be the same.

    Sigh... "Da Cheng" is short for "Da Gong Gao Cheng". It's like arguing over "wipe" and "scrape" all over again...

    Also, Z3F also stated JueYuan had reached the level he saw in ZWJ.

    &gt; In
    &gt; the case of Yiyang Finger, Jin Yong claerly wrote that
    &gt; Yideng reached the ultimate peak, while Abbot Benyin
    &gt; confessed that his level of Yiyang Finger has only reached
    &gt; Class 4 and that he couldn't even imagine Class 1. Now,
    &gt; I'm not saying that you're using double standards but if we
    &gt; really have to be "by tha book", isn't it quite safe to assume
    &gt; that Yideng's level of Yiyang Finger is higher than the Six
    &gt; Monks of Tianlong Temple?

    No. Because the phrase DunFungChoGik is used to described people w/ great achievement in a skill in general, and that he has reached his own peak/limit, it does not imply specifically that he has reached "level 1". And this kind of description is relative to other people in his era.

    &gt; Hong
    &gt; Qigong was much older than Xiao Feng when he appeared in
    &gt; LOCH and surely he can't perform the palm techniques as
    &gt; powerful as Xiao Feng who was in his prime.

    No. When H7G first appeared, it's said that he's middle age. I'll assume he's in his mid-40s, still in his prime in the JY universe. He didn't reach "old" age until RoCH.

    And also, I can't read your Chinese quote...

    &gt; from the level of extreme hardness it has produced ultimate
    &gt; softness, this is the Divine Mastery which Hong Qigong
    &gt; himself could not conceive in the past.

    He merely changed the characteristics of the technique, but from a practical standpoint, his so-called "improved" version did not help him defeat anyone that H7G couldn't defeat.

    &gt; On the other side Xiao Feng singlehandedly took on Murong
    &gt; Fu and You Tanzhi.

    This is not a logical comparison, because XF and GJ were fighting different groups of opponents, and you cannot prove which group was stronger.

    Also, like I said earlier YTZ + MRF matched well against XF because they made up for each other's weaknesses. This is a very specific case. It created a specific match-up problem. but if it were 2 YTZ or 2 MRF versus XF, XF could very well take advantage of there weaknesses. So XF weaker than YTZ + MRF doesn't mean he's weaker than 2 fighters in the class of MRF.

    &gt; From an martial artist' point of view, Guo Jing's
    &gt; style can be considered better.

    In the opinion of those who also follow GJ's style...

    GJ's style emphasized on energy conservation, which might not be useful against a single opponent who has stronger inner power to begin with.

    &gt; Xiao Feng and Guo Jing
    &gt; have totally different martial arts backgrounds, and
    &gt; totally different characters. But the thing is: Guo Jing
    &gt; can fight the Xiao Feng way if he had to, but it would be
    &gt; very difficult for Xiao Feng to fight like Guo Jing.

    Not necessarily. In DGSD, XF was described as being able to have both "hardness" and "softness" in his attacks, although, to be fair, he wasn't using the 18 Palm at the time.

    And I'm afraid the fact GJ might be able to fight in "aggressive" style doesn't necessarily help him much. It's like a b-ball players who can play two positions, does it necessarily make him better than 1-position player? More versatile, maybe, but not necessarily better.

    &gt; But in DGSD, when
    &gt; Duan Yu fought Murong Fu at the Shaolin Temple, the
    &gt; distance between them was also a little more than 3
    &gt; meters.

    No. I don't believe it was explicitly mentioned how far. And DY knew no kungfu, so he didn't always know how to use his inner power fully.

    &gt; Duan Yu is maybe the best example of LDA, yet, his range
    &gt; is the same as that of Yideng, who is categorized in the
    &gt; LDS Category.

    When XF attacked MRB and sent a shock through MRB's arm, he was said to be "several tens of feet away", which means 30 feet for more, or roughly 9+ meters.

    &gt; While Xiao Feng's palm strokes could reach a
    &gt; further distance. I believe that the reason for this
    &gt; is that it is more difficult to channel finger power than
    &gt; palm power. This is the same in real life.

    I agree. But the Golden Wheel Monk's palm attacks also reach roughly 10 feet... (3+ meters)

    Again, I can't read your Chinese quote, but I'm guessing you're talking about the monk blowing a piece of leaf away w/ his finger "wind"? Well, in that case, it was only a leaf...

    &gt; at the Battle of Chongyang Shrine, the Five Masters
    &gt; hit Xiaolongnu with their Seven Star Union while at
    &gt; the same time Golden Wheel Monk hit her with his
    &gt; wheel. After the impact Xiaolongnu still stood, so
    &gt; we can say that the power of both strikes was roughly
    &gt; equal.

    No, it just mean the difference between the the GWM's attack and the 5 Taoists is less than XLN's own resistence to falling. For example, assuming GWM was stronger than 5T, so XLN normally would fall backward. But she didn't want to, so naturally she would also resist that and try to keep herself from falling backward... which implies XLN + 5T &gt; GWM.

    &gt; At the same time the three leaders Qi, Yun and Gong
    &gt; felt a soft but strong power and realised that Song
    &gt; would only have to use his other sleave and the
    &gt; combined power would have killed them.

    That's only because the three were using inner power to resist, and SYQ almost "tricked" them into having a fire-deviation with their own inner power. It's similar to what LHC experienced when he was at MeiZhuang.

    <font size="1">[ January 08, 2003: Message edited by: Kenny ]</font>

  12. #92
    Senior Member TigerWong's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"No. I meant "shouldn't" be identical. If something is lost and then re-invented, it shouldn't be identical, even though the main characteristics should be the same." - Kenny</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Then I'm not sure what your point was with that sentence. Because at the time, I was wondering if the LDA part of 18 Dragon Slaying Palms was lost along with KF (assuming one didn't see LDA as just a by-product of inner power).

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"It's actually highly unlikely that average quality of the top-10 in each division differ significantly." - Kenny</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I still don't understand how one can assume that the Greats must equal the 6M just because the Greats &lt; KF et al. and so were the 6M. I mean, theres a big gap between JMZ and the 6M. Why is it so improbable that the Greats could fall within that gap? Oh well, maybe it's just me....

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"ZWJ would lose. The fight between him and the 3 Shaolin Elder monks + the formation was virtually a tie. But what does it have to do w/ 6M vs 3 Elders?" - Kenny</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    My posts may be confusing because I jump from point to point, sometimes questioning things you've claimed and sometimes questioning other people's claims... Because I'm not really arguing against you, just trying to understand all this for myself.

    In this particular case, I was not making a case for 6M = 3 Elders but rather KF &gt; Greats. Because even if I were to lower the power of the 6M to the level of the 3 Elders instead of the level of the Greats that you proposed, ZWJ could not defeat the 3 Elders the same way JMZ could defeat the 6M. So even that lends support to KF &gt; Greats because ZWJ ~= Greats. So one would need to lower the 6M to an even lower, and probably unlikely, level before one can conceive of a Great taking on 5 6M the way JMZ did.

    Or raise the level of the 3 Elders high enough. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"> So, never mind...

    <font size="1">[ January 08, 2003: Message edited by: TigerWong ]</font>

  13. #93
    Senior Member Athena's Avatar
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    To be honest after discussing this topic for almost a week. I think that LDS and LDA are basically something you came up with and isn't a solid criterium. I can't come up with any "solid" evidence to say that those examples I mentioned were without physical contact. BUT YOU CAN'T BE SURE EITHER THAT THERE WAS PHYSICAL CONTACT!
    So dismissing my examples that easily won't do for me! Same as accepting the fact that "Greats" are almost as strong as 6 Monks of CDT because of your LDS and LDA theory. (WHICH BY THE WAY HAS NOT CONVINCED ONE BIT). With all due respect you read the examples the way you want it to be (i.e. twist them for the benifit of your theory).
    Also you're using every day situations to illustrate your ideas up till now I haven't said anything about it. However if you commented on my every day life example on speaking. (Saying there is a difference in real life situations and wuxia fiction) I find your examples sometimes the same, using baseball, equations, formulas, etc.

    Anyway when Guo Jing challenged Li MoChou for the first time he used his internal energy to generate a few loud whistles. At that time he didn't know how strong Li was, so if you're saying that JiuMo Zhi would likely preserve energy for any potential fights. Then why would Guo used whistles to challenge Li for a fight. (Don't say because Guo is too dumb. That would be an unacceptable answer).
    Also when Zhang WuJi faced the people from the orthodox six schools, at one point they all began laughing Zhang used a form of gentle talking to shout down the laughing. Even a dense man like Zhang WuJi must realise that martial power is the only way to solve this conflict for now.
    The second time was when he and the rest of the Ming Cult members entered the empty ShaoLin Monastery. (Motive was to find out what happened to Yin LiTing and possibly a confrontation with ShaoLin). When at that time they only saw that the main hall was a bit chaotic. Anyhow Zhang WuJi used a form of gentle talking to say that he and members of the Ming Cult had arrived to pay respects to abbot KongWen.
    If you say that gentle talking and using internal energy to generate your voice consumes (a lot of) energy why would Guo Jing and Zhang WuJi used it before engaging in a potential battle. Don't say that in the third example Zhang WuJi had the entire Ming Cult as backing so a bit of lost to his internal energy wouldn't be so harmful. It's true that in order to make your voice carry a long distance internal strenght does play a role (one use it to generate your voice, however is it that consuming as you say it is. That is questionable!)

    Back to LDA and LDS, Zhang WuJi using QiShang Fist to knock down a tree. The novel just stated Zhang WuJi walked towards the tree and aimed his fist and
    BANG! the tree flew away for about 7 metres or so. WAS THERE PHYSICAL CONTACT? Not mentioned but you're saying there is therefore this must be LDS or even conventional. Is that a fair conclusion by yourself? I don't think so.
    Also when Zhang SanFeng used his right palm to disperse those 2 monks, so you're saying he didn't use palm energy but he used magic, or cosmic powers?

    Yang Guo PROBABLY DID NOT WANT TO KILL those 4. He wanted to find out what they were saying about his father. You are saying that that was just LDS because they weren't injured or killed.

    Mind you that when Xiao Feng encounterd both Yun ZhongHe and Ding ChunQiu his intentions were at least to severly injure these 2 vile men. One is a infamous rapist who deserves to die, the other is a narcissistic, arrogant visicious old man who uses poison to kill innocent people.
    Well, if I was Xiao Feng I would probably use my full potential to harm these 2 men.
    Also MuRong Bo was responsible for Mrs. Xiao's death perhaps that's why he would throw in a powerful palm against him. I'm not sure I'm just deducting here I'm sure you'll find something wrong here as well and nitpick on it.

    Back to A Er and Zhang WuJi, the reason why I assumed that there was a distance in between them was from LOCH chapter 21. Jin Yong wrote that highly skilled martial arts experts didn't let opponents near them in a fight. However you would probably argue that this wouldn't apply when your competing internal power or competing stance energy.
    Also those 2 men who attacked Guo Jing in the ChongYang Shrine you say it like they were about 1 metre away from the wall. What makes you certain it wasn't 6, 7 metres. They leapt back twice (chinese character "deng" ; jump, prance gallop).
    In the end I would like to say that LDA and LDS are up till now basically the same thing. The top in the LOCH trilogy not using this so-called LDA (you would like to see) doesn't mean that they didn't know how to do it. Perhaps the situation just didn't occur! OR PERHAPS THE IMAGERY, DISCRIPTIONS OF FIGHTS IN DGSD ARE MORE SPECTACULAR CAUSING ONE TO BELIEVE THAT THE LEVEL OF MARTIAL ARTS IS MUCH HIGHER THAT IT ACTUALLY IS.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

  14. #94
    Senior Member Athena's Avatar
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    Reading back on my post I realise my tone was really *****y. I AM VERY SORRY!
    I just had to deal with some quite unpleasant personal problems.
    I apologize again for my *****y tone and if I have offended anyone I am very sorry.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

  15. #95
    Senior Member Athena's Avatar
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    My tone in my previous post may sound unfriendly, sarcastic and harsh. I apologize for that, BUT I still stick to my comments made earlier! I mean every word of it.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

  16. #96
    Senior Member Laviathan's Avatar
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    To Kenny:

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> If the "technique" requires multiple fighters, it's effectively a formation, regardless of how it's labeled in the book.
    </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Not really, a Martial Arts formation "zhenfa" is derived from Military Formations and requires specific footwork and patterns, the persons making up the formation each have a certain position. The Seven Star Union of Quanzhen does not really resemble a formation. It is more a technique like the one used by the Five Uglies of the Tibetan Border at Huashan.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> And NMX wasn't injured! </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Well, in the book it was told that he managed to avoid the big impact of power. That's why he made a nasty fall but was not injured.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> "Da Cheng" is short for "Da Gong Gao Cheng". It's like arguing over "wipe" and "scrape" all over again... </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    No, Dacheng (Great Achievement) is the better form of Xiaocheng (Small Achievement), how come you'd think it is short for "Dagong Gaocheng"? The term "Xiaocheng" is also frequently used in Jin Yong novels, then that must be short for what, "Xiaogong Gaocheng"? <IMG SRC="smilies/yikes.gif" border="0"> BTW, you're from Engineering, I study Language and Political Science, so we're bound to have different point of views. Let's just agree to disagree.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> No. Because the phrase DunFungChoGik is used to described people w/ great achievement in a skill in general, and that he has reached his own peak/limit, it does not imply specifically that he has reached "level 1". And this kind of description is relative to other people in his era. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    No, the term Dengfeng Zaoji in this case is used together with "Luhuo Chunqing" specifically to describe the art instead of the person. It was said that Yideng's Yiyang Finger has "reached the peak of perfection, attained the level of perfection".

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> This is not a logical comparison, because XF and GJ were fighting different groups of opponents, and you cannot prove which group was stronger. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    True. But I just wanted to compare styles, not the fights. But if I would compare the fights...

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> Also, like I said earlier YTZ + MRF matched well against XF because they made up for each other's weaknesses. This is a very specific case. It created a specific match-up problem. but if it were 2 YTZ or 2 MRF versus XF, XF could very well take advantage of there weaknesses. So XF weaker than YTZ + MRF doesn't mean he's weaker than 2 fighters in the class of MRF. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    True. But it's still a fact that You Tanzhi's techniques were inferior to Xiao Feng's while Murong Fu's inner strength was much weaker than Xiao's. While up to that point in ROCH, Golden Wheel Monk's inner power was still stronger than Guo's, plus he had the help of two martial arts experts who had reached a high level in both technique and power. Besides, You and Murong didn't know eachother, their coperation was pure coincidence. You's inexperience was plain to see. While in the case of Guo Jing, all his three opponents were experienced warriors who had already worked together for quite some time. And in both cases there was hostility between the "bad guys": Murong Fu saw You Tanzhi as his potential rival, while Golden Wheel Monk, Nimoxing and Xiaoxiangzi strived for the title No. 1 Warrior of Mongolia.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> GJ's style emphasized on energy conservation, which might not be useful against a single opponent who has stronger inner power to begin with.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Huh? Not sure what you mean. Golden Wheel Monk was 20 years older than Guo Jing and in the novel it was stated that his inner power was stronger than Guo.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> And I'm afraid the fact GJ might be able to fight in "aggressive" style doesn't necessarily help him much. It's like a b-ball players who can play two positions, does it necessarily make him better than 1-position player? More versatile, maybe, but not necessarily better. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I'm aware of that, like I said: it doesn't mean that in actual combat Guo Jing can defeat Xiao Feng.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> No. I don't believe it was explicitly mentioned how far. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    It was stated that "the distance was more than zhangxu". Probably about 4 meters. Of course you can say that MORE than 3+ meters could also mean 15 meters, but if that's the case, why did Jin Yong specifically wrote zhangxu?

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> And DY knew no kungfu, so he didn't always know how to use his inner power fully. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    He didn't ALWAYS know, but this time he did: chapter 41, last sentence.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> Again, I can't read your Chinese quote, but I'm guessing you're talking about the monk blowing a piece of leaf away w/ his finger "wind"? Well, in that case, it was only a leaf... </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Yep, it's that scene, and yeah, it was just a leave...

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> That's only because the three were using inner power to resist, and SYQ almost "tricked" them into having a fire-deviation with their own inner power. It's similar to what LHC experienced when he was at MeiZhuang. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    OK, so only pointblank powerblasts la Xiao Feng can be considered LDA, while Yideng's Yiyang Finger can only be LDS, and "killing people with internal energy by making their organs malfunction without physical contact" does not belong in either category... <IMG SRC="smilies/confused.gif" border="0"> And what about moving those tea-cups? Circus tricks?

    Aren't LDA and LDS actually one and the same, LDA being somewhat more powerful LDS and LDS being somewhat weaker LDA?
    A A k k A d @ H

  17. #97
    Senior Member someguy44's Avatar
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    I can't beleive I just spent 2 hours reading through most of these posts. I'm kind of busy these days so that's why I haven't been posting.

    Anyway, I just couldn't resist this thread so I like to get a few things off my mind.

    It seems some of you are way too concerned with semantics. I for one am not that crazy about it. What is real is real and just because if a person "thinks" it's real doesn't make it so. It's like that argument I had with Spirit of Honour over the whole ghost issue in the open debate forum.

    To Lav: Sorry, but I really don't like your way of assuming Sat Por Teen being more powerful than the greats and some dgsd fighters just because of the fact that he was able to soundly defeat the next best 2 fighters in the novel whereas XF and KJ/YG can't. The discrepancy between Sat Por Teen and the 2 lords were too high whereas the discrepancy for the examples you gave was very narrow (if at all). Unless there's concrete evidence (or logical ones) to support that the 2 lords were in a class that was comparable or slightly weaker than the greats of the triology (or certain DGSD fighters), it's just not logical to assume it. Still, that doesn't mean he couldn't be more powerful than them. It's just your exampling that I don't like. However, you did say it's your personal opinon and I respect you for that.

    Athena, you first stated that the occasion for LDAttacks never came up for the greats and company. I kind of find it hard to beleive that with the personality of West Venom that the opportunity never came up for him. Also, H7G killed over 200 people (if this is correct) so again, it never came up? As for your examples, I was beginning to beleive them until I saw Kenny's counters.

    As for Kenny coming up with LDA, I don't buy it. I've seen other posters (namely Kwok) used this in their arguments before when comparing DGSD fighters to triology ones. I've also seen other readers whom beleived that there is a wide discrepency between the top DGSD fighters and the top triology fighters. There must be a reason for them thinking this way and I think it has a lot to do with LDAs.

    And one final note to Athena. I must first apologize for what I'm about to write for it might sound offensive in nature. Athena, when I read that you find it hard to swallow that Cheung 3 Fung (Canton Pingyin) is roughly equal to the 6M, I think it's your personal bias or respect for C3F. That might cloud your judgement. You can't rank a fighter according to their reputation or your own personal respect/bias towards him/her. I used to think YG was the best fighter amongst the whole triology, but of course that was just my own personal bias. Like Kenny said, the fame of 9 yin and the fact the greats are label as greats doesn't necessarily make them more powerful or equivalent fighters than those of the DGSD era.

    Also, I want to find out something about the fight between Hui Jook and Kau Mor Chi. how come no one mentioned that Kau Mor Chi was able to fight Hui Jook to a draw even though Hui Jook had the inner power of Moe Ngai Zhi and 90% each of both LCS and Tone Low. It's fair to assume that due to Hui Jook's lack of experience, he was only able to tie Kau Mor Chi. Still, it's the 3 combine powers of the three elders. This kind of leads me to beleive that the 3 elders, indivdually in terms of inner power wasn't really that much greater than Kau's.
    No longer walking amongst the living...

  18. #98
    Senior Member TigerWong's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"To Lav: Sorry, but I really don't like your way of assuming Sat Por Teen being more powerful than the greats and some dgsd fighters just because of the fact that he was able to soundly defeat the next best 2 fighters in the novel whereas XF and KJ/YG can't." - Someguy44</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Kenny's argument for Sek Por Teen &gt; Greats ran along similiar lines...

    "I don't want to go into too much details, but mainly, he (*SPT*) seemed to be much stronger than, say, Cheung Sam or Lee Sei, even more so that a Great is stronger than say, Yau Chu Gei... And I'm more impressed with CS/LS than I'm w/ YCG. Hence SPT &gt; Greats." - Kenny

    Sometimes impressions are all you have. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"Also, H7G killed over 200 people (if this is correct) so again, it never came up?" - Someguy44</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I think Athena meant not coming up in the novel. Jin Yong never spelled out all 200+ of H7G's fights.

  19. #99
    Senior Member Athena's Avatar
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    To someguy: To start with no one can proof or disprook that the examples I used were this so-called LDS and not LDA. Jin Yong didn't fully describe the scenen he left to our imagination. If you feel that Kenny's subjective opinion is correct you're free to say that I'm mistaken. But it's still a subjective opinion of one reader. If you have read Kenny's counters perhaps you should also re-read my recounters.
    Kenny is using the LDA and LDS as a criterion. That's fine with me.
    And I'm using the gentle talking as one of my criterions.
    Also as a linguist myself semantics is an important aspect in language acquisition and transferring information. However some people don't agree on this view, that too is okay with me.
    About Zhang SanFeng, the reasons why I would say that is because:
    He is the founder of the second top martial arts school in the realm. WuDang.
    He invented, created a serie of martial arts theories, techniques that became an equal to the famous ShaoLin in a short period of time. His talent for martial arts is excellent; he managed to learn a few percent of JiuYang ZhenJing just by listening to his teacher JueYuan. He learnt the Arhat fist style just by looking at the those little statues.
    As for the 5 monks of Celestial Dragon Temple. I'm not saying that they are not talented but not as talented as Zhang. If they were as talented as Zhang they would at least reach a higher level in YiYang Finger.
    But this again is very subjective!
    Also I agree with Lav's comment on YiDeng's YiYang Finger. Jin Yong used those characters to desribe YiYang Finger of Southern Emperor and not just YiDeng.
    When JiuMo Zhi grapped XuZhu's hand he felt that his opponent's level of XiaoWu XiangGong was far more superior to his own.
    JiuMo Zhi's internal energy was XiaoWu XiangGong if he said that he felt that XuZhu's level was far higher than his. Isn't it logical to assume that the 3 martial arts brother and sisters of XiaoYao were at least a bit higher than JiuMo Zhi.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

  20. #100

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    Since all we are dealing with here is impressions and opinions, I'm just going to throw my hat into the ring and give my opinion. (I stress that it is my opinions and mine alone.)

    I think that the top DGSD fighters are head and shoulders above the top L/RoCH fighters. I also believe that Z3F's skills are on par with that of the Greats of L/RoCH. And I attribute the reason to why WuDang became so famous and powerful so fast is b/c of a power vacuum created by the passing of the Greats (after all, E'Mei, founded by Guo Xiang, who is in no way a top fighter in any era, became the 3rd most famous and powerful sect very fast as well. A clear indication that the fame of a sect does not necessarily reflect the skill of the founder).

    That's just the impression I have, so sue me if you disagree. <IMG SRC="smilies/angrystick.gif" border="0">
    春花秋月几时了,
    往事知多少?
    小楼昨夜又东风,
    故国不堪回首明月中.
    雕栏玉砌应犹在,
    只是朱颜改.
    问君能有几多愁,
    恰似一江春水向东流.
    --南唐后主,李煜.

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